Will being 'good' assure you of heaven??

[Nicodema]

It triggers me too ... but I'm not afraid to grab it by the throat and spit into its eyes.

It triggers because in a very real sense, it is ALL of us. We are ALL that rapist behind bars claiming we are Christians, whether our crime is something as horrendous as rape or something "socially acceptable" like gaslighting others and blaming them for the reactions we provoke (misusing the concept of another's "personal responsibility" to serve our cruelties) or something else like a bad temper, cussing, eating too much, WHATEVER. We all still say "I'm a Christian" and we all still "rape little girls" (metaphorically speaking) while others dissect us and discuss whether we are "REALLY" Christians or not.

And THAT is why it's so triggering. Because the verdict matters -- to us personally. If we judge HE is not a Christian, what does that say about US with our OWN deplorable behaviors, habits, patterns, etc. that are still unrighteous and unChristlike? (Or do we slither back under the delusion that we are somehow "different from" [translate: better than] Mr. Rapist because our sins are "cleaner"???) Are we all just lying to and fooling ourselves about OURSELVES being "Christians"???

On the other hand if we judge he IS a Christian ... what will that do to our knowledge of right and wrong? Are we in jeopardy of antinomianism and heresy? Do we diminish the power of the gospel to change lives? If he is a "Christian" and we with OUR failings and sins are "Christians" then WHERE IS THE "CHRISTIANITY" in it all? Where is the power and promise of the gospel? Are we all just lying to and fooling ourselves about Christ changing lives???

It's a double-bind. A catch-22. No matter which way we judge Mr. Christian Rapist, we judge ourselves. And no matter which way we judge ourselves on this question, we lose. We either lose the comfort of knowing we're accepted with God -- and with it the hope of being so -- or we lose the hope of having that really make a difference and make us into different people than the same sinful selfish shmucks we've been.

Any way you slice it, it still "sucks".

[Clio]

I think that's what I was trying to say, but you said it so much clearer...

Thank you. I just couldn't quite get there today.

[Nicodema]

**safe gentle hug for Clio this time**

[Clio]

*sniff* Thanks sis... Needing it big time today.

[olger]

"I cannot know his heart. I can only know his actions."

Hi Clio.

Jesus had a lot to say about our hearts. He said that whatever was in the heart would come out in three ways.

1) The way that we talk. "Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks" (Matthew 12:34).

2) Our actions. (Matthew 15:18-19).

3) The way that we think. (Proverbs 23:7).

Our heart will reveal whatever is in it. That is why the Lord is in the business of healing our hearts and setting us free from the bondage of sin.

One day, a man walked into the synagogue. He had just come in out of the wilderness. He was a lot thinner than when He had went there. I guess that he cleaned Himself up and went to church. As they handed Him a book, He looked for a specific page and read from it. "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives..."

Handing the book back, He sat down. Jesus had just spoken to the heart of every person. You could have heard a pin drop in that large room... For a long moment no one said anything.

Have you been wounded in your heart? Jesus cares. He will heal. Have you lost your way? Jesus will give you vision. Are you in bondage to sin? Jesus will break the chains and set you free. Your heart will stretch its legs and run --unburdened.

Thank you for sharing your painful experience. I'm sorry that you had to go through that. I can tell that Jesus has healed much of the pain. God never wastes pain in our life.

bless you,

olger

[Clio]

Thanks olger. I appreciate your words today.

The pain is from other sources today. But thank you. Your reminder still applies.

Clio

[Dr. Shane]

[:"blue"] I will not post all of this here but if one follows the link they can read it. This is a sermon by Charles G. Finney - the Billy Grahm of Ellen White's day. Sister White references him in the Great Controversy on page 377. [/]

True & False Conversion

[:"red"] "But now, all you who light fires and provide yourselves with flaming torches, go, walk in the light of your fires and of the torches you have set ablaze. This is what you shall receive from My hand: you will lie down in torment." - Isaiah 50:11 [/]

Quote:

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We can see from this verse that the prophet was speaking to those who claimed to be religious, and who flattered themselves with the idea that they were in a state of salvation. But in fact, their hope was just a fire of their own kindling-torches created by themselves. Before I go any further in discussing the subject of true and false conversion, I want to say that it will only be of use to those who will be honest in applying it to themselves. If you hope to gain anything at all from what I'm going to say, you must decide to make a faithful application of it personally. Be just as honest as if you thought you were now going to stand before the Lord. If you will do this, then I hope to help you discover your true state with the Lord. If you are now deceived, I hope to direct you to the true path of salvation. But if you will not be honest, my preaching will be useless, and you will hear in vain.

---

Quote:

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Now I Want To Show Some Areas Where True Saints And Deceived Persons May Be The Same - And Some Areas Where They Are Different...

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1. They may agree in leading a strictly moral life. The difference is in their motives. The true saint leads a moral life because he loves holiness - the deceived person because of selfish considerations. He uses morality as a means to an end, to bring about his own happiness....

|

3. They may be equally zealous in religion. One may have great zeal because his zeal is according to knowledge, and he sincerely desires to serve the Lord for His sake. The false convert may show equal zeal, but for the sake of having his own salvation more assured, and because he is afraid of going to hell if he does not work for the Lord. He may also serve God to quiet his conscience, and not because he truly loves the Lord.

|

4. They may both love God's law - the true saint because it is so excellent, holy, just, and good; the other because he thinks it will make him happy if he loves it...

|

6. They may be equally self-denying in many things. Self-denial is not confined to true saints. Look at the sacrifices and self-denials of the Muslims, going on their pilgrimage to Mecca. Look at the discipline and self-denial of those lost in the cults and eastern religions. The true saint denies himself for the sake of doing more good to others. His sacrifices are not centered around his own gratification or his own interests. The deceived person may go to equal lengths, but from purely selfish motives.

|

7. They may both be willing to suffer martyrdom. Read the lives of the martyrs and you will have no doubt that some were willing to suffer from a wrong idea of the rewards of martyrdom. Many would rush to their own destruction because they were convinced that it was the sure road to eternal life...

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They may both desire the conversion of souls - the true saint because it will glorify God, the deceived person to gain the favor of God. He will be motivated by this, just as he is in giving money. Everyone knows that a person can give his money to the Bible Society or the Missionary Society from selfish motives alone - to gain happiness, praise from men, or obtain the favor of God. In the same way, he may desire the conversion of souls, and labor to promote it, from purely selfish motives.

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They may both desire to glorify God - the true saint because he loves to see God glorified, and the deceived person because he knows that is the way to be saved. The true convert has his heart set on the glory of God for His sake. The other desires it as a benefit to himself.

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They may both desire to repent. - The true convert hates sin because it hurts and dishonors God, and therefore he desires to repent of it. The false convert desires to repent because he knows that unless he does, he will be damned.

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They may both want to obey God. The true saint obeys so he may increase in holiness. The false convert obeys because he wants the rewards of obedience.

---

Quote:

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Many want to see people saved, not because their lives and deeds hurt and dishonor God, but because they feel sorry for them and don't want to see them go to hell. True saints are upset by sin because it is so dishonoring to God. But they are most distressed when they see Christians sin, because it dishonors God even more. Some people seem to care very little about the state of the church, as long as they can see the work of conversion go forward, to them, "successful" evangelistic efforts equal a "successful" church, but they are not really anxious to have God honored. This shows that they are not motivated by a genuine love for God and holiness, but by their own human feelings and emotions for sinners...

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Some view the Gospel as a mere convenience to mankind, where God is not as strict as He was under the law. They think that they can be as worldly as they want to be, and the Gospel will come in and make up what they lack and save them. Others view the Gospel as a divine provision from God, having as its main purpose the destruction of sin and the promotion of holiness. Therefore, far from making it acceptable for them to be less holy than they should be under the law, its whole value consists in its power to make them holy.

---

[:"red"] "Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you - unless you fail the test?" (II Cor. 13:5 NASB) [/]

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

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Clio said:

Just because my particular besetting sin that I struggle and struggle and struggle with is not as heinous,

in the eyes of

man

, does not mean that it is any better in the eyes of

Abba

!

---

One of the tragic circumstances that a falling away from the truth often brings about is that we feel the necessity of being accepted by men, after we have repented of the past. That is where satan employs his most successful attacks, getting us to believe we must please all men, insomuch that we are willing to retaliate whenever another make themselves available to the enemy of souls, to cast aspersions upon our character and reputation.

[:"red"] "[For my determined purpose is] that I may know Him [that I may progressively become more deeply and intimately acquainted with Him, perceiving and recognizing and understanding the wonders of His Person more strongly and more clearly], and that I may in that same way come to know the power outflowing from His resurrection [which it exerts over believers], and that I may so share His sufferings as to be continually transformed [in spirit into His likeness even] to His death, [in the hope]

That if possible I may attain to the [spiritual and moral] resurrection [that lifts me] out from among the dead [even while in the body].

Not that I have now attained [this ideal], or have already been made perfect, but I press on to lay hold of (grasp) and make my own, that for which Christ Jesus (the Messiah) has laid hold of me and made me His own.

I do not consider, brethren, that I have captured and made it my own [yet]; but one thing I do [it is my one aspiration]: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead,

I press on toward the goal to win the [supreme and heavenly] prize to which God in Christ Jesus is calling us upward.

So let those [of us] who are spiritually mature and full-grown have this mind and hold these convictions; and if in any respect you have a different attitude of mind, God will make that clear to you also." [/] Phillipians 3:10-15 AMP brackets parenthesis theirs LHC

Keep looking up!!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

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olger said:

God never wastes pain in our life.

bless you,

olger

---

[:"red"] "Who in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save Him from death, and was heard in that He feared;

Though He were a Son, yet learned He obedience by the things which He suffered..." [/] Hebrews 5:7-9 KJV

[:"red"] "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good.... " [/] Genesis 50:20 NASB

[Nicodema]

Quote:

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LifeHiscost said:

One of the tragic circumstances that a falling away from the truth often brings about is that we feel the necessity of being accepted by men, after we have repented of the past.

That is where satan employs his most successful attacks, getting us to believe we must please all men, insomuch that we are willing to retaliate

whenever another make themselves available to the enemy of souls

, to

cast aspersions upon our character and reputation.

---

I know you meant that response for Clio, but I think I will borrow it and ride on its coattails for a time, as it is like a word in due season to me. Thanks LHC!

[Nicodema]

Quote:

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Shane said:

Quote:

---

Now I Want To Show Some Areas Where True Saints And Deceived Persons May Be The Same - And Some Areas Where They Are Different...

|

1. They may agree in leading a strictly moral life. The difference is in their motives. The true saint leads a moral life because he loves holiness - the deceived person because of selfish considerations. He uses morality as a means to an end, to bring about his own happiness....

|

3. They may be equally zealous in religion. One may have great zeal because his zeal is according to knowledge, and he sincerely desires to serve the Lord for His sake. The false convert may show equal zeal, but for the sake of having his own salvation more assured, and because he is afraid of going to hell if he does not work for the Lord. He may also serve God to quiet his conscience, and not because he truly loves the Lord.

|

4. They may both love God's law - the true saint because it is so excellent, holy, just, and good; the other because he thinks it will make him happy if he loves it...

|

6. They may be equally self-denying in many things. Self-denial is not confined to true saints. Look at the sacrifices and self-denials of the Muslims, going on their pilgrimage to Mecca. Look at the discipline and self-denial of those lost in the cults and eastern religions. The true saint denies himself for the sake of doing more good to others. His sacrifices are not centered around his own gratification or his own interests. The deceived person may go to equal lengths, but from purely selfish motives.

|

7. They may both be willing to suffer martyrdom. Read the lives of the martyrs and you will have no doubt that some were willing to suffer from a wrong idea of the rewards of martyrdom. Many would rush to their own destruction because they were convinced that it was the sure road to eternal life...

|

They may both desire the conversion of souls - the true saint because it will glorify God, the deceived person to gain the favor of God. He will be motivated by this, just as he is in giving money. Everyone knows that a person can give his money to the Bible Society or the Missionary Society from selfish motives alone - to gain happiness, praise from men, or obtain the favor of God. In the same way, he may desire the conversion of souls, and labor to promote it, from purely selfish motives.

|

They may both desire to glorify God - the true saint because he loves to see God glorified, and the deceived person because he knows that is the way to be saved. The true convert has his heart set on the glory of God for His sake. The other desires it as a benefit to himself.

|

They may both desire to repent. - The true convert hates sin because it hurts and dishonors God, and therefore he desires to repent of it. The false convert desires to repent because he knows that unless he does, he will be damned.

|

They may both want to obey God. The true saint obeys so he may increase in holiness. The false convert obeys because he wants the rewards of obedience.

---

---

Sad thing is, Shane, many can also be deceived concerning their own motives and believe themselves to be in one camp when they are actually in another. The man who honestly thinks himself to "love holiness", for example, may have completely masked his own insecurities and be completely in denial about his true character and only BELIEVE himself to be a "lover of holiness" for the "right" reasons, when a peek into Absolute Objective Reality as it were would yield a much different verdict.

Because of this, I will not fret or quail when I compare myself to the list above and find all the ways in which I fall short. Rather I will rejoice that the Spirit of God is kind and merciful enough to me to permit me to see these and to NOT permit me to coast along in comfortable delusion about my situation. While I would solicit the prayers of true men and women of God for a deeper heart-change and heart-repentance in my life as a result, I would also say that those most in need of our prayers are those who read this list with eyes sewn shut to themselves and while the truth is else-wise, believe themselves to be 100% conformed to the "right reasons" listed above -- "rich, and increased with goods, and in need of nothing" (spiritually).

N.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

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Be just as honest as if you thought you were now going to stand before the Lord. If you will do this, then I hope to help you discover your true state with the Lord.

---

[Nicodema]

Yeah good instructions! But there are still those who believe they are being perfectly honest with themselves when they are still self-deceived. It's usually "innocent" I think -- I don't think they are deliberately fooling themselves -- but that doesn't make it any less spiritually deadly, and sometimes the Lord has to subject us to some unhappy trials to weed that one out.

But I could be totally wrong ... I'm still confused about a lot of things myself, especially when it comes to trying to figure out what things in my life have been trials from the Lord and what things have been attacks from Satan, and in that regard what things were both (attacks from the devil USED AS trials by God, a la Job, etc.) ... sometimes it's so awfully hard to "parse" reality from this side of the veil ... y'know?

That's part of why we need the Body ... and why it is so important for us all to be dedicated to God's will and way and not seeking our own ... because we "reality-check" each other in numerous ways and if someone mixes their own personal agenda (vendetta, jealousy, striving, competitiveness, etc.) into the mix it can taint & spoil the effort the Spirit of God would do through us for one another.

[bevin]

Quote:

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especially when it comes to trying to figure out what things in my life have been trials from the Lord and what things have been attacks from Satan, and in that regard what things were both

---

Most of what happens to us is a direct consequence of living in a dangerous world with physical laws that are rarely broken.

God does not usually protect us from the consequences of our bad decisions, or from bad luck.

Satan is not the usual cause of those consequences or of the bad luck.

/Bevin

[Nicodema]

Don't worry Bevin -- I'm not the type to see a demon in every corner or every unfortunate event. That's not what I meant.

[Stan]

1 Corinthians 10:13

You have not so far been waylaid by any temptation that is not

common to all humanity. God is to be relied upon: He will not

let you be tempted above your capacity to resist. When He

allows you to be tempted He will always provide some way out of

it, so that you need not be overcome.

Wand

[Nicodema]

"Wand"???

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

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Nicodema said:

Quote:

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LifeHiscost said:

One of the tragic circumstances that a falling away from the truth often brings about is that we feel the necessity of being accepted by men, after we have repented of the past.

That is where satan employs his most successful attacks, getting us to believe we must please all men, insomuch that we are willing to retaliate

whenever another make themselves available to the enemy of souls

, to

cast aspersions upon our character and reputation.

---

I know you meant that response for Clio, but I think I will borrow it and ride on its coattails for a time, as it is like a word in due season to me. Thanks LHC!

---

Your most welcome, Nico. However you need not feel the need to borrow, as the conversation between both you and Clio elicited from me a desire to speak to each of you an answer that would lift your hearts above the cruelty that often emanates from the least expected places.

I'm constantly reminded of the fact that we are still in the land of the enemy, and only as we freely give access to the Holy Spirit to control our decisions to honor our Father, do we find the success that brings that peace that passes understanding.

[:"red"] "Now may our God and Father Himself and our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) guide our steps..." [/] 1 Thessalonians 3:11 AMP

[:"red"] "And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." [/] Philippians 4:7 KJV

[Nicodema]

Quote:

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LifeHiscost said:

I'm constantly reminded of the fact that we are still in the land of the enemy, and

only as we freely give access to the Holy Spirit to control our decisions to honor our Father, do we find the success that brings that peace that passes understanding.

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Yes, my own stubbornness is quite the shortcoming there, I know.