49% Leave the SDA Denomination

[Gregory Matthews]

See:

http://spectrummagazine.org/article/2016/10/10/lost-sheep-annual-council-diary-oct-10

 

[Gail]

In today's secular mindset, of what relevance is religion anyway?

[Gregory Matthews]

That is a question that is being asked by many of people today.

It should be noted that these people may distinguish between religion and spirituality.

Perhaps, we SDAs should pay more attention to the difference in meaning between these two words?

[Tom Wetmore]

That figure seems consistent with the long recognized statistic that 50% or less of members still listed on any given church's books attend that church regularly.  If memory serves me correctly, "regularly" has been generously defined as low as only either once or twice a month.  The question that should be focused on with serious intent is how inflated/reliable are our current membership numbers. Perhaps we should be somewhat more modest in our claims that we are a church with 19.5 million members worldwide.  Realistically, could it be as low as 9 million?   

The more disheartening reality is that because of this disturbing statistic, the number of former Adventists far outnumber those that we claim are members by our own statistics.  In NAD the estimates are that there are 4-10 times as many former Adventists.  If we could miraculously reclaimed all of those that have left us, NAD membership would swell to 5-11 million members!  There is reason to believe that the reality may not be substantially different worldwide.

[Gregory Matthews]

Sometimes we drive people out and/or do not welcome them in.

I will be preaching tomorrow  on this subject in a congregation that is quite conservative.  We shall see how it is received.

 

[JoeMo]

2 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

It should be noted that these people may distinguish between religion and spirituality.

Perhaps, we SDAs should pay more attention to the difference in meaning between these two words?

Good words, Gregory.  One of my favorite quotes is something like "When the Holy Spirit leaves the church, they have nothing left but religion."  There is a big difference between having a relationship with God and His Son and having a relationship with a denomination.  I would have no problem leaving the SDA Church except for 1 thing - I agree with the spirit and veracity of their underlying premises.  I may take issue with some of their fundamentals; but for the most part I like the culture, diversity, and depth of scriptural knowledge.  I appreciate the fact that (on CA at least) most posters can debate without becoming (overly) disagreeable.

It is sad that almost 50% (by my experience more than 50%) of new converts leave the church.  The main reason I hear for people leaving boils down to be that the church didn't turn out to be what they initially thought it would be like.  It is only my opinion; but that statistic might be much lower if we focused our evangelism on bringing people to Christ rather than to the SDA church.  I believe that it was Gregory who pointed out that in most places, the "default" process is to baptize someone; and then immediately vote them into church membership.  Converts should have a free choice of a church which suits them just like they have a free choice to become a believer.  That being said, given the growing diversity among SDAs, people (in big cities at least) should be able to find an SDA congregation that suits them.  Just where I live, the cultures at various SDA Churches run the gamut from being traditional conservative "hell-fire and brimstone" churches to bordering on charismatic - from people who focus solely on EGW to those who focus totally on the Bible.

[debbym]

I have thought that the word religion used to refer to one's faith.  Now it seems religion refers to the brand of faith.  You didn't take on a person's religion because it was what was in their their heart.  this was sacred domain.

Now religion seems to be defined as what is in your head, and spirituality is what is in your heart.  There seems to be less sense of the sacred ground of a person's conscience and inner sanctum where only God and angels would tread.  

This is how there is spiritual abuse.  I think spiritual abuse is as common as any other kind of abuse, because if you do not recognize spiritual boundaries you can most likely be blind to many other kinds of boundaries.

Only Jesus had every boundary in place within himself, in His relationship to His heavenly Father, and in his relationship to all people, and all His creation.  And as Jesus comes into our hearts he brings those options to us, that we would not otherwise see.

[Gregory Matthews]

Today, "religion" is often defined in terms of an organized system that has rules, form, substance and ritual.   E.G.  Seventh-day Adventism is a religion.

In contrast, "spirituality" is often defined in terms of an individual's personal search for meaning in life.  E.G.  A personal search for reason in human existence may be an aspect of spirituality.

 

[debbym]

I see religion as being static, a set of information proscribed by a church or an institution, comprised of creed or beliefs, or doctrines.  I see spirituality as relational, something dynamic alive and growing.  Meaning may also readily become cataloged in that static stack of what is religion as soon as it is determined and added to the fixed and compiled.

Raison d'tre  seems to be something so easily springing from the ego and satisfying the ego... what is my importance.   It seems to me that spirituality is about experiencing being moved by higher impulses, being engaged in a relational dynamic greater that one's self .

But in my experience to reason with God is something that occurs through moments and brings responses of hope and comfort, assurance, cleansing, and humility.

what amazing loving, understanding, kind, restoring, and healing God.

[Gregory Matthews]

Religion is typically defined by scholars who study it on a basis that  is much broader than  mere denominationalism.  From this perspective there are probably about 9 - 13 world-wide religions.  Yes there are religions that are not world-wide and there is not total agreement as tot he exact number.

E.G. Christianity is considered to be one of the world religions.  In this perspective, Protestants constitute one branch of the Christian religion and Catholics constitute another branch.  Seventh-day Adventists would then be a sect within the Protestant branch of the Christian religion.

[debbym]

 

Yes, people are leaving the community within the church.  I found often that members who leave the church do not stop believing in the Sabbath and the Bible in general.  They just do not have any friendship, or a church family bond.  Their prayer life faded before leaving, they do not have inspiration and strength to practice their faith, they find they are not being witnesses anymore.  When you do not have a church family to bring your friends to... you lose the structure of witnessing and bringing others to Christ and to baptism in the church. Those no longer attending become the forgotten child in the family.

There is a wonderful glow in the heart of the newly baptized, a warmth and new life... the honey moon period.  Too often when that fades there is not enough support to keep growing faith.

Then there is various causes of alienation, the wounding attitudes by the staunch members, the power struggles in committees, the fear and controlling in the church where members are holding to church without a loving connection to Jesus. Then there is mental illness, like depression, health issues that cause one to disappear from church attendance, abuse in the families of members, and the member never comes back.  Some come into the  throes of being an adolescent or young adult and not finding their needs met. Then there is divorce,  families who cannot come to the same church, and family fights keeping people from being in church together, and addictions that weigh people down, and the business that drops prayer and bible study out of the life... and sports obsessions, politics, and the entertainment industry, gaming, internet and media preoccupation, and porn.

this is just a small slice of factors that lead to lost members i am certain.

what is the answer to all of these?

The power of God in the lives of the members providing every need, wisdom, strength, worship, praise to God, joy, Hope, Faith, and Love.

[Gregory Matthews]

I do not think that she was saying that the prayer life of everyone faded.

I will even say that for some, they may have to leave the SDA Church in order to find Christ.  But, if true, it would not be true for everyone.

Individual congregations have personalities.  It may be that one person may not be able to spiritually grow in an individual congregation.

Yes, some individuals have been spiritually abused by an individual congregation.  I can cite examples of such.

 

[debbym]

11 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

You talk about "their prayer life fading just before leaving" as if you somehow know such a thing for sure. I can name a head elder whom I made not one but three separate appointments with to pray with me; and the dude actually FORGOT all three times. After the third time I had had enough...and I still pray. Putting us into some kind of religious box that makes it our fault just denies reality.

Wanderer, i stopped attending and tried to come back many times... it was a many years long struggle.  Each case is individual... i was just discussing the shapes of many circumstances... i have observed personally.  When i found a congregation that had at the center of their mission radical acceptance, and flexible  structure in service... was not a conservative congregation set up and maintained to preserve traditions of the church... and exclusive, i found a place that was not only able to accept me as i was but was joyful and pleased to just do this.   I found a place where Jesus was in action in a wonderful broad way. And this church is a group of praying Christian's,  doing everything and being all they are with much prayer...  what a find.  

[debbym]

When i was struggling to come to church, i called the pastors wife, who was a conference paid bible worker teamed up with her pastor husband.  I asked her to pray for me and please pray with me once a week.  she said yes she would and hung up... no prayer.  i was in deep darkness and just hoping for some support.

she never called back over a week later I called her again and said, you never called to pray with me, and she said she would and she was sorry and she hung up again.

after waiting again for over a week, i called her again, and said you never called and prayed with me, and you hung up without praying for me.  She was very sweet saying we pray for you, and i said, i am sorry but i get the idea that you feel if you pray with me you are wasting your time.  She got tense and said with this emphasis WELL! you ARE mentally ill.  i was not suffering anything any medication could help, i was suffering from a break down from emotional pain... and i replied,  what if i am not mentally ill but just very injured.  She hung up and i felt the door shut and the darkness settle around me, i lost the hope i had in my church.  I had been an organizer of women's ministries, i had served as an adult Sabbath school teacher, i felt awful.

I would have become bitter and angry if not for a neighbor I had just a couple years before.  She had had her own break down, and her adventist church failed her.  When i,  her unknowing adventist neighbor,  went to visit her to connect with her, she laughed in scorn and sarcasm,  and offered to read me her hate poems she wrote for the adventist church.  I was overwhelmed and didn't know what to say.  I was out of my comfort zone and completely unprepared.  this filled my mind and i realized this bible worker was out of her comfort zone and unprepared to deal with someone in deep pain.  So, by divine grace,  i forgave this Pastor's wife, and i knew my previous failure had prepared me to be protected and saved from worse suffering from this failure of this pastor's wife. It was over 10 years later before i would have the strength to be in church again every week.

I have often wanted to speak with her again and fill her in on my journey.  I have wondered if the Lord had taken her over any paths that helped her be more prepared to relate in such circumstances.  May we all grow and learn.

[debbym]

21 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Sorry. I SHOULD have clarified. I. Did not mean anything to you personally but the phrase I lifted out of your post seemed like a good way to illustrate my experience. It happens a lot. And yes you have found a gold mine!

hey no problem Wanderer i was not offended in any way.

[Gail]

Thank you, Deb, for your testimony! Your experience is an example of where the rubber meets the road. We just don't know what a person has gone through, but for many a gesture of kindness or sympathy or encouragement can be life-changing and empowering.

Even the most steadfast members undergo stresses that are too big for them. It is NOT too much to seek a helping hand and prayer for God's presence at times. The battle they are fighting is a noble one. I am glad you were able to pull out of the mess you were dealt. Too often we church members chase them right out of the fold.

[Gail]

It is times like this that bring to mind that message of 1 Cor 13: You can have every spiritual advantage but each and every one is NOTHING without love. Love is what conquers. It endures, it thinks the best, it helps bear infirmities.

[Gregory Matthews]

Debbym:   Thank you for taking the risk to share what is a deeply personal and emotional experience.  Indeed it is a risk, for not all will understand.

I can only say:   In our humanity, not everyone can    work with everyone.  That does not mean that the fault lies with the person seeking help.  I can not work with everyone.  There are people whom I need to refer.  In doing so, that person should not be considered to be at fault.

As a matter of fact, no one may be at fault.  It simply is our humanity.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

I think that it went well.

It is a sermon that I regularly preach and it typically does go well.

 

 

[debbym]

13 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Debbym:   Thank you for taking the risk to share what is a deeply personal and emotional experience.  Indeed it is a risk, for not all will understand.

I can only say:   In our humanity, not everyone can    work with everyone.  That does not mean that the fault lies with the person seeking help.  I can not work with everyone.  There are people whom I need to refer.  In doing so, that person should not be considered to be at fault.

As a matter of fact, no one may be at fault.  It simply is our humanity.

 

i don't understand the risk you describe.  i am free if anyone or no one will understand what i have shared.  We live or die to the Lord not to the church or to one another.  God as a deep personal involvement in each of our lives.  As much as we want church to provide our needs, we may inadvertently have occasion to learn that church has limitations, that church is not God.  God works through Church and on that day the church is filled with the Holy Spirit without measure, the church may rise to new heights in witnessing and ministering.  i think this will be a brief period of time near the end of time, when the church is fully matured in Christ.  I suspect even then  it will be Spirit filled individuals in the church not the collective church of every listed member.

I do know that when we stand before the Lord and meet our destiny we will not say i did not get to heaven because it was too hard to because of the failure of the church.  Whatever form losses take in our lives our eternal destiny is not controlled by variations of human circumstances. The Lord has not left such eternal matters to the whim of circumstance and human success or failure.

But our relationship to church life in this world can be deeply impacted by the functionality of the church to serve the Lord and His interests or not.  The Church may be feeble and weak and erring, but God can work mightily though it to shine the Light of  His glorious love and plan to deliver every soul from the grip of sin.  Because the power of the church is the power of God.  A whole congregation may not have much light and may fail to shine much light, still every person has the possibility to live eternally or die eternally based on what they do with the light they receive however great or small that light has shone on them.  And "Jesus is the light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world".

[Gregory Matthews]

When people reveal very personal information, they may take a major risk and open themselves up to major criticism.  E.G.  When one states that they once considered leaving the SDA Church, they open themselves up to criticism for ever thinking such.  Another example might be one who acknowledged once thinking of suicide.

If you do not consider that you took any risk, I say congratulations. 

 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

If there is no risk when revealing a true, very personal experience, then it has less impact on those with whom it might resonate and help.

Most people have worries, fears, and things that have happened to them that they would like to share, but are afraid that maybe:

1.  no one will listen

2.  no one will care

3.  nobody else will understand

Those are very real and understandable concerns.  If one doesn't care what others think about a deeply personal experience, then why bother to share it at all?  The element of "risk" gives the listener (or reader) a way to connect on a deeper level with the person who is sharing.

Sharing an extremely personal story isn't the same as sharing a recipe for, say, making ice cubes.

[Gail]

Have you got that recipe?  (just kidding   )

[Outta Here]

Quote

 

However, if members are contacted after leaving, they are more likely to return. 

 Ng said prevention is cure. Prevention is nurture. He had seven points to make on nurture, saying that it is part of discipleship, part of evangelism, and it should become part of church culture. It should be intentional, is best handled by small group ministries, and requires a team, a collaborative approach.

What could the audience recommend? There were many suggestions: bringing together a room full of young people and listening to them and making the family the center of the church. 

 

 

 

In my opinion (and who am I, really, to have an opinion on this matter), making the family the center of the church is the KEY element to keeping members, bringing in new members and reeling in those fish who got away. I have never been a fan of division in our churches. Division by age, gender, race and status does nothing to promote the cause of togetherness. When the young people are separated from their families at a critical time in their adolescence (boarding schools), they are quick to learn that families are not a crucial element to living a Christ-filled life. Their peers become their advisors; their deans and RA's become their role models. Once they graduate from their high schools and colleges, the bond they once had with their families (and home churches) have been severely frayed, if not entirely severed. There is a great rift in the church--a rift that is letting the youth fall out and no one even notices because they're not "there" to notice.

[Geoarrge]

I feel very out of place when I do attend my local church, where the congregation is almost entirely college students, professors, and retirees.