Suspending the Sabbath

[Gail]

Quote

From the NET Bible:

John 7:20-24 The crowd answered, “You’re possessed by a demon! Who is trying to kill you?” Jesus replied, “I performed one miracle and you are all amazed. However, because Moses gave you the practice of circumcision not that it came from Moses, but from the forefathers, you circumcise a male child on the Sabbath. But if a male child is circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses is not broken, why are you angry with me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath? Do not judge according to external appearance, but judge with proper judgment.” 

Jesus was showing the Jews how their tradition nullified the 10 Commandments. The notation in the NET bible states this:

"If a male child is circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses is not broken. The rabbis counted 248 parts to a man's body. In the Talmud (b. Yoma 85b) R. Eleazar Ben Azariah (ca. A.D.100) states: 'If circumcision, which attaches to one only of the 248 members of the human body, suspends the Sabbath, how much more shall the saving of the whole body suspend the Sabbath?' So absolutely binding did rabbinic Judaism regard the command of Lev.12:3 to circumcise on the eighth day, that in the Mishnah m. Shabbat 18.3; 19.1,2; and m. Nedarim 3.11 all hold that the command to circumcise overrides the command to observe the Sabbath.

[Gail]

God did ordain circumcision...  At what point did it become a tradition of man?

What is Jesus' point here?

[Outta Here]

Interesting. I don't have an answer, but it sure is something to ponder!

[JoeMo]

19 hours ago, Gail said:

God did ordain circumcision...  At what point did it become a tradition of man?

What is Jesus' point here?

Circumcision itself never became a tradition of man; but NOT circumcising on Sabbath became a tradition of man.  Healing the sick and injured itself never became a tradition of man; but NOT doing it on the Sabbath did.  The rabbi's took the blessing of God's law and turned it into a tradition of man, thus turning the blessing of Sabbath into a burden.

[debbym]

Circumcision was performed on Sabbath, it was never the tradition of man to not perform circumcision on Sabbath.  The Jews believed the blessings of God were dependent on keeping the law including the Sabbath.  If they were not sinners but righteous then God could not but bless them.  They saw the judgement that came on sinners.  They became increasingly rigorous on every detail of observing the Sabbath, and thereby secured the favor of heaven.  The thought that God loved sinners and loved the sick who were in someway under a curse and were obvious deep sinners for only terrible sinners became sick... was in complete contradiction to their righteousness and blessed standing before God.  Jesus was challenging their deep bigotry right where it lived... in the badge of proper Sabbath keeping.  How dare Jesus bless sinners.

Jesus was forfeiting the blessings of God and was not as righteous as they were......

[JoeMo]

One thing we modern folk need to remember is that the folks from the OT did not have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight to see where they were making their errors.  We can look back at the Law being given; and I don't think most of the Hebrews could relate the Law of circumcision and sacrifices as types of the Savior to come.  They (and their descendants) were looking for a worldly Lord and King.  Even the apostles didn't understand what Jesus meant when He gave them the sign of Jonah.  The guys on the road to Emmaus  didn't even understand the resurrection.  I'm not so sure that even satan knew the full consequences of killing Jesus.  We need to give them (except satan) a little grace.

"No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. ⁸ None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." (I Cor. 2:7-8)

SDAs have a few man-made traditions of our own that arguably "suspend Sabbath - like exchanging cash for a Sabbath meal ticket at camp meeting.  It's still "buying lunch"; just using Adventist script instead of U.S. Gov't script; or talking about money and other church "business matters" from the pulpit on Sabbath.

[Gail]

Do you think the reason that Jesus mentioned this instance to the people was because circumcision was a sign of being a son of Abraham, whereas the Sabbath is a sign of God's station as our Creator?

I can imagine this as another example of His' fulfilling of the law.

[debbym]

In a world where sinful self will reigned in human hearts unless God was allowed to intervene, the cutting of the flesh was a symbol of the self denial that occurred in anyone who had faith towards God and stepped away from service to sin to serving the will of God.  It was a mark of the identity of a people with a divine purpose walking in an eternal covenant relationship with God.  Entering into this blood covenant with God one circumcised their male babies.  Adult males who wished to enter this covenant relationship would also allow this service to be performed.  No one circumcised themselves it was performed on them.  This makes me think of baptism which now both male and female participate in, and which you cannot do to yourself, and it is accompanied by vows of commitment and involved consecration to God's will.  The children could grow up knowing their parents obeyed the Lord and set them apart to do God's will.  Jesus knew he was going to be born into the human family and he set up this service to be in perpetual obedience knowing he would be one of those babies so consecrated at birth to fulfill the will of God.  The circumcision that pointed to the covenant offered by Christ is fulfilled by Christ.

The shedding of blood was a symbol of the blood of Christ by which the covenant was ratified.  We now enter this covenant at Christ's invitation by baptism, and then by a daily baptism  we die to our self will and by the power of God do God's will.  Christ fulfills the conditions for us to enter into this covenant in us.

Jesus marked the end of  everything in the Jewish economy that pointed to him.  He was the fulfillment of the temple services and the feasts, all the blood sacrifices and the circumcision.  His blood was the blood that established the covenant for eternity no more blood needed to be shed.  Jesus self denial was perfect and complete, His self control stronger that death, His sacrifice was sinless and able to pay the price to redeem the race and bring an end to all sin in the universe forever.  In the Jewish religious services all other blood shed was animal blood.  The blood of the circumcision was human blood showing dedication of humanity to God.

The Sabbath was given before man sinned.  Jesus rested from the labor of creation with Adam and Eve and entered into a whole relationship with them on the Sabbath. And then Jesus rested on the Sabbath after finishing the work of redeeming the human race.   The Sabbath  observance is a spiritual experience possible only by the redeeming power of Jesus in our hearts.   It is an experience of a blessing in our relationship with God,  sign of God being our creator and redeemer.   The one who created us also is the one who redeems us from the power of selfishness, and sanctifies us day by day. The Sabbath observance had been reduced to a set of rules to follow by which you could force God to bless you.  And circumcision was also one of the rules you followed to secure God's blessings.  They were in fear of losing God's blessings but also in growing resentment towards Christ who was free of fear and full of power to do miraculous things.  

Jesus asked them to look beyond the external and they were confounded.

 

[Gustave]

In Judaism the uncircumcised couldn't "observe" or "keep" the Sabbath because the individual was already cutt off from the people. The reason circumcision suspended the Sabbath was because it ranked higher than the Sabbath because being uncircumcised invalidated the individuals participation in it. I think Jesus's point was if it's ok to fix one thing wrong with a person why not fix or heal the whole person. This was something the Jewish religious Authority could have easily done via Bnd & Lsing but they didn't lift a finger to do it.

[Gustave]

On ‎10‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 3:19 PM, Seventh Day said:

Your bible ... mine has nothing of it in it.

That relationship debbym spoke about was to be "perpetual". Our 1st parents were created to live eternally in God's Rest but fell and were subsequently kicked out of God's Rest. The Sabbath wasn't intended to be perfection that rotted away and was reborn 7 days later over and over again. Humanity was intended to live perpetually in God's Rest.

 

 

[Ron Amnsn]

On 9/26/2016 at 6:18 PM, debbym said:

Jesus marked the end of  everything in the Jewish economy that pointed to him.

Where are the Bible passages that teach this?
Who gets to decide which things "pointed to him" and have therefore ended?

[debbym]

On 9/25/2016 at 0:34 PM, Gail said:

Jesus was showing the Jews how their tradition nullified the 10 Commandments. The notation in the NET bible states this:

"If a male child is circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses is not broken. The rabbis counted 248 parts to a man's body. In the Talmud (b. Yoma 85b) R. Eleazar Ben Azariah (ca. A.D.100) states: 'If circumcision, which attaches to one only of the 248 members of the human body, suspends the Sabbath, how much more shall the saving of the whole body suspend the Sabbath?' So absolutely binding did rabbinic Judaism regard the command of Lev.12:3 to circumcise on the eighth day, that in the Mishnah m. Shabbat 18.3; 19.1,2; and m. Nedarim 3.11 all hold that the command to circumcise overrides the command to observe the Sabbath.

What is interesting is that it did not override the Sabbath to Circumcise, but they thought of it that way.

To do the work of God and the will of God on the Sabbath does not break the Sabbath.

So we prepare a lunch for the Homeless on Sabbath, we serve them... and some Sabbath keepers may see this as breaking the Sabbath.  

The priests labored more in the Temple on the Sabbath day than they did all week, and it was not considered breaking the Sabbath.

In their hatred of Christ, they were blinded and could not see the glory of His actions of mercy on or off of the Sabbath.  In their clinging to their self righteousness, they did not allow themselves to step into the righteousness of Christ, it was a foreign thing.  They did not live by faith but they lived by sight...  They had to see their good works as constant assurance that they were in God's favor.  

Jesus was righteous by faith.  He said, "of myself i can do nothing."  He walked with God by faith.  He trusted His Father's words to him.  He lived by every word.  He quoted this scripture to the enemy in the desert.  "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God." God had said, "This is my beloved Son in whom i am well pleased."

What we will have, in ordered to be recognized as God's people, will be what is called in In Revelation "The faith of Jesus" who lived by the word or the commands of  God.... in our hearts and in our lives.  That is why they are both mentioned, Faith and the words, or commandments of God.  Faith hears the word and the person is empowered to do the word of God.

People seem to fear that if you (generic you) are relying on the Word of God instead of your good works that you will be merely experiencing cheap grace.  But if you are living by the power of God's word you will do God's will.  The power of God in His word does not lend itself to performing sin.  And what is not of faith is sin.  But the Self righteous will not be able to recognize it, and will be able to be accusing and condemning you.

What a meditation, i am so blessed this morning.

[Gail]

It has blessed me as well! Thanks for your thoughts!