Are graves actually opened up at the 2nd coming?

[Robert]

While this painting is comforting is it factual?  Does Christ literally open the graves of the saved?  Does He really need to get to our rotted, dusty Adamic life just below the tombstone or does He simply call us (i.e., the new us*) into existence? 

* 1 Cor 15:51; Matt 22:30

[Robert]

Quote

"As the little infants come forth immortal from their dusty beds, they immediately wing their way to their mothers’ arms." Ellen White, Heaven, page 45

I agree that we will be raised, not with bodies of "flesh and blood" (see 1 Cor 15:50), but with glorified, sinless bodies.  We will be like the angels.

I believe EGW's description of infants having wings is technically accurate.  However, I question if Christ actually reuses our remains ("dust").  Why would He do that?

I know this is a bit weird, but sometimes questions need asking.

 

 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I've asked something like that before.  There's an awful lot of dead people who aren't in graves, and whose ashes were cast to the winds or sprinkled in the oceans.  I always thought it would be weird to see a bunch of people pop up out of the water, but I suppose it wouldn't be any stranger than seeing people pop up out of the ground like it was a toaster.

[CoAspen]

We always picture Angels as having wings. Is that factual? Is it a metaphor for 'flying', moving through the air? Could that be what it means about being like angels? How did the original writers develop their views about flying other than seeing birds?

Families are reunited, angel families, new species? Events are described by using common knowledge of language from the writers era. How does the actual event take place, don't know. I think the important message is that the dead are brought back to life. The picture conveys that idea.

[Green Cochoa]

God doesn't need the same elements to reinstate the body in the resurrection.  However, He is certainly capable of using them.  Here's another quote you might like on this subject:

Moses erred as he was about to enter the Promised Land. So also, I saw that William Miller erred as he was soon to enter the heavenly Canaan, in suffering his influence to go against the truth. Others led him to this; others must account for it. But angels watch the precious dust of this servant of God, and he will come forth at the sound of the last trump. {EW 258.2}

Ellen White also said:

   Our personal identity is preserved in the resurrection, though not the same particles of matter or material substance as went into the grave. The wondrous works of God are a mystery to man. The spirit, the character of man, is returned to God, there to be preserved. In the resurrection every man will have his own character. God in His own time will call forth the dead, giving again the breath of life, and bidding the dry bones live. The same form will come forth, but it will be free from disease and every defect. It lives again bearing the same individuality of features, so that friend will recognize friend. There is no law of God in nature which shows that God gives back the same identical particles of matter which composed the body before death. God shall give the righteous dead a body that will please Him.  {Mar 301.2}  

 

 

[Robert]

"Angels watch the precious dust of" William Miller.  Okay... Not sure of her point.

Yet "not the same particles of matter or material substance as went into the grave" are preserved in the resurrection.  

So then, why do angels watch the dust of William Miller since that dust is meaningless in the resurrection?  

Perhaps it will be that particular location that Christ will call Miller's glorified life into existence?  Perhaps location is everything because friends and family will be there too....

My two cents.

[Robert]

3 hours ago, CoAspen said:

We always picture Angels as having wings. Is that factual?

See Isaiah 6:2

[Robert]

3 hours ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

There's an awful lot of dead people who aren't in graves, and whose ashes were cast to the winds or sprinkled in the oceans.

Right, and I'm not sure, but I think some Christians are afraid of cremation.  Why?  I believe it goes back to this idea that Christ is going need some "dust".  

[Robert]

"The idea that cremation might interfere with God's ability to resurrect the body was refuted as early as the Octavius of Minucius Felix, in which he said: 'Every body, whether it is dried up into dust, or is dissolved into moisture, or is compressed into ashes, or is attenuated into smoke, is withdrawn from us, but it is reserved for God in the custody of the elements.'" Wikipedia

[CoAspen]

15 hours ago, Robert said:

See Isaiah 6:2

Events are described by using common knowledge of language from the writers era. How might such an event be described today? Think about it.

[Robert]

7 hours ago, CoAspen said:

Events are described by using common knowledge of language from the writers era. How might such an event be described today? Think about it.

I'm sure that Isaiah saw birds flying; therefore he knew what wings looked like.

I'm going to go with Isaiah's view that angels have wings.  The Bible testifies that they can appear without them too.  

 

[pierrepaul]

I always thought that the tradition of angels having wings came from the Torah's description of the cherubs' forming part of the ark of the covenant.

I would have also thought that after the experience in the Great War where artillery literally pulverized men to the point that there were no identifiable remains, that people would have dropped the notion of a bodily resurrection using the same matter as that with which we died, but perhaps not. In our old church cemetery, the faithful are buried facing east, to make the Lord's work a little easier as He won't have to turn them around on resurrection day.

[Unchained]

I’m not sure if it is possible to understand the “technical” aspects of the resurrection. The spiritual teaching about the resurrection is difficult enough to grasp in itself, and I doubt that we become any wiser by trying to speculate about the inner workings of something that essentially is a mystery. Paul uses metaphors from agriculture to explain the resurrection, he compares death to a seed that is buried in the ground, which eventually comes back to life as a living plant.

"It is the same with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body." ...

"The first man is from the earth, made of dust; the second man is from heaven. Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust, and like the one from heaven, so too those who are heavenly."

1 Corinthians 15:42-44, 47-48

Clear as mud?

 

[Robert]

On 9/8/2016 at 2:21 PM, pierrepaul said:

In our old church cemetery, the faithful are buried facing east, to make the Lord's work a little easier as He won't have to turn them around on resurrection day.

Yes, I understand this tradition, but He doesn't need our dust.  

Clearly "flesh & blood" (what we are) cannot inherit heaven.  Therefore we must be changed.  That change occurs "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye".  It will be Christ, who by  the power of His voice, calls us into a new existence. 

[Robert]

4 hours ago, Unchained said:

Clear as mud?

"For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom..." 1 Cor 1:25

We humans have no clue to the creative power of God.  The Bible is not a science book on how God scientifically creates.  If it were no one would understand it anyway...not even our pretentious scientists.  

[Aliensanctuary]

Probably due to the massive, widespread destruction, including mountains and islands disappearing, most cemeteries would also be ripped apart as a result of the violent shaking of the entire planet in its death throes. That, of course, would be the "shaking".

[Aliensanctuary]

It's the Spirit, I believe, the Creative, Healing, Life-Sustaining force in the universe, that is responsible for re-assembling humans from raw materials using their stored genetic codes and downloading their stored memories, essentially, re-incarnation, or cloning. It was Spirit that was responsible for the creation of life when the LORD gave the orders and the Spirit followed his blueprints. It is a very quick process, just as when the Spirit healed the sick and raised the dead following Christ's commands.

[Robert]

20 minutes ago, Aliensanctuary said:

the Spirit,....responsible for re-assembling humans from raw materials using their stored genetic codes....

The Spirit of God doesn't need raw materials.  He can call matter into existence.  

[Aliensanctuary]

In the case of humans, Spirit used "dust" of Earth to assemble them.

[Robert]

55 minutes ago, Aliensanctuary said:

In the case of humans, Spirit used "dust" of Earth to assemble them.

Yes, originally, but not at the 2nd coming:

Quote

 

1 Cor 5:47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man (i.e., 2nd Adam) is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall (future tense) also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep , but we shall all be changed—52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 

 

As of now we bear the image of Adam after the fall.  Hence "flesh and blood" - our humanity - cannot inherit the kingdom of God.  At the trumpet sound what we are "in Adam" must be changed to what we are "in Christ".  

 

[Robert]

23 minutes ago, Robert said:

As of now we bear the image of Adam after the fall.  Hence "flesh and blood" - our humanity - cannot inherit the kingdom of God.  At the trumpet sound what we are "in Adam" must be changed to what we are "in Christ".  

"In Christ, [we are] a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." 2  Cor 5:17 NKJV

Some versions state that we are "a new creature" in Christ.  Either way the idea is the same:  "We shall (future tense) also bear the image of the heavenly Man."

Where is this "new creation" now?

 Answer:  God "made us alive together with Christ, and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus" Eph 2:6 NASB

"In Christ" we have a glorified creation in heaven itself.  It is this "new creation" that Christ, our High Priest, presents before His Father and His law in the holiest of hollies. "In Christ" our "new creation" is "holy, and blameless".  See Col 1:22