The immaculate conception - a Catholic apologist answers

[Robert]

Quote

Fundamentalists’ chief reason for objecting to the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s consequent sinlessness is that we are told that "all have sinned" (Rom. 3:23). Besides, they say, Mary said her "spirit rejoices in God my Savior" (Luke 1:47), and only a sinner needs a Savior. 

 

Let’s take the second citation first. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation. 

The age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they "had done nothing either good or bad" (Rom. 9:11) [ Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004 ]

[Robert]

43 minutes ago, Robert said:

 

Let’s take the second citation first. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation. 

I can't find this utter nonsense supported in the Bible, but then again as a Protestant I have already been reduced to being called a "fundamentalist".  Perhaps this is why the Pope Francis recently stated that "Fundamentalism is a sickness that is in all religions"?

No where can I find that Mary was preserved from the stain of original sin.  Now you must be careful with the term "original sin", because Catholic dogma really defines it as "original guilt", but that's another subject.

Anyway, I find nothing - I mean nothing in the Bible that states that Mary was preserved from Adam's fallen state.  Nothing!  And notice Bisphop Brom offers not one iota Scripture to support his dogma.

[Robert]

56 minutes ago, Robert said:

The age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they "had done nothing either good or bad" (Rom. 9:11) [ Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004 ]

Now Bishop Brom is attempting to answer the second charge:   "Fundamentalists’ chief reason for objecting to the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s consequent sinlessness is that we are told that 'all have sinned' (Rom. 3:23)."

Now what does Romans 3:23 state?  All have sinned and all are falling short of God's agape love.  

It is true that infants are not born guilty of sin because "sin (transgression) is not imputed when there is no law." [Rom 5:13] But, this does not mean they are not sinners.  They aren't guilty sinners and therefore willful transgressors, but again they are still sinners and they have within them Adam's fallen nature.

Mary was a sinner and she passed to Christ (the son of man) what she herself and received from her mother - a humanity indwelt with iniquity (our bent-to-self).

"For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist." 2 John 1:7

 

[Robert]

 

[Gerr]

When one strays away from Scripture, then just about any theory or doctrine is possible.

[Green Cochoa]

The Bible teaches us what is necessary for us to know regarding this doctrine.  Here are two important points in brief.

 

1) Sin does not require willful, conscious decision; it can be a sin of ignorance or a presumptuous sin.  There is more than one kind of sin.  Furthermore, thoughts, not merely actions, can be sinful, as taught by Jesus regarding lust and hatred.  So it is therefore clear that sin can precede the "age of reason."

 

2) Mary's conception was unique.  It was not in the normal fleshly pattern, with a man.  It was unique in another way too.  The Bible says "a body hast thou prepared me." (Hebrews 10:5)  Mrs. White refers to this as well: "'A body,' said Christ, 'hast thou prepared me' (Hebrews 10:5). But He did not come in human form until the fullness of time had expired. Then He came to our world, a babe in Bethlehem."  {1SM 250.1}  

 

So the "immaculate" conception was really just the development of human flesh, weakened by thousands of years of sin, which Christ adopted the day of His birth in Bethlehem, at the "fullness of time," a term reserved for the birth, not the conception.

[Raphael]

My opinion is that Christ had no genetic imperfections for character formations.. But physical formation yes, with a but.. That is not with birth defects that we know ahh.. Just weakened and smaller physical stature..

Plus Christ was a total already existing person and individual that was only incarnated into human flesh.. His (prior) existance of character, mind, and memory were and are completely intact when he was and is in human form.. As Son of God and more elder and more superior then Lucifer.. Christ came to earth bringing not only the fullness of life experience, but upbringing, study, skill and knowledge as well of that mindboggling level.. Maybe scifi stories and movies are the only one capable of coming close to be able to describe such illustrations.. Hehe.. But when on earth He walk the roles of humanity, as a son, as a brother, as a relative, as a friend and as a neighbor, even as a human stranger.. And never revealed His incredibly deepness of the totality of His total life experience, knowledge and what He got from that.. And just played His role perfectly as Saviour and sacrifice in human race's stead..

So the picture is not only the simplistic idea of being sinless and free from sin.. But super far beyond into perfection forged through unlimited time, experience, knowledge and etc..

[Gustave]

On ‎4‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 3:48 PM, Gerry Cabalo said:

When one strays away from Scripture, then just about any theory or doctrine is possible.

That Mary, on account of Christ, was spared from the stain of original Sin is more difficult for you to accept than the space trips that your own prophet affirms she took - space trips where she discussed certain aspects of theology with extraterrestrials? Knowing this you then boast the Immaculate Conception has no Scriptural merits? With respect I beg to differ.

[Gerr]

1 hour ago, Gustave said:

That Mary, on account of Christ, was spared from the stain of original Sin is more difficult for you to accept than the space trips that your own prophet affirms she took - space trips where she discussed certain aspects of theology with extraterrestrials? Knowing this you then boast the Immaculate Conception has no Scriptural merits? With respect I beg to differ.

1.  Apples and oranges comparison!  EGW's space trips is not found among SDA doctrinal beliefs; the immaculate conception and her subsequent personal sinlessness is, it appears to me, a dearly held doctrine in the RCC.  

2.  Do you believe that prophets in vision "whether out of the body or in the body" are capable of travel or speaking with extra-terestials?

3. Scripture is clear - "all have sinned," and there is only ONE Person called in Scripture as being "without sin".

4.  If Mary was sinless, she herself would not have needed a Savior.  

5.  If you beg to differ,  then just show scriptural basis for your belief.