Did Paul Die With Christ?

[Samie]

Hi forum mates;

Glad to be back and be engaged in a lively bible study and discussion in this forum.

In 2 Cor 5:14, 15, Paul says that ALL died when Christ died. I guess he includes himself in the ALL because he said in Gal 2:20 he had been crucified with Christ.

Who do you think comprise the ALL who died when Christ died?

1. Only believers died when He died because . . .

2. Both believers and non-believers, because . . .

3. None of the above because . . .

Please supply what you think is the best reason for your answer.

[Robert]

# 3  Or corporate, fallen humanity died in Christ.

Titus 3:4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward mankind appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of rebirth and the renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly in  Jesus Christ our Savior....

[Samie]

By fallen humanity, do you mean all humans? If Yes, then that's the same as #2. But if No, then what exactly do you mean?

[Robert]

Christ is God.  He has always been God.  There was never a time that He was not God.  He has no beginning, but at the incarnation Christ's Divinity took upon Himself our fallen life from the womb of Mary.  That life belongs to all of us because it is Adam's fallen life replicated billions of times over.  That life is termed our corporate fallen, human life.

[Samie]

NAS Ephesians 2:11-16

¹¹ Therefore remember, that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision " by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- 

¹² remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 

¹³ But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 

¹⁴ For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 

^{15 1}by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 

¹⁶ and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.

It appears from the above verses that the creation of the ONE NEW MAN – the Body, Humanity; the Head, Jesus Christ – was accomplished at the cross. When the Head died, the Body likewise died, hence when Christ died, ALL died (2 Cor 5:14, 15). And when Christ resurrected, His Body was made alive TOGETHER with Him (Col 2:13; Eph 2:4-6). Hence all are spiritually alive; all had been empowered. But only overcomers will NOT be blotted out from the book of life.

You are saying that it was our corporate human life that died with Christ. Ergo, it was our corporate human life that was resurrected TOGETHER with Him. Do you mean all of humanity are all spiritually alive?

 If Yes, then, except for semantics, we are on the same page. But if No, then how could Christ’s life, death and resurrection benefit only the believers and not every one else?

[Robert]

48 minutes ago, Samie said:

You are saying that it was our corporate human life that died with Christ. Ergo, it was our corporate human life that was resurrected TOGETHER with Him. Do you mean all of humanity are all spiritually alive?

Our corporate, fallen life died eternally.  That's the 2nd death.

In place of this God raised Christ with a glorified corporate humanity, free from mortality and indwelling sin.  This "new creation" is unlike our former life we received from Adam.  In the resurrection we will be as the angels, which are spirit beings.  Flesh and blood will not enter heaven. 

[Samie]

Do you mean that because of this "new creation", all of humanity are now all spiritually alive?

[Robert]

2 hours ago, Samie said:

Do you mean that because of this "new creation", all of humanity are now all spiritually alive?

Eph 2:6 And God raised us (i.e.,  our new creation) up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus...

Col 3:3 For you (i.e., your old, Adamic life) died, and your life (i.e., your new creation) is now hidden with Christ in God.

 

[Samie]

Can you give me a direct response please?

I mean, a simple Yes or No, if possible. I am just curious to know what your position really is. And a simple Yes or No will be sufficient for my curiosity. A Yes answer will tell me we are on the same page.  But if you are hesitant to give it, for whatever reason, then I won't press you for it.

Again, do you believe that all of humanity are now spiritually alive?

[Robert]

3 hours ago, Samie said:

Do you mean that because of this "new creation", all of humanity are now all spiritually alive?

Yes, in Christ in the heavenly places. 

Eph 2:5 "We were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)"

 

[Samie]

OK. Thank you, brother. I guess, we are on the same page, except perhaps for some minor issues in semantics.

[Robert]

However, while the human race has been reconciled and stands complete "in Christ" before God and His law in the most holy place, some will reject their need of Christ's High Priest work.  In the judgment these will have to stand before the law without an intercessor. 

[Samie]

I prefer to call to call those who will not make it to eternal life as non-overcomers. Their names were blotted out from the book of life.

[Gerr]

Answer:   . Only believers died when He died because .in .ESV | ‎Ga 2:20, Paul says,  "I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."   Christ cannot be living in the unbeliever since He has not been invited in or accepted as LORD and Savior.  Therefore self has not been crucified or dead; it is very much alive and kicking. 

[Samie]

5 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

Answer:   . Only believers died when He died

Hi Kabayan;

Paul was not yet a believer when Christ was crucified. Not one among the Galatians or Corintians were likewise believers when Christ died. But there on the cross, the One New Man - Christ the Head, humanity the Body - was created.  But if only believers died with Christ, it follows that since there were no "believers" yet when He died, then no one died with Him and the One New Man has a Head but without a Body.

No, the Body existed on the cross. It was in His Body that Christ carried humanity's sins (1 Pet 2:24), for He is the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the believers only? No, the sin of the world. That Body on the cross was us all - Jews and Gentiles - with all our sins. Having died with Him, we were likewise resurrected together with Him, born again into a new hope of life eternal. Attached to the Head, the Body now has His Power to overcome evil with good. And only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life.

[Gerr]

Jesus was the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world. As soon as sin reared its ugly head, there was already a Savior.  The OT believers looked forward to the reality at the Cross, and every NT believer and afterwards look back to that reality.   

[Robert]

17 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

Answer:   . Only believers died when He died because .in .ESV | ‎Ga 2:20, Paul says,  "I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."   Christ cannot be living in the unbeliever since He has not been invited in or accepted as LORD and Savior.  Therefore self has not been crucified or dead; it is very much alive and kicking. 

Here you are writing on the conversion experience.  And yes that applies to the believer, but what Christ did 2000 years ago applies to all men. 

"One died for all, and therefore all died." 2 Cor 5:14

Christ's death as the son of man (the last Adam) was a corporate death.  That's why Paul wrote, "Our old self (our Adamic life) was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with..." (Rom 6:6) If this applies to us as believers we have a problem because we still retain indwelling sin within our bodies.

 

[Robert]

This might help:

http://www.jacksequeira.org/2phases.htm

[Gerr]

4 hours ago, Robert said:

Here you are writing on the conversion experience.  And yes that applies to the believer, but what Christ did 2000 years ago applies to all men. 

"One died for all, and therefore all died." 2 Cor 5:14

Christ's death as the son of man (the last Adam) was a corporate death.  That's why Paul wrote, "Our old self (our Adamic life) was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with..." (Rom 6:6) If this applies to us as believers we have a problem because we still retain indwelling sin within our bodies.

 

Who are the "all" that Paul was referring to?  ESV | ‎2 Co 5:14 "For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died;  ‎15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised."  Are unbelievers controlled by the love of or for Christ?  Are unbelievers living for Him or for themselves?  It is obvious to me that Paul was talking to and about followers  of Christ.  There is a sense in which you are correct - Christ died for every single person who has ever been born or will be born, but are all saved?  The Bible is very clear that many will be lost.  If the benefits  of the atoning death applies to unbelievers as well, then they can't be lost.  It would be double jeopardy for the unbeliever to pay with his own life and debt that was already paid for by Someone else.  Paul makes it ever more clear whom he was talking about when he said, ESV | ‎2 Co 5:17 "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."

[Robert]

4 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

Who are the "all" that Paul was referring to?  ESV | ‎2 Co 5:14 "For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died;  ‎15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised."  Are unbelievers controlled by the love of or for Christ?  Are unbelievers living for Him or for themselves?  It is obvious to me that Paul was talking to and about followers  of Christ.  There is a sense in which you are correct - Christ died for every single person who has ever been born or will be born, but are all saved?  The Bible is very clear that many will be lost.  If the benefits  of the atoning death applies to unbelievers as well, then they can't be lost.  It would be double jeopardy for the unbeliever to pay with his own life and debt that was already paid for by Someone else.  Paul makes it ever more clear whom he was talking about when he said, ESV | ‎2 Co 5:17 "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."

Legally speaking Christ has saved all men, but not all men will accept His redemptive work.  These will be lost.

[Samie]

The wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23). So if Adam died that same day he fell into sin, then, he would have paid for the sin he committed. But that's his eternal end. He would have paid for his sin God hates, but God would have eternally lost the sinner He loves.

So God implemented the plan He devised before the foundation of the world, before the beginning of time (2 Tim 1:8-10). He made a way whereby man might not only be able to pay for his sin committed but also at the same time have another shot at life eternal. The death of an animal that same day Adam sinned, as with all animal sacrifices of the old covenant, pointed forward to the death on the cross of the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world. No wonder, Christ is called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world!!!

On the cross, God through Christ created a One New Man: Christ the Head, humanity - Jews & Gentiles - the Body. Thus, He carried humanity's sin in His Body on the tree (1 Pet 2:24), because humanity was His Body on the cross (Eph 2:11-19). When the Head died, the Body died (2 Cor 5:14, 15; Heb 2:9); when the Head resurrected, the Body was resurrected TOGETHER with Him (Eph 2:4-6; Col 2:13), born again into a living hope of life eternal (1 Pet 1:3).

Being part of His Body, we are In Him Who is our Strength (Phil 4:13) for overcoming evil with good (Rom 12:21), and given faith (Rom 12:3) so we could please God (Heb 11:6), we have His Power to overcome. And overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5).

[Samie]

23 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

There is a sense in which you are correct - Christ died for every single person who has ever been born or will be born, but are all saved? 

Yes. 

Are all being saved? Yes. 

BUT, will all be saved? NO. Only overcomers will be allowed entry into the heavenly portals. Rev 3:5;  21:27

23 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

The Bible is very clear that many will be lost.

Yes, because instead of overcoming evil with good, they let evil overcome them. Being non-overcomers, their names will be blotted out from the book of life.

 

23 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

If the benefits  of the atoning death applies to unbelievers as well, then they can't be lost.

Unless blotted out from the book of life, they can't be lost.  But Christ will blot out non-overcomers from the book of life.

 

19 hours ago, Robert said:

It would be double jeopardy for the unbeliever to pay with his own life and debt that was already paid for by Someone else.

No man's paying anything already paid for by the Savior. People are already in Christ, part of His Body. Unless Christ Himself removes a person from being part of His Body, he is heaven-bound. People thrown into the lake of fire are those whose names were blotted out from the book of life. But overcomers will NOT be blotted out from it.

Quote

KJV Revelation 2:7 . . . To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

KJV Revelation 2:11 . . . He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

KJV Revelation 2:17 . . . To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

KJV Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

KJV Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

KJV Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

KJV Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

KJV Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.