What is "the handwriting of ordinances" that Christ nailed to the cross?

[Ron Amnsn]

On 9/26/2016 at 5:17 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

Sounds like ALL the branches are broken off - not just the 10 tribes. 

At what specific point in time are you thinking all the branches were broken off?  Are there any passages of Scripture that tell us when that would have happened?

[Ron Amnsn]

On 9/26/2016 at 5:17 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

Sounds like ALL the branches are broken off - not just the 10 tribes.

In Paul's metaphor of the olive tree of Israel in Romans 11, he says something that sounds very much like all the branches were not broken off.

"But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,"  (Romans 11:17)

[8thdaypriest]

21 hours ago, Martn said:

My understanding is that no one ever comes to Jesus unless they are in fact, somewhere along the line, literal descendants of at least one of the tribes of Israel. Wherever their descendants have been scattered among the Gentiles, the Spirit knows who they are and calls them home. At this point in time, or sometime in the future, that could quite possibly mean every single person on earth, because of all the intermarrying which we know has happened.

No one comes to the father except through him, for there is no other name under heaven whereby they can be saved, we are told.

However, there are those to whom the father has come, and so they do not need to go through a mediator, because the father has come to them. For while there may be no one else under heaven through whom they can be saved, there can be others in heaven able to save.  

 So you believe that Jesus died for those of Hebrew ancestry.

I was familiar with this teaching, within Messianic Judaism.  Messianic Judaism also teaches that those of Hebrew descent will one day rule all other nations.  [I disagree totally.]

It sounds just like the belief held by Jews during the time of Jesus, that descendants of Abraham/Jacob were somehow better than other nations or races - that they stood in right relation to God, and would therefore be "saved" (go to Abraham's bosom at death).   This attitude of exclusivity and superiority cost them dearly.  It resulted in all other nations hating them, and persecuting them. 

Rather than teaching "the nations" the "ways of the LORD" the 10 Northern Tribes turned to idolatry.  Judah built walls to keep the Gentiles OUT.  The teaching that resting on the 7th day was "forbidden" to non-Jews, was just another wall. 

This belief of superiority and exclusivity, is one of the things Jesus attacked the MOST. 

The parable of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus was ABOUT this belief.  The Gentiles were VIEWED as "unclean" in the eyes of the Jews. 

Jesus sent his disciples to "all the nations" and commanded them, "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you". 

The "great multitude" which John saw standing before the throne, with victory palm branches, are from "all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues".

The 24 elders of Revelation Cpt 5, who are "priests" and "kings" - who will "reign on the earth",  are "redeemed" "out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation." 

Concerning the need for a MEDIATOR:

Jesus is "the way", and the ONLY way.  Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father except through me."  No one. NRS

"No one knows the Son except the Father.  Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and he to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." 

Acts 4:12 "There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among mortals by which we must be saved." (NRS)

DURING Jesus incarnation, God the Father did "draw" individuals to Jesus, by His Spirit.  During that time ONLY, the world was without a Mediator in the spirit realm.

[Ron Amnsn]

On 9/26/2016 at 5:17 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

Paul says believing Gentiles are "grafted" into the Tree.   (Right now - the largest number of persons "grafted" onto that Tree - are believing Gentiles!!)

He also says "native branches" can be grafted in "again" - IF they do not continue in unbelief. 

Romans 11:23 [native branches]  "And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again."

But that would mean there are DNA descendants of Abraham/Jacob who are NOT attached to THAT Olive Tree (Israel). 

So - at this moment - if they do not believe in Christ, and do not draw nourishment from that holy "root" - THEN they are NOT Israelites (at least in the eyes of Heaven). 

ONLY "those of faith are sons of Abraham" (Gal 3:7).  

Those who do NOT believe in Jesus are NOT "of faith".   They ARE NOT "sons of Abraham" (in the sight of Heaven). 

If we look at the context of Gal 3:7 we find that Paul is using Abraham as an example of a person who has the right kind of faith.  Did Abraham's faith include belief in a person named "Jesus"?  Apparently not, since the name of Messiah was not announced until the angel spoke to Mary some centuries later (and then the name was not actually "Jesus", which is a relatively recent invention, but was a Hebrew name related to the word for "salvation").

Abraham's faith included faith in God's promises which resulted in obedience to God's Instructions.  Was Abraham's faith perfect?  No.  He faltered at times.   Specifically Abraham had faith in God's promise of a redeemer, often referred to as "Messiah" (or "Christ" for those who prefer Greek).  That faith of Abraham seems very similar to the faith I currently see among the Jewish people, who also have faith in God's promises which results in obedience. And many Jewish people are looking forward in faith to the coming of Messiah, just as Abraham did.

The faith of religious Jews today is, in some aspects, more like the faith of Abraham than the faith of many Christians.  The Jews believe that God remains faithful to his promises and covenants (as God says he does), while many Christians believe God has reneged on his promises and covenants to the Israelites (in spite of the fact that God specifically said he would remain faithful).  The Jews believe that obedience is an important component of faith, while many Christians believe they are demonstrating faith by intentionally disobeying the parts of God's Word they have deemed to be "obsolete" (even though Messiah specifically taught otherwise).

The vast majority of Jewish people today have never heard a truthful presentation about Jesus.  Instead they have heard that Jesus rejected the Jews and hates Jews, and that Jesus did away with God's law.  In short, what they have heard about Jesus is largely false, and they are correct in rejecting those false teachings about Jesus, and continuing to look for a Messiah that honors God's Word.

Do you think Jesus authorized us to judge whether Jews and Israelites we have never met are broken off from Israel?

[8thdaypriest]

42 minutes ago, Ron Amnsn said:

In Paul's metaphor of the olive tree of Israel in Romans 11, he says something that sounds very much like all the branches were not broken off.

"But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,"  (Romans 11:17)

OK Ron.  I'll bite. 

What "branches" do you think were NOT "broken off"? 

I can agree that individuals of FAITH, who sincerely sought the LORD with humility of heart were NOT "broken off" from "the Tree". 

I just don't believe there were very many of them.  7000, out of hundreds of thousands is NOT very many. 

Jeremiah 3:14 "Return, faithless people," declares the LORD, "for I am your husband. I will choose you-- one from a town and two from a clan-- and bring you to Zion."

Jeremiah is writing AFTER the LORD divorced the 10 Tribes (Israel) and BEFORE "the husband" of Israel died. 

When the husband dies, you START OVER with a new covenant of marriage - which is exactly what the New Covenant IS.  Jesus is betrothed to believers, regardless of DNA.  His "bride" is the New Jerusalem - Israel redeemed. 

The gates into the City may be named for the original 12 tribes, but the FOUNDATIONS are named for the 12 Apostles.  The City is modeled after the 12 tribes, but it is BUILT UPON the gospel message - the message given by the 12 Apostles.  The foundation stone is Jesus. 

Psalm 105:8-10 “He is mindful of his covenant forever, of the word that he commanded, for a thousand generations, the covenant that he made with Abraham, his sworn promise to Isaac, which he confirmed to Jacob as a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant, (NRS)

This "everlasting covenant" (of promise) was spoken BEFORE the Mount Sinai Covenant (of marriage).   This covenant is fulfilled THROUGH Jesus Christ - the only obedient “seed of Abraham”.  

Jesus was "obedient unto death".  Therefore Jesus will receive the rewards of "the covenant" - the land and dominion. 

ONLY as we are His subjects will we be allowed to live in HIS kingdom forever.  

[8thdaypriest]

24 minutes ago, Ron Amnsn said:

The vast majority of Jewish people today have never heard a truthful presentation about Jesus.  Instead they have heard that Jesus rejected the Jews and hates Jews, and that Jesus did away with God's law.  In short, what they have heard about Jesus is largely false, and they are correct in rejecting those false teachings about Jesus, and continuing to look for a Messiah that honors God's Word.

Do you think Jesus authorized us to judge whether Jews and Israelites we have never met are broken off from Israel?

Then they are living in IGNORANCE, which means their rejection of the false "Jesus" can be forgiven. 

How is it then, that so many of Jewish ancestry have turned TO Yeshua.  I know three such persons, personally. 

[Martn]

13 hours ago, Seventh Day said:

What about the strangers?

The strangers, the aliens, the converts, within our midst, are drawn to Jesus and thence to Torah because the spirit of our fathers is with them. In other words, as I understand it, the strangers' ancestry (DNA) comes at least in part from one of the tribes of Israel, and the spirit of the fathers tugs on that, drawing them homeward.

[8thdaypriest]

51 minutes ago, Ron Amnsn said:

The faith of religious Jews today is, in some aspects, more like the faith of Abraham than the faith of many Christians.  The Jews believe that God remains faithful to his promises and covenants (as God says he does), while many Christians believe God has reneged on his promises and covenants to the Israelites (in spite of the fact that God specifically said he would remain faithful).  The Jews believe that obedience is an important component of faith, while many Christians believe they are demonstrating faith by intentionally disobeying the parts of God's Word they have deemed to be "obsolete" (even though Messiah specifically taught otherwise).

The vast majority of Jewish people today have never heard a truthful presentation about Jesus.  Instead they have heard that Jesus rejected the Jews and hates Jews, and that Jesus did away with God's law.  In short, what they have heard about Jesus is largely false, and they are correct in rejecting those false teachings about Jesus, and continuing to look for a Messiah that honors God's Word.

Do you think Jesus authorized us to judge whether Jews and Israelites we have never met are broken off from Israel?

 

If they are not drawing their nourishment from Christ, then they are NOT attached to "the Tree" which has Jesus as it's holy "root". 

Ovbiously - they ARE STILL "of Israel" because they are descended from Him, so far as "the flesh".

Paul also said, "For they are not all Israel who are of [descended from] Israel" (Rom 9:6 NKJ)  This is the Israel of FAITH. 

So once again, we are speaking of TWO DIFFERENT Israels.  One of flesh - and one of faith (in Jesus). 

 

Romans 11:7  What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, (NIV)

The "elect" among them, would be what is left of the "branch" of Judah.

------------------------------------

And HOW were they "hardened"? 

"God has given them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, to this very day."  (Romans 11:8)  (Isaiah 29).

Now WHO do you think that "spirit of stupor" might be? 

Just like the spirit that came over King Saul, and the spirit that came over Pharoah, God cannot PROTECT human beings from the Evil One if they persistently resist His own spirit. 

--------

You are baiting again.  We are NOT speaking about individuals, or judging individuals.   We are speaking - in general - about those who refuse to acknowledge Yeshua as Messiah, as LORD, as worthy of worship, as the ONLY way to salvation and eternal life. 

[Martn]

56 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

 So you believe that Jesus died for those of Hebrew ancestry.

Nu

[Martn]

1 hour ago, Ron Amnsn said:

"But if some of the branches were broken off

(Romans 11:17)

"Some" means only a "few" and so the majority of Jews were NOT removed.

The olive tree in Romans 11, as Paul himself says, does not represent all twelve tribes, but only the tribes which remained with Judah, and only "some" of these were broken off, he says.

[8thdaypriest]

Just now, 8thdaypriest said:

The vast majority of Jewish people today have never heard a truthful presentation about Jesus.  Instead they have heard that Jesus rejected the Jews and hates Jews, and that Jesus did away with God's law.  In short, what they have heard about Jesus is largely false, and they are correct in rejecting those false teachings about Jesus, and continuing to look for a Messiah that honors God's Word.

Do you think Jesus authorized us to judge whether Jews and Israelites we have never met are broken off from Israel?

Unlike you Ron, I believe that all of those who died in ignorance (not willful ignorance) will be resurrected at the 8th millennium, to HEAR the truth, and then to CHOOSE whether they will worship Christ as King - or NOT. 

Jewish people who lived as obediently as possible, and died without ever understanding just WHO Yeshua was (and is) - through no fault of their own, can be resurrected with "the rest of the dead".  I do not believe "the rest of the dead" are all of "the lost".  I believe they are people that God can still "save". 

[8thdaypriest]

17 minutes ago, Martn said:

The strangers, the aliens, the converts, within our midst, are drawn to Jesus and thence to Torah because the spirit of our fathers is with them. In other words, as I understand it, the strangers' ancestry (DNA) comes at least in part from one of the tribes of Israel, and the spirit of the fathers tugs on that, drawing them homeward.

Martn,  that "spirit of the father" has NOTHING to do with DNA.  That "spirit" was the pre-incarnate Christ.  And since He rose and ascended, that "spirit" is the spirit of Christ.  

"the last Adam became a life-giving spirit" (1Co 15:45 NRS)  That is why Jesus said, "I am with you always." 

[8thdaypriest]

10 minutes ago, Martn said:

"Some" means only a "few" and so the majority of Jews were NOT removed.

ONLY "the elect" found it.  All "the rest" WERE "broken off". 

[Martn]

3 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Martn,  that "spirit of the father" has NOTHING to do with DNA.

I did not capitalize spirit in this instance because I was not referring only to God, but to the spirit of our fathers --our fathers' spirit, all inclusive.

[8thdaypriest]

22 hours ago, Martn said:

On this and other points you have accused me falsely.

Who is the accuser of the brethren?

 

Martn, you said - that you believe - only those of Hebrew ancestry (somewhere back in their DNA) felt the drawing. 

If I misunderstood - I apologize. 

[8thdaypriest]

Just now, Martn said:

I did not capitalize spirit in this instance because I was not referring only to God, but to the spirit of our fathers --our fathers' spirit, all inclusive.

So you believe that having Hebrew DNA, somehow makes one more sensitive to God? 

[Martn]

5 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

ONLY "the elect" found it.  All "the rest" WERE "broken off". 

So then, when Paul says that only "some" of the Jews were broken off, he must have been mistaken, for this would mean a lot more than just some of them were removed.

I, however, don't think Paul was mistaken on that point.

[Martn]

2 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

So you believe that having Hebrew DNA, somehow makes one more sensitive to God? 

Nu

[8thdaypriest]

1 minute ago, Martn said:

So then, when Paul says that only "some" of the Jews were broken off, he must have been mistaken, for this would mean a lot more than just some of them were removed.

I, however, don't think Paul was mistaken on that point.

He didn't say "some of the Jews".    He said some branches - on the TREE (which represented Israel from it's beginning). 

[Martn]

 

11 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

you said - that you believe - only those of Hebrew ancestry (somewhere back in their DNA) felt the drawing

I believe everyone, by now, has Hebrew ancestry, and that everyone on earth therefore is being drawn. That is what I have said repeatedly.

But, even so, I don't believe that having Hebrew DNA makes one more sensitive than others or that it is what is causing the draw. It is why they are drawn, but it is not what is drawing them.

[Martn]

8 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

He didn't say "some of the Jews".    He said some branches - on the TREE (which represented Israel from it's beginning). 

Read carefully, the olive tree, as it is used n Romans, refers only to the tribes of Judah, the Jews, not to the tribes of the House of Israel.

And Romans does say that only "some" of them were broken off, not most or all.

[Ron Amnsn]

39 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Unlike you Ron, I believe that all of those who died in ignorance (not willful ignorance) will be resurrected at the 8th millennium, to HEAR the truth, and then to CHOOSE whether they will worship Christ as King - or NOT. 

I'm quite certain you don't know what I believe regarding those who die in ignorance, although you're probably safe in assuming that my beliefs differ from yours in some respect.

[Ron Amnsn]

2 hours ago, Seventh Day said:

If I may chip in. It happened about 4 BC to 30 AD with the tree where it stood in the land of Judea, when in the First Month of the year on Boneday the fourteenth to the sixteenth days of the month it finally burned out into the roots underground. Moses foresaw its event in hundreds of Scriptures one of is Exodus 24:10.

Deur swart en goudgeel gange van ou stam

bewe-brand na onder nog gryslig as

waar uit diep pers wortelholtes

blank sy gees na boontoe dool.

 

Maybe you intended a different verse than Exodus 24:10 which in English says, "and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself."

Google Translate identified your second paragraph as Afrikaans, and translated into English as,

   Black and golden corridors of ancient tribe
   quake burning down more than gryslig
   where from deep purple wortelholtes
   blank his mind upward indole.

I'm not convinced that Google Translate understands what you posted.

[8thdaypriest]

18 hours ago, Seventh Day said:

That's self-contradictory!

<<<DURING Jesus incarnation, ... During that time ONLY, the world was without a Mediator in the spirit realm.>>>

But you just said,

<<<DURING Jesus incarnation, God the Father did "draw" individuals to Jesus, by His Spirit.  ...>>>

?????

Jesus was in the physical realm - NOT in the spirit realm, during his incarnation.  Right?

The Father exists in the Spirit realm.  He sits on a throne, but is also everywhere by His spirit.  So that is how the Father could "draw" people to Jesus, while Jesus was on this earth. 

Jesus gave up his own divine power, when He incarnated as a human being.  He became dependent upon His Father, for the indwelling, just like all of us. 

[8thdaypriest]

11 hours ago, jackson said:

The only law God spoke out loud to the people was the 10 Commandments.. He also wrote these 10 commandments on stone by his own hand., and notice that He added nothing to these ten commandments.

Deut  4:36; 5:22, "Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice, that he might instruct thee: ...These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me." 

The Law of Moses was spoken by God to Moses only, and Moses relayed them to the people.

Deut 4:13-14, "And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it."

2 Kings 21:8, "Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them, and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them."

Please don't combine or confuse the 10 commandments with the Law of Moses. The former was instituted before sin and is the test of sin for all mankind. The latter was instituted because of sin,  and its sacrifices and ceremonies met their end at the cross. The law of Moses was not written in stone either literally or figuratively.

I believe "the LORD's appointed times" also preceded Mt Sinai, and will be the appointed times to go up to worship the LORD in the earth made new.