Former Adventist Fellowship Forum

[Robert]

I'm dealing with doctrinal issues of former SDA as found on http://www.formeradventist.com/

It's hard for me to believe that ex-SDA have practically thrown away every doctrine, especially the Sabbath and the Biblical doctrine that fallen man does not have an immortal soul. 

Here's a current conversation going on:

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FAF member (unnamed):   "Welcome to the forum, (my username) . The state of man in death is one of the later and harder doctrines to grapple with...but if Scripture is the inerrant word of God (and it is!), then what it says has to be true. The Adventist teaching on the nature of man is wrong, and that error skews the doctrines of sin, salvation, and the nature of Christ....  Corinthians 5:1-9 and Philippians 1:22-23 are very clear that "we" (the real, essential US) reside in mortal tents, but we are present with the Lord when absent from the body."

[Robert]

My replies:

I'm going to have to strongly disagree with the position of an immortal spirit/soul, that is, a position that insists that something lives on after the death of a believer and enters heaven itself shortly after the death of the body. But first let me look at your reference, 2 Cor 5:1-9 

Verse 5 For we know that if our earthly house, the tent we live in (i.e., one's fallen "body" - see verse 8), is dismantled, we have a building from God, a house not built by human hands, that is eternal in the heavens. 

Please note that we already (present tense) have a new creation - i.e., "a building from God...eternal in the heavens". That is why Paul states, "Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation" 2 Cor 5:17 So we, as children of Adam, already have a glorified "building" in heaven itself. 

I'll give you some more verses to prove my position: 

"For He (God that Father) rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." Col 1:13,14 NASB Note that according to Paul, God has already transferred "us" (our "new creation") into heaven itself. 

"God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus...." Eph 2:6 NIV 

God "raised us up with Him (Christ), and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus..." NASB 

So, I can conclude, that "in Christ" I now have a "new creation", holy & blameless before God. 

Since I already have a glorified life "in Christ" why does some component of my fallen life need to go to heaven upon my death? The answer is something doesn't go to heaven at death because the believer already has his new life residing "in Christ" right now as I write. 

Now lets turn to Col 1:22 "He (Christ, our High Priest) has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach..." 

Are we "holy and blameless"? No! We are sinners saved by grace. Then why does Paul state we are "holy and blameless" in Christ's "fleshly body"? Because at the resurrection Christ was raised, not as He was before (see 2 Cor 5:16), but with a glorified, sinless new creation. He took this corporate life to heaven where He represent our new lives "holy & blameless" before God Himself. Therefore "in Christ" we are complete by faith. See Col 2:10 

 

[Robert]

If one believes that he has an immortal soul then he must also believe that something "good" resides in his fallen humanity. The question is do we have anything good in our fallen, humanity? Clearly not: 

Mark 7:21 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.” 

So "within" us there's nothing good and immortal. 

Paul agrees: Romans 7:18 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells..." 

Since nothing good dwells in our humanity then no component of us is naturally good. The whole man, body, soul & spirit has been polluted by iniquity. Therefore, "As it is written: 'There is none righteous, no, not one.'" Rom 3:10 

We must understand that sin and mortality are linked as are righteousness and immortality. To say we have some component is us that is immortal is to say we have something good in us that doesn't need the righteousness of Christ. 

Hence the teaching of an immortal soul is a self-righteous, anti-gospel doctrine. Apparently SDA are not the only ones teaching subtle legalism. 

[Robert]

As I previously stated, "We must understand that sin and mortality are linked as are righteousness and immortality." 

Here's evidence: 

1 Cor 15:47 "The first man (Adam) was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man (i.e., "the last Adam" - see 1 Cor 15:45) is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust (Adam) so also are those who are made of dust (i.e., his fallen, offspring); and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly (compare Eph 2:6). 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust (Adam), we shall also bear (future tense) the image of the heavenly Man (Christ)." 

Please note verse 49. We are now in the image of fallen, Adam. We are unrighteous and mortal. In the future, at the 2nd coming of Christ, we will then bear the image of the last Adam! 

When do we bear the image of the last Adam, Christ? 

verse 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep (remain dead), but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet (i.e., at the 2nd coming). For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this....mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when ... this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” 

Please note the clear context: We are now mortal - body, soul and spirit. We must be changed into the image of Christ. Only then will this mortal, sinful life be immortal & righteous. 

Again, the teaching of an immortal soul is a self-righteous, anti-gospel doctrine.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Robert, did you want this thread to deal with FAF, or with SDA doctrines?

(If it's the FAF, you'll have more than just SDA doctrines to contend with in that forum.  While there are some very nice people there, there are also some very embittered, angry people who really seem to have nothing better to do than to make the SDA church look as bad and ugly as possible.)

[Robert]

2 hours ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

Robert, did you want this thread to deal with FAF, or with SDA doctrines?

FAF

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....there are also some very embittered, angry people who really seem to have nothing better to do than to make the SDA church look as bad and ugly as possible.

Yes, I noticed.....

Look, I too was embittered, but then I realized it was my fault for making Ellen White the final word when she clearly didn't make herself that.  And yes legalism is a terrible experience...you have no peace, no assurance and it makes you mean and bitter.  

[8thdaypriest]

I like  1 John 5:11-12   “God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.”

Romans 2:7  “. . . seek for immortality.”    Why would we be told to seek for something which we all naturally possess?

Ecclesiastes 12:7  “Then the dust [body] will return to the earth as it was,
     and the spirit will return to God who gave it.”

        According to this verse, “the spirit” returns to God regardless of the character of the person to whom it was given!  Upright or evil - the spirit returns to God.

2 Corinthians 5:1-8:  mentions or alludes to THREE states

MORTAL BODY  “earthy house” -- “this tent”  --  “in this we groan” -- “at home in the body” -- “absent from the Lord”
                  
NEW IMMORTAL SPIRITUAL BODY  “a building from God”--“a house eternal in the heavens”--“further clothed”--“clothed with our habitation from heaven”--“mortality swallowed up of life.”
“absent from the [mortal physical ] body”--“present with the Lord”

DEAD -- "naked" -- "unclothed"  (without a "house" -meaning a body)

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

Robert,  there are two studies on my website.  1.  "Where are the Dead?"  and 2.  "Hell - What it's NOT""

Here are the links.  You might find something helpful. 

http://prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/Book Chapters/5-Where are the Dead.pdf

http://prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/Book Chapters/6-Hell.pdf

[Robert]

Well, no telling how much longer I'll will be allowed to be on FAF.  These guys, instead of refuting my statements, are on the attack.  Well, two can play their silly game.

 

Here's my last post:

 

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I said: "If we claim that anything in us (body, soul or spirit) is immortal then we are also claiming something in us to be righteous." 

What does the Bible say of those claiming to be without sin? 

1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin (or that something in us is without sin), we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 

The Pharisees of old were deceived by their own self-righteousness. 

Claiming that some component of your humanity is sinless and that, upon your death, it goes directly to the presence of God is  a self-righteous, anti-gospel doctrine. 

This FAF is not about truth, but finger pointing. You collectively point your finger at your former brothers & sisters proclaiming them to be a cult when you yourselves present cultist doctrines. That's the pot calling the kettle, black. 

As I've said, SDA have their problems...but so do you guys....

 

[Robert]

Well, they found a reason to get rid of me, but before they did I let them know they were a bunch of disgruntled, ex-Adventist who now thought they had the infallible truth.  They couldn't refute any of my posts; so they called me a "troll" and deleted my account.  

My threads were:

1] the Sabbath as connected to the gospel

2] the state of the dead

3] the gospel

These ex-SDA have lost their minds....They've thrown out the baby with the bathwater.  

Pam was right:  Most of them are a "very embittered, angry people" and I just made them foam at the mouth...

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

some are bitter... some are just truly searching..   

I was a member of FAF for a time when I wasn't in the church.

[GayatfootofCross]

When I was a coleporteur  I met so many XSDAs. I lived in an Adventist Ghetto and I was surrounded and saturated with Adventism which I felt at home with..

I remember as a very young naive idealic on fire for God deeply hiding man .. I couldnt understand why anyone would leave the Mother Church.

I would ask.. "Ummm did you read The Great Controversy?"  and then stunned when they said yes.

I couldn't process it.

Now decades later.. I understand.   Aside from the hurts and misunderstandings and spiritual abuse and church politics that was shared with me thru the years....

I now understand how our presentations,sermons,debate etc. can persuade and win over people.minds.

Answering much asked questions in their lives.

But we easily get convincing and conviction mixed up in the process.

We can win the best of arguments with our theology.

But unless the soul is converted and cherished and nourished and loved ..people do not stick around.

Oh sure it can become a lifestyle and circle of friends of familiarity with a weekly (if not daily) dose of  reassurance we are on the right track.

Challenged and inspired.

Sometimes creating  pendulums swinging drastically to and fro.

But it is not what keeps the soul safe.

Sometimes it's not enough to keep you attending and serving the Church.

What keeps the energy and fire in the belly is beholding  JESUS together and alone!

And JESUS is not often Front and Center in everything explored and presented.

Well at least not a noncondeming GOD that loves you just the way you are.

 

My heart goes out to these beautiful people in these XSDA internet sites.

Many are still trying to find their way in this world and now finding similar thinking comrades embolden them and solidifies their thinking.

In our approach we foolishly think a good argument is what is needed.

They need to loved on into the Kingdom.

5 hours ago, Robert said:

One approach is to find commonality as Paul looked for when presenting the Gospel.

Acts 17:16-34

...

Every Soul is Precious in His sight!.

I learned the hard way that a soul is not just a missionary project.or a castaway.

[CoAspen]

Lets be very careful that this Forum  doesn't become know as a 'finger pointing' one also. I do know of  people who have left because of that attribute also

[Gregory Matthews]

Robert said, below:

1)  Did you really expect them to let you stay?

2)  Why should they allow you to stay?

3)   Why should they not consider you to be a troll?

4)  What did you want to accomplish by going there?

5) Did you accomplish it?

6) Do you consider your method of relating to them to be an effective method that would accomplish your goal?

7) From your post below, you seem to be willing to play a game with them on their level.  E.G.  You are suggesting that you will become what you decry in them.

NOTE:  I am writing this after you have posted that they have banned you.
 

 

Well, no telling how much longer I'll will be allowed to be on FAF.  These guys, instead of refuting my statements, are on the attack.  Well, two can play their silly game.

[Gregory Matthews]

Robert, when you joined that ex-Adventist fellowship, you agreed to abide by their posted rules of behavior.  Rule # 8 states, below:

I will suggest that based upon your posting here in CA, most of us would think it highly unlikely that you engaged in discussion and not in debate.

In any case, if they saw you as debating, they had a right to exit you for violating the rules that you agreed to follow.

 

Discussion, but not debate, of differing viewpoints is welcome.

[Robert]

2 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Robert said, below:

1)  Did you really expect them to let you stay? No.

2)  Why should they allow you to stay? Why not?

3)   Why should they not consider you to be a troll?  Look, they aren't interested in truth so in the end they were going to come up with something.

4)  What did you want to accomplish by going there?  I think I ruined their "we have the infallible truth" mindset... 

5) Did you accomplish it? "I'll never know"

 

See red....

[Gregory Matthews]

Robert, I will comment on your numbered responses:

1)  O.K.  you did not expect them to let you stay.  That says a lot.  Why waste your time?  Perhaps you could have related to them in a manner that they would have allowed you to stay.  In that case you might have accomplished your mission/goal?

2) Because you violated their governing rules and probably intentionally.  You seem to have behaved in a manner that required them to exit you.

3) Judgmental.  Perhaps some would have listened to you if you had behaved differently.  But, you have clumped all into the same bucket and judged all.

4) Hardly.  You seem to value yourself on a higher plain than others see you.

5) Why?  It seems to me that you could well have a pretty accurate idea as to whether or not you accomplished your mission/goal.  If not, I will suggest that you have failed to evaluate your results and that it was possible for you to do so.

 

 

[Robert]

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

Sometimes I think Im so right that I end up being wrong.

I am very confident, in the Lord, that the gospel I present is the same one Paul presented.  If (and this goes for anyone) I am wrong prove me wrong from the Bible!

Now, as to these former-SDA, the one's that I  interacted came off very self-righteous...very smug.  They oozed with hate towards anything SDA.  

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If anything I would hope you learned that people who leave a church are generally not looking to fine tune doctrinal differences.

There was a thread named "the 2nd death". That took off into "the immortality of the soul".  At first they didn't know how to respond to me because I didn't sound like an SDA.  That's because I believe that all false doctrines attack the gospel; so that's how I handled it.  Instead of disproving me they immediately tried to attack me.  It was then I knew they weren't interested in anything resembling truth.  

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Do you really think I would enjoy you coming to my door and correcting my beliefs on "how to be saved?".

It was a forum...That's why they have forums....

[Robert]

1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Robert, I will comment on your numbered responses:

1)  O.K.  you did not expect them to let you stay.  That says a lot.  Why waste your time?  Perhaps you could have related to them in a manner that they would have allowed you to stay.  In that case you might have accomplished your mission/goal?

2) Because you violated their governing rules and probably intentionally.  You seem to have behaved in a manner that required them to exit you.

3) Judgmental.  Perhaps some would have listened to you if you had behaved differently.  But, you have clumped all into the same bucket and judged all.

4) Hardly.  You seem to value yourself on a higher plain than others see you.

5) Why?  It seems to me that you could well have a pretty accurate idea as to whether or not you accomplished your mission/goal.  If not, I will suggest that you have failed to evaluate your results and that it was possible for you to do so.

 

 

Greg,

I'm not interested in your assessment.  

Thanks, but no thanks.

Rob

[CoAspen]

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I am very confident, in the Lord, that the gospel I present is the same one Paul presented.  If (and this goes for anyone) I am wrong prove me wrong from the Bible!

Ahhh....a statement that says 'I am right', everyone else is wrong! 'Prove' means nothing is this statement. How many religious variations are there based on 'Bible Proof'? 

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I'm not interested in your assessment.

Ah, you proved my premise rather quickly!!!

[Gregory Matthews]

Robert, I am aware that you probably are not interested in my assessment. But, my primary audience in that post was not you.  Rather, it was other people reading your post and my response.  You simply gave me the platform to make my statement.

[Gregory Matthews]

CoAspen:  I doubt if Robert understands how often your observation Is demonstrated in him.

[GayatfootofCross]

5 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Robert, I am aware that you probably are not interested in my assessment. But, my primary audience in that post was not you.  Rather, it was other people reading your post and my response.  You simply gave me the platform to make my statement.

Yes I have been reading all the posts above by Robert  and 8thday Priest and The Wanderer and Pam  and Gregory Matthews and CoAspen and even including my own post again with much fascination.

Interesting subject matter Robert!

We see you!

 

[Robert]

7 hours ago, CoAspen said:

Ahhh....a statement that says 'I am right', everyone else is wrong! 'Prove' means nothing is this statement. How many religious variations are there based on 'Bible Proof'? 

Ah, you proved my premise rather quickly!!!

There is no truth, just massive confusion....Is that your point?  Speak up; don't be shy....

[Robert]

You know (thinking out loud), really, CA has some disgruntled SDA too....Just saying....