Old Message

[Buzzards]

Musicman; you made this statement in another thread

What Does It Really Mean to Be “Born Again”?

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My reference to the 28 Fundamentals (used to be 27, and 13 when I was baptized in 1962) are the foundational beliefs of the SDA church; and today when someone is baptized into the church they must verbally declare, (and often sign on the dotted line of the baptismal certificate, as I did) that they will abide by these doctrines whole heartedly and without reservation. 

you were Baptized in 62 ???

what was the message taught then ????

The reason I ask, and its not a "Loaded Question"

I knew an old Adventist Elder in the mid 70's, early 80's (No; he was not an Ordained minister; just a church Elder)

he was in his late 80's early 90's when I knew him, I used to set and talk to him on the front porch

His Hands shook so bad he couldn't hold a glass of water, , he could quote Hugh amounts of the Scriptures from memory; perbatium

I know I tested him a few times, his voice weak and quivering ; till he began to speak, and his voice got strong and steady;

said he knew Sister White  as a young man in N Calif, where he grew up, and had been a Literature Evangelist since his teen aged years,

the message I heard from him is far different from the message I read from the SDA's  on a few of the boards I post on

I know what Elder Smith said would be the AoD

 

so what was the message you were taught back in the 60 -70's

 

you also made this statement

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Hence the delay in v.5. It is my understanding that we are still in that delay because the bridesmaids (the SDA church) STILL has no clue what their role is at the end of time. That is because we have been sidetracked by all sorts of secondary issues that have prevented us from KNOWING WHO WE ARE.

There. Got to go for now. We will talk more later after you give me your thoughts.

 

so; in your opinion; what are some of these secondary issues

[Musicman1228]

The message I was taught in 7th and 8th grade through high school at an Adventist Academy was NOT Salvation by grace through faith. That was not even a blip on the RADAR of Adventism back then. What I was taught by our very earnest and zealous Bible instructor was that salvation came from FIRST being Justified by the blood of Jesus on the cross, and SECOND by becoming Sanctified by the truth in the Bible. We were taught that it took BOTH Justification and Sanctification to be saved. Now I have modified my understanding a little since then, to specify that it is the WORDS OF JESUS that He gave His own eyewitness disciples while HE was here on earth. But the basic premise is the same; that Adventism originally taught that we had to 'work out our own salvation with fear and trembling', and that our deeds did count toward our gaining eternal life.

Rev 2:4  'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.

Rev 2:5  'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lamp stand out of its place—unless you repent.

The SDA church has left it's FIRST LOVE, which happened when they lost sight of the words of Jesus as the arbiter of truth, in favor of a female prophetess who became the fulcrum upon which ALL truth found in Adventism eventually rested. Note the above text says, "Repent and do the DEEDS you did at first." These deeds were both group and individual Bible studies that primarily took place in homes, where Advent believers would 'hash out' the meaning of texts and passages, and come to consensus about the truth of Scripture and the meaning of prophecy. Later, this kind of study gave way to simply asking EGW what the meanings of texts or passages were, she would dictate the answer, and that would be the end of the discussion. The SDA church is still in that same place with regards truth as it was back then. Jesus even spoke of this issue in Rev. 2: 18-29, where in the prophecy describes the prophetess of this 'Kingdom of the Heavens' in specific detail that can only relate to a single, identifiable, person. 

EGW has sidetracked, and highjacked, the truth to such an extent that the focus of the early church was changed from it's original charge of taking the gospel of the Kingdom to the world (Matt. 24:14, 28:18-20), to taking the gospel of Paul and of EGW to the world in it's place. This has not worked out well for the Advent movement, and God in prophecy has reminds this singular group that they need to:

Rev 3:2  'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God.'

When I was baptized, Ellen White was NOT considered to be a test of faith that would keep a person from becoming a member in good standing in the SDA church if they did not believe in her; and belief in her as a prophet of God was not included as part of the 13 steps to becoming baptized. This belief was completely optional, and up to the individual as to whether they would accept her ministry, or not. Today, the church couches it's belief in EGW in the subtle terms found in No. 17 of the Fundamentals of the church, which states that, "Ellen White is a continuing and authoritative source of truth", that continues the testimony found in the Bible. This puts her on an equal footing with the information found in Scripture, at least according to the SDA church. And since EGW named Paul as the "Greatest Apostle", believers naturally began placing more and more emphasis of the writings of Paul and EGW than on the words of Jesus, especially those found in Matthew and John. This is what I meant by 'secondary issues' to the truth.

I know this was a long presentation, but it does tell you why I choose to not be named as a modern Seventh-day Adventist, although I identify closely with your founders and what they believed, before EGW came along and changed our Scriptural understanding so that would not be recognized by those very founders.

[Buzzards]

well; maybe we are somewhat on the same Page

2 hours ago, Musicman1228 said:

Jesus even spoke of this issue in Rev. 2: 18-29, where in the prophecy describes the prophetess of this 'Kingdom of the Heavens' in specific detail that can only relate to a single, identifiable, person. 

Rev.2:20

Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess,

to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

Yes he did speak on this
 

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Matt.13:33

Another parable spake he unto them;

The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took,

and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

 

Now notice what happens next
 

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vs. 36

Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him,

saying, Declare unto us ............

 

When reading the Parables of Christ, notice the Seven (7) line up with the 7 Churches of John's Revelation

the last on is likened to the Net; this is the Church of The Laodiceans
 

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47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net,

that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

Which, when it was full, they drew to shore,

and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels,

but cast the bad away.

 

Mark, speaking of these Parables says
 

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Mark 4:2

And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,

Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow: ..

...

10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.

And he said unto them,

Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God:

but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand;

lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

And he said unto them,

Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

 

Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

in other words; either get this one correct

the Parable of the Sower, or forget a correct understanding of the other 6

and also the others he gave, especially The Mustard

1st Parable -- Behold, a sower went forth to sow; (Wayside; Stoney Places; among Thorns; Good Ground)  = Church of Ephesus
 

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SoS 2:1

I am the rose of Sharon, and the lily of the valleys.

As the lily among thorns, so is my love among the daughters.

 

2nd Parable -- a man which sowed good seed; -- his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat = 2nd Church "Smyrna" = the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

3rd Parable -- a grain of mustard seed, the birds of the air come and lodge (roost / set) in the branches thereof. = 3rd - Church in Pergamos =   and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: / Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

4th Parable - The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. - 4th / the church in Thyatira - thou sufferest that woman Jezebel  -- much too soon for Sister White, also this woman is connected to Ahab and Jezzie-Bella in the days of Elijah and the Prophets of Baal

Now he sends the Multitude away = they do not get to hear; as Paul Harvey would say -- "The rest of the Story"

5th Parable -- treasure hid in a field, the which when a man hath found, he hideth =  the church in Sardis -- but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
a church afraid to preach this treasure out in the open, so they hiddeth it, but the Gospel was about ready to die/ and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die:
 

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Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

6th Parable = the Reformation - Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.

the church in Philadelphia = behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it:  / Now the Merchant Men of the Church are able to openly sell these Pearls to their congregations

unfortunately; not all these "Merchant Men" were of the Master, many of them were just "He Goats"  but as the name Philadelphia implies = a great Love of the Truth

(see next post / Bethsaida =  The Reformation foretold)

7th Parable = Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. =  the church of the Laodiceans / a Net cast into the Seas of the 1st Beast and caught all kinds; Good and Bad, but now comes the seperation

ie: So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just //// So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

[Buzzards]

The Reformation foretold

Mark 8:22
And he cometh to Bethsaida;

Definition of Bethsaida:
"house of fruits, or of food, or of snares"
Bethsaida, bayth-sahee-dah';
of Chald. or. [comp. {A.**H-1004 and {B.**H-6719]; fishing-house;
Bethsaida, a place in Pal.:--Bethsaida.
house of fish

And he cometh to Bethsaida
and they bring a blind man unto him,
and besought him to touch him.

23 And he took the blind man by the hand,
and led him out of the town;
and when he had spit on his eyes,
and put his hands upon him,
he asked him if he saw ought.

24 And he looked up, and said,
I see men as trees, walking.

25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes,
and made him look up: and he was restored,
and saw every man clearly.

26 And he sent him away to his house, saying,
Neither go into the town, nor tell it to any in the town.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++

And he cometh to Bethsaida;
A worthless desolate house of fish

and they bring a blind man unto him,
and besought him to touch him.

23 And he took the blind man by the hand,
and led him out of the town;
and when he had spit on his eyes,
and put his hands upon him,
he asked him if he saw ought.

Hey man, can you see now
???
And he ( the Blind Man ) looked up, and said,

I see men as trees, walking.

Now; to his disciples, that has to be quite a shock

Christ has healed the sick, raised the Dead,
fed 5,000 with just a few loaves and a couple of fish,
walked on water, calmed the sea
and now he can't even heal a blind man correctly
:ondering::
or was he just teaching the disciples a lesson ??????

----- the 2nd touch ----
25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes,
and made him look up: and he was restored,
and saw every man clearly.

I see men as trees, walking.
but now I see men for just what they are

Luke 21:7
And they asked him, saying,
Master, but when shall these things be?
and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

.....
Christ answered and said.........
28 And when these things begin to come to pass,

----- the 2nd touch ----
25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes,
and made him look up: and he was restored,
and saw every man clearly.

then look up, and lift up your heads;
for your redemption draweth nigh.

And he spake to them a parable;
Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

--- The Reformation ----
The 1st Touch was the reformation;
but unfortunately, we were still partly blind,
and did not see clearly, and were still seeing Men as the Trees of the Faith

----- the 2nd touch ----
25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes,
and made him look up: and he was restored,
and saw every man clearly.

I saw men as trees, walking.
but now I see men for just what they are

there will come a 2nd Touch; and we will
See 100% clearly
as Paul says
seeing thru a glass darkly

For now we see through a glass, darkly;

now Christ says to him, the Blind man restored

And he sent him away to his house, saying,
Neither go into the town,
nor tell it to any in the town

as Paul says

but then face to face:
now I know in part;
but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Neither go into the town,
nor tell it to any in the town

the lesson taught
Don't go back in that Worthless, Desolate House of Fish
ie:
Don't go "Home ------> too Rome"

[Buzzards]

do these evangelicals see clearly
or are they still just looking to men to lead them

re we; still just looking to some preacher to lead;
some popular televangelist; some charismatic leader to tell us what is truth

watch the latest end time event internet video
of some self proclaimed Prophet
etc. etc. etc
and we think we have it all figured out

thats the reason he saith

Rev.3:17
Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods,
and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched,
and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

we; are not in to good of shape are we;
problem is; we knowest not

[Dave Watchman]

On 6/26/2016 at 7:24 AM, Buzzards said:

I know what Elder Smith said would be the AoD

I missed it.

Can you remember what he said?

Are you allowed to tell?

[Buzzards]

Certainly;  we should start a thread on it

1st; there are 3 Abominations given (well, several, when we read Ez. 8) its the last one we are to be concerned about

The Angel tells Daniel (last vs of Ch 10)
 

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Daniel 10:21

I will shew thee that which is noted (already written) in the scripture of truth:

and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

 

so why are we looking for this Abomination in the book of Daniel ????

we should start a thread on it

 

[Buzzards]

On 6/26/2016 at 11:06 PM, Musicman1228 said:

The message I was taught in 7th and 8th grade through high school at an Adventist Academy was NOT Salvation by grace through faith. That was not even a blip on the RADAR of Adventism back then. What I was taught by our very earnest and zealous Bible instructor was that salvation came from FIRST being Justified by the blood of Jesus on the cross, and SECOND by becoming Sanctified by the truth in the Bible. We were taught that it took BOTH Justification and Sanctification to be saved. Now I have modified my understanding a little since then, to specify that it is the WORDS OF JESUS that He gave His own eyewitness disciples while HE was here on earth. But the basic premise is the same; that Adventism originally taught that we had to 'work out our own salvation with fear and trembling', and that our deeds did count toward our gaining eternal life.

Rev 2:4  'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.

Rev 2:5  'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lamp stand out of its place—unless you repent.

The SDA church has left it's FIRST LOVE,

-----"Salvation by grace through faith."......

But it is Salvation by the Grace of God, and he gives us the opportunity to live out our "Faith"

see Hebrews Ch.11

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God,

By faith Enoch was translated

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not yet seen ............

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed

By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three (3) months of his parents,

It was by Faith Moses forsook Egypt and confronted Pharoah

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear,

prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world,

and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

No Ark building; , and Noah is a dead man also, he condemned the world, not by his preaching

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"Adventism originally taught that we had to 'work out our own salvation with fear and trembling', and that our deeds did count toward our gaining eternal life."

we are too " 'work out (live out) our own salvation with fear and trembling', " we are too live the life; not just talk about it; talk is cheap

No Ark building; , and Noah is a dead man also, he condemned the world, not by his preaching

we do not earn Salvation; but then there will be no Slothful Servants in the kingdom
 

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Rev.3:16

So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

 

 

[Kevin H]

We have always been a church of growth and change, both good and bad. Our pioneers came from many different churches. They wanted to form a church that had only a few landmarks and beyond that, as long as they were not fanatical, they had the freedom to believe what they wished. Many of our pioneers were not Trinitarians yet Trinitarians were free to join. The first generation had a spiritual background and focused on differences from other groups while holding much in common. the next generation had the differences but not the common and ended up preaching the law the law the law until we were as dry as the hills of Gilboah.

We had two publishing houses one conservative the other liberal. Those running the conservative publishing house wanted to take over the liberal one and bring it into line. Mrs. White said "NO" that we needed both of them and to leave them alone. The conservatives responded by making the workers and the administration of both publishing houses clones of each other.

We had the 1888 General Conference, yet people going home with mixtures of what was taught before and after 1888 and the critics of Jones and Wagner eventually found enough quotes in Jones and Wagner to make them not teach anything radical after all but the same ideas as before 1888.

In the start of the 1900s there was much diversity in our church and sub groups calling each other heretics. Even Mrs. White was labeled a heretic and people said that if you want truth you have to read Mrs. White as interpreted by some of our pastors who had opposed Jones and Wagner. You also had debates over whether or not we should accept fundamentalism. there was the 1919 Bible conference in Washington DC that opposed fundamentalism. A large number of those in attendance then moved to the great interdenominational Bible conference in Philadelphia for Fundamentalism. They went home with the Philadelphia message rejecting the Washington DC message.

Then there was the General Conference; in some books and resources it is dated 1922 in others 1923. Which ever year it was it was a horrible event. There were two sets of fundamentalists, one more moderate one more extreme that united in throwing out the non-fundamentalists. This caused major changes in our church that we still suffer from and which greatly colored the view of your friend from the 1960s.

Yet despite the horrible General Conference of 1922 or 23, there were still people growing. There were people like Lynn Harper Wood, Elder Hepenstall, The Maxwell brothers, Elder Horn, Dr. Theile, the list goes on (many of them listed in the SDA Bible Commentary). You had Elder Person who was uncomfortable with the SDA BC and felt it was too liberal and he  became General Conference President and wanted to go back to what he saw as the ideals of the church in the 1920s.

So there have been many voices and things that have happened in our church, both good and bad. We have had many sub groups. All of our subgroups believe that we are the true version of Adventism.  In our good times the subgroups have learned how to work together and offered fellowship although agreeing to disagree. In our bad times one sub group or another wanted to force it's views on the rest of us.

[Gregory Matthews]

On June 26, Musicman said, see below:

I have both substantial agreement with what he said and some minor disagreement.

As to the minor disagreement:  Musicman has not established what Adventism originally taught.  Perhaps he is accurate in his statement on this issue.  Perhaps he is not.  In any case, he has not actually addressed that issue and has not established such.

As to my substantial agreement: What he states as his experience in the 7th & 8th grades to include Academy is simply his experience.  I cannot argue with that.  Also, I do agree that during that period of time and somewhat earlier, what he describes as his experience was probably the experience of many others, even if not all.  I will also say that what he describes is still the experience of some, to include people who post here in CA.

But, I must add to what he said:  The SDA denomination has moved and is moving away from the theology that he describes.  It is moving away from a works based salvation to a faith based salvation that is centered and founded in Christ.  This movement is challenging to some within the SDA Denomination.  The result is some attempt to crucify those who seek new ways.  They forget that if something is of God, it will succeed and if not, it will fail, if god wants it to  fail. 

Musicman, I will suggest that you spend some time looking into THE ONE PROJECT, to see one attempt within the denomination to bring people to focus on Jesus Christ as our foundation and center.

 

 

The message I was taught in 7th and 8th grade through high school at an Adventist Academy was NOT Salvation by grace through faith. That was not even a blip on the RADAR of Adventism back then. What I was taught by our very earnest and zealous Bible instructor was that salvation came from FIRST being Justified by the blood of Jesus on the cross, and SECOND by becoming Sanctified by the truth in the Bible. We were taught that it took BOTH Justification and Sanctification to be saved. Now I have modified my understanding a little since then, to specify that it is the WORDS OF JESUS that He gave His own eyewitness disciples while HE was here on earth. But the basic premise is the same; that Adventism originally taught that we had to 'work out our own salvation with fear and trembling', and that our deeds did count toward our gaining eternal life. [/ quote]

[Musicman1228]

On 7/3/2016 at 7:59 AM, Gregory Matthews said:

On June 26, Musicman said, see below:

I have both substantial agreement with what he said and some minor disagreement.

As to the minor disagreement:  Musicman has not established what Adventism originally taught.  Perhaps he is accurate in his statement on this issue.  Perhaps he is not.  In any case, he has not actually addressed that issue and has not established such.

As to my substantial agreement: What he states as his experience in the 7th & 8th grades to include Academy is simply his experience.  I cannot argue with that.  Also, I do agree that during that period of time and somewhat earlier, what he describes as his experience was probably the experience of many others, even if not all.  I will also say that what he describes is still the experience of some, to include people who post here in CA.

But, I must add to what he said:  The SDA denomination has moved and is moving away from the theology that he describes.  It is moving away from a works based salvation to a faith based salvation that is centered and founded in Christ.  This movement is challenging to some within the SDA Denomination.  The result is some attempt to crucify those who seek new ways.  They forget that if something is of God, it will succeed and if not, it will fail, if god wants it to  fail. 

Musicman, I will suggest that you spend some time looking into THE ONE PROJECT, to see one attempt within the denomination to bring people to focus on Jesus Christ as our foundation and center.

 

 

 

Greg said, "It is moving away from a works based salvation to a faith based salvation that is centered and founded in Christ."

You are correct in the above statement except you need to substitute COVENANT for the word 'works', and you would have the concept. The original SDA church revered the 10 Commandments as the Covenant that God established with the Kingdom of Heaven (then Israel) whereby  that Kingdom would DEMONSTRATE by their activity in keeping the Covenant that they were indeed the Kingdom of Heaven. The Gospel of the Kingdom that Jesus brought from the Father is simply that in order to be 'saved' a person must be INSIDE the Kingdom of Heaven. To gain admission to this Kingdom a person needed to be BORN AGAIN (not adopted, as some would have you believe) of the Holy Spirit THROUGH the words that Jesus came to earth to teach; that is, you MUST keep the Commandments of God, and hold to the testimony of Jesus (Rev. 12:17) the Son of God. This is salvation by SANCTIFICATION, that Jesus described in John 17. Our church, at one point in the past, taught that this was the process by which a person gained entry to the Kingdom of Heaven. We are no longer teaching this, having gone over to the 'dark side', wherein all that one must do to be saved is declare that Jesus is their personal Savior, and that they are saved 'by His blood'.  You are correct in saying that doing this removes any component of actually becoming righteous 'in fact', that one becomes righteous 'by grace through faith'. 

That is what I meant when I spoke of the fact that our church has completely moved away from Sanctification to 'grace'. This is of what Jesus was speaking when He told those in Ephesus:

Rev 2:4  'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.

Rev 2:5  'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.