Time that the dead should be Judged

[Buzzards]

as a new member I may be out of line in starting a thread

I am not an SDA; but I hold many things in common

such as Millers message,  I just think he; just as Daniel,, did not quite understand it

now to my topic

Quote

Rev.11:18

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead,

that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets,

and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

What if this "Judgement" is not speaking of the physically dead; in the grave,

but just dead in trespasses and sin, unfruitful, barren, without redeeming value

a fulfillment of this

Quote

Matt.13:47

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

now that the bad have been cast out, he asked

Quote

51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things?

They say unto him, Yea, Lord.

Now it time to give the Cleansed Church the New Wine

Quote

52 Then said he unto them,

Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder,

which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

Help me out here posters; any thoughts

what is the SDA understanding of Rev. ch 11, and when should I look for a fulfillment of Matt ch. 13:47

thankx

[Buzzards]

13 hours ago, Robert said:

The work which the church has failed to do in a time of peace and prosperity she will have to do in a terrible crisis under most discouraging, forbidding circumstances. The warnings that worldly conformity has silenced or withheld must be given under the fiercest opposition from enemies of the faith. And at that time the superficial, conservative class, whose influence has steadily retarded the progress of the work, will renounce the faith and take their stand with its avowed enemies, toward whom their sympathies have long been tending. These apostates will then manifest the most bitter enmity, doing all in their power to oppress and malign their former brethren and to excite indignation against them. This day is just before us. [TESTIMONIES FOR THE CHURCH, VOL. 5, PAGE 463]

What is the work of the church?  Is it not to present the three angel's message?

anything else she said / wrote

I have been on a couple of other bds

and These apostates will then manifest the most bitter enmity, doing all in their power to oppress and malign their former brethren and to excite indignation against them. This day is just before us. ; truer words have not been spoken

[Buzzards]

OK; the most important Message given to the Church to proclaim to the world;

for 2000 years;

since this; "Go; tell my Disciples ....."

" Why seek ye the living among the dead? "

SoS

Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth: for thy love is better than wine.

The sound of his voice, sets me on fire like a lovers kiss,

and the Tokens of his love is better than fine wine;

 

" Why seek ye the living among the dead? "

Scream it from the Housetops, let even the Mountains vibrate in the Echo

the sound should go like a sonic boom, when a plane breaks the sound barrier,

 

[Aliensanctuary]

I get the picture that Judgment Day occurs prior to the destruction of the Earth. The Sheep are separated from the Goats, that is, they are marked to indicate who their Master is. There is a delay, Christ does not immediately return, and many false prophets and false messiahs arise, but the end is not yet. The Abomination of Desolation is the trigger that signals the arrival of Christ, who rescues his followers and puts them in the cities from space. Then, the Earth is rendered uninhabitable for human life.

[phkrause]

From my understanding and study, Christ moves into the "Most Holy" in 1844. Which begins the judging of all, the dead first and the living last! Seems obvious to be in that order! According to Revelation, Jesus at his Second Coming, comes with his reward for all! Raising the dead in Christ to life with those alive are lifted up to meet him in the sky. While those who have been judged unworthy, stay in there graves, while those that are alive cry for the rocks to hide them from the brightness of the Savior and his Angels! Those that have been taken to heaven will spent the next 1000 years, the millennium, with Jesus finding out why those that are not there, are not there!!

[Buzzards]

3 hours ago, phkrause said:

From my understanding and study, Christ moves into the "Most Holy" in 1844.

How about if 1844 was the beginning of this; altho I disagree with the Date 1844

Ex.20:5

visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children

unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me,

and keep my commandments.

as in

Ye shall reap what ye have sewn

now the next commandment is

Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain;

for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

The Judgement began; (in my not so humble opinion) was not those that are physically dead and in the grave,

but dead in trespasses and sin, judgement announced was

"Let them reap what they have sewn"

visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children

unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

How close are we to that 4th Generation ???

 

Zeph.1:12

And it shall come to pass at that time, that I will search Jerusalem with candles,

and punish the men that are settled on their lees: that say in their heart,

The LORD will not do good, neither will he do evil.

and the Sanctuary shall be cleansed

13 But he answered and said,

Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

14 Let them alone:

they be blind leaders of the blind.

And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

[Dave Watchman]

On 4/23/2016 at 10:50 PM, Buzzards said:

Help me out here posters; any thoughts

what is the SDA understanding of Rev. ch 11,

Peaceful Sabbath

I'm not a member of the SDA Church either but am a fan of them. As a corporate religious group, I think that the SDA's are the best at Bible Eschatology. I've enjoyed reading The Desire of Ages and The Great Controversy and watched all of the Doug Batchelor and David Asscherick videos that I could find. But there's no SDA church near my area and being a devout Sabbath keeper I won't travel very far to find one on that Day.  

 My own understanding so far is that Jesus began judging the dead in 1844 after 2300 years passed since 457 BC. This judgment that Jesus is doing is called the cleansing of the Heavenly temple or restoring the Sanctuary to it's rightful state. This is a phase of the judgment process that has to be finished before the end time tribulation can start. And that's because the tribulation will then become the judgment of the living where people judge themselves by either refusing or taking the mark of the beast.

 

But then we get to Revelation 11 at the seventh trumpet we find another reference to a time where the dead are to be judged:

 

"The nations raged,

but your wrath came,

and the time for the dead to be judged,
and for rewarding your servants,the prophets and saints.

 

So was 1844 the seventh trumpet and the time for the dead to be judged?

 

Or is the seventh trumpet still in the future at the end of the tribulation where another type or phase of the judgment process of the dead begins?

 

"Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels?

 

This Pauline phase of the judgment process can't possibly begin until after the end of the tribulation. Because that's the first time when all "the saints" from all generations will be alive at the same time. There must be a requirement for us to participate in some part of the judgment of the dead during the millennium when we get to New Jerusalem.

 

On 4/23/2016 at 10:50 PM, Buzzards said:

and when should I look for a fulfillment of Matt ch. 13:47

 

"And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

Sounds like the White Throne Judgment after the thousand years of Revelation 20 are finished. 

 

[Dave Watchman]

On 5/22/2016 at 5:35 AM, Aliensanctuary said:

The Abomination of Desolation is the trigger that signals the arrival of Christ, who rescues his followers and puts them in the cities from space. Then, the Earth is rendered uninhabitable for human life.

 

The reason that I registered here was to talk to a guy about the abomination of desolation. But then I got stage fright and decided to be quiet about it.

 

But I agree with what you say regarding the state of the earth during the millennium.

 

It's the Abomination that maketh Desolate and the land will vomit out it's inhabitants.

[phkrause]

19 hours ago, Dave Watchman said:

"Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels

This Pauline phase of the judgment process can't possibly begin until after the end of the tribulation. Because that's the first time when all "the saints" from all generations will be alive at the same time. There must be a requirement for us to participate in some part of the judgment of the dead during the millennium when we get to New Jerusalem.

What I understand about this is:

In Revelation it says that at the second coming Jesus comes with his reward for each of us! That says to me that to give out rewards, judgment must have already been done!! Otherwise how can you reward someone?? So as Jesus comes those that are dead in Christ arise to meet him in the sky and those that are alive still, join them to meet him in the sky. While those that are alive and are not in Christ, call for the rocks to fall on them, because is glory is to bright for them, etc., etc. Than while we are in heaven for the next 1000 years we will go over the records of those that are not there, to find out why they are not there! That's where to me your statement above comes in to play! We will judge that what God has judged and see that it is right!!

[8thdaypriest]

My understanding is that the heavenly "court" of Daniel 7:9-10, will given "dominion" to Jesus (Dan 7:26-27).  Jesus will then decide who will be part of His kingdom, and who will not.  (All judgment is committed to the Son.)  The "court" of Daniel 7 is concerned with the dominion - NOT with individual sinners. 

Rev. 11:15 

The 7th trumpet sounds.  All heaven is celebrating BECAUSE "the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" 

This parallels Daniel 7:26-27.  The "dominion" has just been taken away from Satan, and has been given to Christ. 

It is now "time to reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, and those who fear Your name, small and great."  It is also TIME to "destroy those who destroy the earth."  The time of His wrath has come", and "the time of the dead that they should be judged". 

And what happens WHEN Jesus receives the "dominion"?  He immediately returns to rescue His sheep.  This is the Second Coming!!! 

In Daniel 12:2-3, the people of God are delivered.  Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth awake.  Some are raised to "everlasting life" while some (the larger number) are "raised to shame and everlasting condemnation".  THIS IS the judgment of the dead!  And the 7 last plagues destroy "them that destroy the earth". 

Jesus said, "I know my sheep."  He doesn't need 175 years + to figure out who "hear" Him, and who refuse to "hear".  I don't understand the NEED for a long period of judging (figuring it out) time.  Hence - I do not buy the 1844 date.  I do understand WHY the Adventist pioneers got it wrong.  They THOUGHT Jesus was coming that year. 

In Mrs White's "vision" of 1844, she describes Jesus IN the Most Holy Place in the blue ephod, breastplate, golden mitre, etc.  Those were part of the daily garb - worn every day of the year by the High Priest EXCEPT on the Day of Atonement when he entered the Most Holy Place.  Leviticus 16:4 describes the clothing to be worn for that entry.  Her "vision" is another reason why I do not accept the 1844 date. 

 

 

 

[Dave Watchman]

3 hours ago, phkrause said:

What I understand about this is:

In Revelation it says that at the second coming Jesus comes with his reward for each of us! That says to me that to give out rewards, judgment must have already been done!! Otherwise how can you reward someone?? So as Jesus comes those that are dead in Christ arise to meet him in the sky and those that are alive still, join them to meet him in the sky. While those that are alive and are not in Christ, call for the rocks to fall on them, because is glory is to bright for them, etc., etc. Than while we are in heaven for the next 1000 years we will go over the records of those that are not there, to find out why they are not there! That's where to me your statement above comes in to play! We will judge that what God has judged and see that it is right!!

It sounds like we're pretty much on the same page. The judgment of the saved is finished at the second coming but some part of the judgment of the lost will still require our participation. Maybe we'll help decide with how many stripes they are beaten with before they perish.

"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

I'm not really looking forward to it. But so much other scripture will then harmonize when this part of the chronology is understood.

None of the other theologies can agree on when or for how long we go to the the Father's House with many rooms.

"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

And I've wondered in Matthew 26 was Jesus telling Joseph Caiaphas that he wouldn't be going to New Jerusalem for the thousand years:

"And the high priest said to him, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.” Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Because the only time I can think of when every eye will be open again to see Him (even those who pierced Him) will be when the thousand years are finished and the rest of the dead come back to life for the final judgement.

[Dave Watchman]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Jesus said, "I know my sheep."  He doesn't need 175 years + to figure out who "hear" Him, and who refuse to "hear".  I don't understand the NEED for a long period of judging (figuring it out) time.  Hence - I do not buy the 1844 date.  I do understand WHY the Adventist pioneers got it wrong.  They THOUGHT Jesus was coming that year. 

In Mrs White's "vision" of 1844, she describes Jesus IN the Most Holy Place in the blue ephod, breastplate, golden mitre, etc.  Those were part of the daily garb - worn every day of the year by the High Priest EXCEPT on the Day of Atonement when he entered the Most Holy Place.  Leviticus 16:4 describes the clothing to be worn for that entry.  Her "vision" is another reason why I do not accept the 1844 date. 

 

Maybe, but just keep in mind how far back in time He's going. All the way back to Abel and there's been lots of sheep since then.  And not all the dead are His sheep. If I were a goat I wouldn't want Him rushing too fast. Plus He's probably doing this in front of an audience of witnesses like the holy angels and the 24 elders and four living creatures.

 

The Adventist pioneers just got the event wrong. The restoring of the sanctuary to it's rightful state is the Heavenly equivalent of the earthly day of atonement, not the second coming. We know now that the earthly temple was a copy of the one in Heaven. So once a year on the day of atonement the priest had to clean the blood off of the horns of the alter. But I bet we're here now and the sanctuary is looking like it's in it's rightful state about now.

 

1844 looks right to me.

 

[Samie]

6 hours ago, Dave Watchman said:

1844 looks right to me.

If Jesus entered the MHP only in 1844, would you please try to reconcile that with the Biblical statement in the book of Hebrews that Jesus has already entered within the veil? The book of Hebrews was written long before 1844.

Quote

KJV Hebrews 6:19-20   19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;  20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

The phrase within the veil (or vail) can easily be shown from Scriptures as referring to the Most Holy Place.

Quote

KJV Exodus 26:33-34   33 And thou shalt hang up the vail under the taches, that thou mayest bring in thither within the vail the ark of the testimony: and the vail shall divide unto you between the holy place and the most holy.  34 And thou shalt put the mercy seat upon the ark of the testimony in the most holy place.

Leviticus 16:2   2 And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.

Leviticus 16:12-15   12 And he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from off the altar before the LORD, and his hands full of sweet incense beaten small, and bring it within the vail:  13 And he shall put the incense upon the fire before the LORD, that the cloud of the incense may cover the mercy seat that is upon the testimony, that he die not:  14 And he shall take of the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it with his finger upon the mercy seat eastward; and before the mercy seat shall he sprinkle of the blood with his finger seven times.  15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat:

 

[Samie]

10 hours ago, phkrause said:

In Revelation it says that at the second coming Jesus comes with his reward for each of us! That says to me that to give out rewards, judgment must have already been done!! Otherwise how can you reward someone?? So as Jesus comes those that are dead in Christ arise to meet him in the sky and those that are alive still, join them to meet him in the sky. While those that are alive and are not in Christ, call for the rocks to fall on them, because is glory is to bright for them, etc., etc. Than while we are in heaven for the next 1000 years we will go over the records of those that are not there, to find out why they are not there! That's where to me your statement above comes in to play! We will judge that what God has judged and see that it is right!!

Based on phkrause's statement I quoted above, when Jesus comes He has His reward for each of us. I believe so, too. In fact, Jesus Himself said the same (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12).

There are TWO (2) kinds of people at the Second Coming: the righteous and the wicked. There are also TWO (2) types for each kind: those alive and those who are dead. Hence, those to receive the reward should be FOUR (4) different groups: the righteous living and dead, and the wicked living and dead.

In the above quote, phkrause mentions as being rewarded are: 1. those dead in Christ (righteous dead) and resurrected; 2. those alive in Christ (righteous living); 3. those alive but not in Christ (the living wicked).

Looks like one group is missing and not rewarded: the wicked dead.

I don't think Christ will forget to reward the wicked dead, too. In fact, in the Revelation given Him by His Father, it is mentioned that when He comes in the clouds of heaven every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him. How can those wicked Roman soldiers who pierced His side on the cross and long dead in the graves, see Him come if they are not resurrected to receive their own reward?

It is quite easy to show from Scriptures that all 4 groups receive their own reward when Jesus comes again.

[8thdaypriest]

7 hours ago, Samie said:

If Jesus entered the MHP only in 1844, would you please try to reconcile that with the Biblical statement in the book of Hebrews that Jesus has already entered within the veil? The book of Hebrews was written long before 1844.

The phrase within the veil (or vail) can easily be shown from Scriptures as referring to the Most Holy Place.

 

There is no veil in heaven - separating a first apartment from a second.  Where God the Father sits IS the Most Holy Place - and Jesus sat down at the right hand of the Father.

That said:

The two apartments - I believe - symbolized a change of LOCATION - and a special EVENT. 

Thrones (plural) were put in place, and the Ancient of Days was seated.  God the Father moved to a special judgment hall or arena, where thrones had been set up.  One for HIM, and others for the judges of the heavenly "court". 

THEN - The Son of Man was brought before the Ancient of Days.  (Daniel 7:13)

I believe THIS will be the fulfillment of the Day of Atonement prophecy. 

I do NOT see this as happening when Jesus ascended to Heaven immediately after His resurrection.  The things going on - on the earth - I believe - tell us this is the very END of DAYS.  The "little horn" is speaking blasphemy, and has been persecuting the people of God for "time, times and a part".  The little horn persecutes the saints right up UNTIL the Ancient of Days comes, and a judgment is made in favor of the saints of the Most High, AND THE TIME COMES for the saints to possess the kingdom. 

The saints did not take possession of the kingdom when persecution by the Catholic Church died out in Europe.  They did not take possession of the kingdom in 1844.  This is a FUTURE EVENT! 

In my opinion - of course.

 

[Samie]

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

There is no veil in heaven - separating a first apartment from a second.

So where is the veil mentioned in Hebrews 6:19, 20 located into which Jesus entered, on earth?

Quote

NKJ Hebrews 6:19-20   This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil,  where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

 

[8thdaypriest]

29 minutes ago, Samie said:

So where is the veil mentioned in Hebrews 6:19, 20 located into which Jesus entered, on earth?

 

Already explained!

[Samie]

9 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Already explained!

And it's clear from your explanation that the veil is not in heaven.

Now, the Bible says Jesus entered within the veil. And because according to you the veil Jesus entered is not in heaven, then it could be on earth or some other planets. You have any hint where?

[8thdaypriest]

55 minutes ago, Samie said:

So where is the veil mentioned in Hebrews 6:19, 20 located into which Jesus entered, on earth?

 

You're misquoting Samie.  It doesn't say he "entered within the veil".  It says "He entered THE PRESENCE within the veil".  The "presence" within the Most Holy Place was the "presence" of God Himself.  Jesus DID - in fact - enter the presence of God.

It says He entered that presence THROUGH (the veil) which was His flesh.  He entered that presence by dying. 

[Samie]

5 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

You're misquoting Samie.  It doesn't say he "entered within the veil".  It says "He entered THE PRESENCE within the veil".  The "presence" within the Most Holy Place was the "presence" of God Himself.  Jesus DID - in fact - enter the presence of God.

It says He entered that presence THROUGH (the veil) which was His flesh.  He entered that presence by dying. 

Misquoting? Here are other renditions of those verses:

Quote

ESV Hebrews 6:19-20   19 We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain,  20 where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

KJV Hebrews 6:19-20   19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;  20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

NAS Hebrews 6:19-20   19 (1)This (a)hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which (b)enters (2)within the veil,  20 a)where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a (b)high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

NIV Hebrews 6:19-20   19 We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain,  20 where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.

NRS Hebrews 6:19-20   19 We have this hope, a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters the inner shrine behind the curtain,  20 where Jesus, a forerunner on our behalf, has entered, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

 

[8thdaypriest]

On 6/11/2016 at 9:17 PM, Dave Watchman said:

 

Maybe, but just keep in mind how far back in time He's going. All the way back to Abel and there's been lots of sheep since then.  And not all the dead are His sheep. If I were a goat I wouldn't want Him rushing too fast. Plus He's probably doing this in front of an audience of witnesses like the holy angels and the 24 elders and four living creatures.

 

The Adventist pioneers just got the event wrong. The restoring of the sanctuary to it's rightful state is the Heavenly equivalent of the earthly day of atonement, not the second coming. We know now that the earthly temple was a copy of the one in Heaven. So once a year on the day of atonement the priest had to clean the blood off of the horns of the alter. But I bet we're here now and the sanctuary is looking like it's in it's rightful state about now.

 

1844 looks right to me.

 

Jesus has existed since Adam.  He remembers with whom He had a relationship.  If I had "written" some one "on the palms of my hands", I certainly would remember them.

The only "time" He could not directly "remember" would be while He was growing up as a human on earth.  But I'm sure His Father has filled Him in on who the "good guys" were during that short period of time.

The Day of Atonement was the END of forgiveness for individual Israelites who had not previously brought a sin offing, for sins committed during the year.  It was called the Day of Judgment.  God was judging Israel - in the person of the High Priest - on THAT DAY. 

Why would I NOT equate the Day of Atonement with the END of human probation, and the judgment executed at the Second Coming?  The scapegoat was banished to the uninhabited ON THAT DAY (not 175+ years later). 

The High Priest ENTERED the Most Holy Place and CAME OUT of the Most Holy Place - on THAT DAY. 

Yom Kippur was a ONE DAY event - just like Feast of Firstfruits, Passover and Pentecost were ONE DAY events. 

We don't say that THE event of Passover took 175+ years.  We don't say the event of Pentecost took 175+ years.  Why do SDAs make an exception for Yom Kippur to say it is extended over 175+ years since 1844?  They say our High Priest (Jesus) ENTERED the Most Holy Place of Heaven back in 1844, and He's STILL IN THERE! 

Personally - I believe that Jesus will ENTER the forum set up for the heavenly "court" of Daniel 7:9-10.  [The little horn will be persecuting the saints on earth.]  The "court" will pronounce Him "worthy" to receive dominion and the kingdom.  And that's IT.  All done.  The setting is just for a formal announcement by God the Father and the "court". 

Think of the scene when an earthly "court" reconvenes because the jury has reached a verdict.  The judge and jury are seated.  The defendant stands.  And the verdict is read.  DONE!

[Kevin H]

On ‎6‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 5:12 AM, Samie said:

If Jesus entered the MHP only in 1844, would you please try to reconcile that with the Biblical statement in the book of Hebrews that Jesus has already entered within the veil? The book of Hebrews was written long before 1844.

The phrase within the veil (or vail) can easily be shown from Scriptures as referring to the Most Holy Place.

 

Here the fact that the New Testament was written in Greek is a big help. In the Old Testament the Most Holy was entered twice, first when they inaugurated the services at the completion of the tabernacle, then the temples. and there after the day of Atonement. In the Septuagint translators decided to  make a clear distinction by using two different words. One word for when within the veil for the inauguration of the service at the start of the ministry there and a different word for entering on the day of atonement. (There is also evidence that Shavu'ot/Penticost is connected with both the giving of the law and the inauguration service).

Daniel 8:14 uses cyclic terminology, May I recommend "Before Philosophy" by Henri Frankfort and others from the archaeology department of Chicago University to explain ancient cycles. According to Leviticus 25 the Hebrew cycles are 6 days and the Sabbath, 6 months and Passover/Yom Kippur, 6 years and the Sabbatical year, and 6 Sabbatical years and the Jubilee. Thus we have 2300 days, half years, full years or Sabbatical years. Since Daniel is based on Deuteronomy and Deuteronomy has everything in the Jubilee in the Sabbatical year, our options for Daniel 8:14 is days, half years and full years.

Daniel 8:14 was given the year that included 2300 literal days to Belshazzar's feast. Ezekiel has a 2310 day prophecy connected to how the last 2310 days could have been of the 70 weeks had Jesus been accepted (and if you exclude the 10 days from the fall New Year to Yom Kippur, we have another application of the 2300 evenings-mornings prophecy).

1844 was ONE of the possible interpretations and applications of Daniel 8:14. I would not limit Daniel 8:14 to 1844, but it is inclusive of the text. And we find 1844 being the Sabbatical year (and if I recall correctly the Jubilee) when the church entered a new experience. On the one hand Evolution was becoming popular and before there were good and bad people but they tended to agree that there was a God and that the Bible was inspired. But now things were changing and Atheism was growing and people questioned the idea of inspiration and you had modernists who believed that the Bible was not inspired and the fundamentalists with an extreme view of inspiration. Historicism was being replaced by Dispensationalism.  On the other hand the Rosetta stone was starting to be translated unlocking ancient languages. Robinson explored the Holy Land opening up serious (instead of traditions) studies in Biblical geography opening the door for archaeology and where we were able to investigate the pages of scripture like never before. 1844 was the Sabbatical (and Jubilee ?) year that enters this whole new cycle and experience. Why didn't the "Investigative Judgment" start before 1844? Because we are also talking about milestones in history with things that on the one hand there are gradual changes every day, but there are milestones where these gradual changes come together and we can make a distinction between events before and after. 1844 is one of these milestones and is also ONE of the days in the cyclic times that fit Daniel 8:14

[Samie]

20 hours ago, Kevin H said:

. . . 6 Sabbatical years and the Jubilee.

???

I think it is 7 Sabbatical years (7 X 7 = 49) + the Jubilee year = 50 years.

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NKJ Leviticus 25:8-13  8 ' And you shall count seven sabbaths of years for yourself, seven times seven years; and the time of the seven sabbaths of years shall be to you forty-nine years.  9 'Then you shall cause the trumpet of the Jubilee to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the Day of Atonement you shall make the trumpet to sound throughout all your land.  10 'And you shall consecrate the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a Jubilee for you; and each of you shall return to his possession, and each of you shall return to his family.  11 'That fiftieth year shall be a Jubilee to you; in it you shall neither sow nor reap what grows of its own accord, nor gather the grapes of your untended vine.  12 'For it is the Jubilee; it shall be holy to you; you shall eat its produce from the field.  13 ' In this Year of Jubilee, each of you shall return to his possession.

There are many good reading materials, but I think when it comes to doctrinal truth, there is no substitute for Scriptures. Paul says:

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ESV 1 Corinthians 4:6 I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written . . .

Is it a 'Thus saith the Lord'?  The statement "Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain "Thus saith the Lord" in its support" seems to echo in my ears.  Again,

On 12/06/2016 at 5:12 PM, Samie said:

If Jesus entered the MHP only in 1844, would you please try to reconcile that with the Biblical statement in the book of Hebrews that Jesus has already entered within the veil? The book of Hebrews was written long before 1844.

The phrase within the veil (or vail) can easily be shown from Scriptures as referring to the Most Holy Place.

If the Bible in Hebrews says that Jesus has already entered the MHP long before 1844, why would I believe that He only entered it in 1844?  I won't pressure anybody for an answer, but maybe to just think it over again.

Unless of course someone plainly shows me from Scriptures that Heb 6:19, 20 do not really mean what I thought they meant.

[Kevin H]

12 hours ago, Samie said:

 

If the Bible in Hebrews says that Jesus has already entered the MHP long before 1844, why would I believe that He only entered it in 1844?  I won't pressure anybody for an answer, but maybe to just think it over again.

Unless of course someone plainly shows me from Scriptures that Heb 6:19, 20 do not really mean what I thought they meant.

I take it you forgot to read when I pointed out to you that Heb 6:19, 20 does not mean what you thought it meant.

[Samie]

18 hours ago, Kevin H said:

I take it you forgot to read when I pointed out to you that Heb 6:19, 20 does not mean what you thought it meant.

Sadly, what you pointed out to me are NOT Scriptures, are they? Where? What verse or verses?