Is salvation this simple?

[Samie]

On 03/12/2016 at 9:08 PM, Gerry Cabalo said:

Samie, if you want to discuss again the nature of man, I would be glad to respond in another thread.

Just in case you missed that thread.

[8thdaypriest]

On 11/29/2016 at 3:01 PM, Gerry Cabalo said:

Greg, Gail, then let's simplify it.  What must I do to inherit eternal life?

Believe. 

Believe in Jesus (which includes believing that He can transform you, into one who is fit for Heaven).  True belief will result in changed behavior, because Jesus will come into you, to transform you.

[8thdaypriest]

On 11/29/2016 at 9:59 AM, Gregory Matthews said:

Gerry, the problem with what you cited is that it makes salvation to complex. 1) Salvation was achieved on the Cross. See Romans 5:12-19. Here we are told that just as the sin of one person (Adam) brought sin to all of humanity, so also did the work of Christ on the Cross bring the gift of salvation to all. Gerry, the salvation of the human race has already been accomplished. 2) Now that salvation has been accomplished each human faces a choice. The is the conflict that began in heaven many years ago when Satan challenged God and said: Your creation would chose me, if they were free to chose between you and I. 3) Each person Earth must make a decision as to whether to spend eternity with God or to join Satan in his life and future. For those who chose not to spend eternity with God, God will grant them their desired choice along with its consequences.

Gregory, you don't really mean each and every person.  You mean each and every mature person, with the mental capacity (and supplied with enough information) to choose. 

Your formula exempts a large portion of mankind. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Rachel:  As is usual for you, you have raised a valid point that should be considered.  Clearly my comments do apply to people with the cognition needed to make a choice.

Such short statements as I made can not cover every aspect of what I believe on the subject.   I believe that when God considers the boundaries of the personal choices that each person makes, God considers the limits of the information that the Holy Spirit had brought to the mind of the person.  As I understand your position, you believe that people may not in this life have all of the information that they need.  Therefore, as I understand you, there will be a future time in which their incomplete information will be supplemented with additional information that will help them to make a choice.  If I am correct, we do differ on that point.

Yes, what you called my formula does not address some of the people who have lived on this planet.  This would include children who have not reached a specific level of cognition and others.  while it is true that my formula does not address them, I do not exclude them from salvation.  I simply do not provide an answer to that aspect of the issue.

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

3 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Rachel:  As is usual for you, you have raised a valid point that should be considered.  Clearly my comments do apply to people with the cognition needed to make a choice.

Such short statements as I made can not cover every aspect of what I believe on the subject.   I believe that when God considers the boundaries of the personal choices that each person makes, God considers the limits of the information that the Holy Spirit had brought to the mind of the person.  As I understand your position, you believe that people may not in this life have all of the information that they need.  Therefore, as I understand you, there will be a future time in which their incomplete information will be supplemented with additional information that will help them to make a choice.  If I am correct, we do differ on that point.

Yes, what you called my formula does not address some of the people who have lived on this planet.  This would include childred who have not reached a specific level of cognition and others.  while it is true that my formula does not address them, I do not exclude them from salvation.  I simply do not provide an answer to that aspect of the issue.

 

My view Gregory, concerns the JUSTICE of God. 

I think it NOT RIGHT or JUST that God would require something of half the people who have ever lived, but not require it of the rest.   In my view, God MUST require the same things of ALL MANKIND.  Every person must believe in order to be "saved".  They must CHOOSE whom they will BELIEVE and serve. 

Because salvation is NOT ABOUT whether you have sinned, or how many times you have sinned.  God can erase that.  It's NOT ABOUT our carnal nature.  God can transform that. 

Salvation is ABOUT your CHOICE - to believe God and serve Him, or to resist His spirit (and His son). 

The ONLY way to give persons who died in ignorance, and children who died in immaturity, the opportunity to CHOOSE - to fulfill God's requirement for salvation - is to resurrect them and then teach them.  The 8th millennium provides this time.  

What a case the relatives of lost persons could make, for God's injustice - if He left their relatives dead forever (like animals), simply because they died without ever hearing of Yahweh or the Gospel.

And how can God save young children of saints,  and leave children of criminals and terrorists unsaved, SIMPLY BECAUSE they died when too young to CHOOSE.  We have no idea what their choice might be, if they had lived into adulthood.  

To transport a child into Heaven, is to BYPASS his FREE WILL.  That child never made his CHOICE.  God will have to manipulate the mind of that child (without his consent) to guarantee the child's continued harmony with the will of God.  THAT is NOT God's way! 

[Gregory Matthews]

[I really like the response that Rachel made to me, below.  I want to respond to it.  So, I intend to place  my responses in brackets [  ] as I have done here and then to initial it at the end, as I am doing now--GM.]

1)  My view Gregory, concerns the JUSTICE of God. 

      [Rachel is correct here.  There is a fundamental issue as to the justice of God, and in addition how God can remove sin at the same time allow people who have sinned to live with Him  in eternity--GM.]

2)  I think it NOT RIGHT or JUST that God would require something of half the people who have ever lived, but not require it of the rest.   In my view, God MUST require the same things of ALL MANKIND.  Every person must believe in order to be "saved".  They must CHOOSE whom they will BELIEVE and serve. 

    [I agree with Rachel in regard to God needing to have the same standard for all.  The question, as I see it is:  What is a standard that can be fairly applied to all.  I would say that the level of belief that one must have is conditioned upon the level of knowledge that he Holy Spirit has given to each individual.  This is also the level upon which they must chose.  Some may have more knowledge than do others.  But all of humanity will have a very limited knowledge due to their humanity and that level of knowledge and their response to it with a consequent choice will be the standard by which they will be admitted to an eternity with God--GM.]

3)  Because salvation is NOT ABOUT whether you have sinned, or how many times you have sinned.  God can erase that.  It's NOT ABOUT our carnal nature.  God can transform that. 

[Rachel:  I agree--GM.]

4)  Salvation is ABOUT your CHOICE - to believe God and serve Him, or to resist His spirit (and His son). 

[Rachel, I believe that our choice is the issue.  While I would state it differently, I do not want to get into mere semantics, even if such are important--
GM.]

5)  The ONLY way to give persons who died in ignorance, and children who died in immaturity, the opportunity to CHOOSE - to fulfill God's requirement for salvation - is to resurrect them and then teach them.  The 8th millennium provides this time.  

[This is where we disagree, the most--GM.]

6)  What a case the relatives of lost persons could make, for God's injustice - if He left their relatives dead forever (like animals), simply because they died without ever hearing of Yahweh or the Gospel.

[On the surface, you may have a valid point.  I would say that people are judged on the basis of what the Holy Spirit has brought to their attention.  I would say that neither you nor I can be certain as to what the HS has been able do with people that seem unreachable to us.  Then, in the end, I would say that there are some aspects/questions for which I do not have an answer and I simply have to trust God.  But, I do not believe that your teachings in regard to the 8th millennium provide a valid answer--GM.]

7)  And how can God save young children of saints,  and leave children of criminals and terrorists unsaved, SIMPLY BECAUSE they died when too young to CHOOSE.  We have no idea what their choice might be, if they had lived into adulthood.  

[I do not believe that is what God will do.  Where did you get that idea, although I think that I know.     Regardless, I do not believe it.  In any case, God does, I will suggest know what their choice would be.  However, I do not suggest that what I have said is a complete answer.  So, this may be part of that which we will simply have to trust to God--GM.]

8)  To transport a child into Heaven, is to BYPASS his FREE WILL.  That child never made his CHOICE.  God will have to manipulate the mind of that child (without his consent) to guarantee the child's continued harmony with the will of God.  THAT is NOT God's way! 

[I do not believe that such is a bypass of free will and I do not believe that such is manipulation.  Again I will suggest that God does know what the choice would be.  Also, as I have said, each judged within the context of what the HS has been able to accomplish in working for them--GM.]

[Gregory Matthews]

It does not cut it if you believe that there is a standard of information that all must reach.  Rachel has an answer to this.

My answer is that standard is relative to what the Holy Spirit has accomplished in the individual.

[LifeHiscost]

On 11/29/2016 at 1:01 PM, Gerry Cabalo said:

Greg, Gail, then let's simplify it.  What must I do to inherit eternal life?

…8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.... 1 John 1:9

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves!          

[Gregory Matthews]

The Wanderer has asked that I give an example of what I mean by a standard that is relative to what the Holy Spirit has accomplished in one's life:

Example # 1:

a)  X is a 11 year old child living in the slums of NYC.  X is the child of a Father who fences stolen goods and   is being trained to fill a part  this system of earning income.  X has been given no spiritual training, other than to think of God as powerless and a fable just like Santa Claus.  One day X sees an advertisement for a program at a near-by church that interests him due to the fact that it promises him some free pizza.  So, X attends and is impressed by what he is told at the program.  X has never seen a Bible.  X has never prayed.  But, deep in his heart, X wants to know more about this God.  X is willing to learn.

'b)  Y is an 11 year old child living in the suburbs of Southern California.  Y is the child of a church leader who is a professor at a near-by seminary, who both develops materials to teach Christian concepts to  pre-teen children and teaches students how to minister to pre-teen children.  Y understands 28 concepts of Christian belief and can explain them in terms that children her age can understand.   Y has read the Bible through twice.  She begins each day with prayer and an invitation for Christ to lead her that day.  Y has recently been impressed that she has more to learn about God and the life that lies ahead of her in eternity.  Y is willing to learn.

I believe that we can agree that X and Y are not at the same level of spiritual understanding.  We can likely agree that Y is greatly advantaged over X.  The Bible teaches us that the Holy Spirit is responsible for one's spiritual education and conviction of a need to change.  While the two are at very different  levels of understanding of God and eternity, they both stand before God on the same level.  The HS is leading both.  At every point  in time they are making choices  at to what they want to do about eternity and God accepts their choice in relation to what the HS has taught them.  The standard is relative.

Example # 2:

a) A is a developmentally disabled 35 year old adult.  A can only live independently with assistance.  A has never learned to read.  A loves to attend church services each week because people there are kind to him.  They tell him of a God who loves him.  They tell him that God values him.  A wants to spend eternity with such a God.

'B) is a high-functioning 35 year old adult.  She holds a PhD. in Biblical languages.  She is the senior pastor of a 10,000 member of a mega-congregation.  But, deep in her heart she has questions about God.  Those are honest questions.  But, she is uncertain as to why anyone would want to spend eternity with the God that she pictures in her mind.

Both A and B are honest in their understandings of God and eternity.  But, they are at different places in their spiritual life.  But, the HS is in charge of the spiritual development of both.  Both are in the process of making choices as to whether or not they want to spend eternity with God.  God is accepting their choices in relation to what the HS has taught them.   

[debbym]

Jesus is the light that lights every man that comes into the world.

Education, culture, wealth, resources, ability, quality of life, or lack of these things doesn't comprise whether or not we have Christ in our heart. These are blessings, but each one can also easily become a curse, when it is made everything...  Some are more fortunate some less, but all are equally loved.  One could be so unhappy to be born disadvantaged, or one could be so happy to be born advantaged, that there is no place for Christ and His love in the heart.

Happiness does not consist of the abundance of things one possesses, and conversely unhappiness does not consist of the abundance of things one has lost, or never had.

When The Holy Spirit brings Christ us He offers freedom, freedom to choose, and how we choose either increases our freedom or decreases our freedom.

A profoundly disadvantaged person, say a man serving life in imprisonment for Crimes he was driven to by a family that did nothing but break him, and drive him despair, can walk in the pure creative free stream of eternity within those walls, and find every step down those halls a step of joy and light and love, and be radiant with the light of heaven. (I known a horrible run on sentence)

A profoundly advantaged, refined educated gentleman, in position of  spiritual leadership, and heir of great wealth could be chained to porn, and enslaved by passions.  He could find each step agonizing and burdened as he approaches the closet to get the gun to end his life in despair when his degradation becomes exposed.

God does not see as man sees.   We can easily find ourselves saying, "Oh Lord I thank you that i am not like that man".  Which man would it be.  God asks us simple things, like, "do not eat of that tree".  We still cannot do that which is good without the present working of God in our heart.  Eve's sin was not so much eating the apple, but the putting away from her heart the word of God which left her without any power and strength to maintain her connection and strength to do His will. The eating was the evidence of her distrust, her letting go of Faith, the proof of the pudding.

God asks us to rejoice in the Lord always and again He says Rejoice!  But we cannot do that in our own strength, we much have   present within us the Word of God what is our wisdom, our inspiration, our strength, and everything that  that makes it possible for us to walk in His will, His glorious will for us.

Yes it is simple, but dependence on God is the requirement.   As sinners to get to that we have to renounce our selfish, wayward, independent of God will at every turn.  The enemy gloried in his freedom of will to be independent from God, but it lead irrevocably to death.  It is ours to glory in the freedom of dependence on God, and every new horizon that is ours to explore and reach for, for eternity

[Samie]

KJV Matthew 5:48   Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

For me, perfection is getting all the items correct, as in 100/100, 25/25 or 5/5.  In spiritual life, the Holy Spirit teaches what God determines a person needed to know and understand. If A learned 100 truths, he is accountable with his 100. If B has learned 5 truths, he is accountable with his 5.  If A lived his life in accordance with 99 of his 100, while B lived his life in accordance with all of his 5, then A is NOT perfect while B is. A cannot resort to claiming his 99 is far greater than B's 5 and therefore he is better off than B. No sir.  The spiritual norm is perfection, and 99/100 is not perfect while 5/5 is. 

And In Him Who is our Strength, we have His Power for perfection being part of His body. In fact, God has already made us perfect in His sight (Heb 10:10, 14). It is not because of INABILITY that one is not perfect, it is because of REFUSAL.

KJV Luke 12:48  . . . For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

[Gregory Matthews]

I appreciate those who have joined this discussion. They have contributed where what I said needed additional comment. The had said some things better than I have said. All in all, they have demonstrated that the community of faith can be more effective than one acting alone.

[Gregory Matthews]

Let me tell you a story, brief and leaving out some of the interesting facts: Ralph, not his name, was a developmentally disabled person. As part of his rehabilitative services arrangements were made for him to do some volunteer work at the hospital where I later became employed. Ralph devoted his full efforts to contributing as much as he could to the mission of the hospital. Those efforts were recognized and as a result Ralph was offered employment in housekeeping. NOTE: The hospital where I worked had a policy that volunteers are not offered employment. In addition, as a Federal hospital, employment was only offered to people who typically applied in a competitive process. For Ralph to be hired as he was hired was a major exception to policy. To be brief, and to skip over the details, at the time that I was employed in that hospital, Ralph's primary duties, in part, were to hang around with the chaplains. Yes, he did other stuff also. As I came to know Ralph, within the limits of his abilities, I treated Ralph the same way that I treated other people. This included joking with him. It was not uncommon for me to tell Ralph, the first time that I saw him in the morning, that I had received a telephone call from the President, who had enquired about Ralph and asked me to keep watch on him so that the did nor depart from the straight and the narrow. Ralph enjoyed this type of relationship and became quite close to me. One Friday evening, I am sitting at home when the hospital telephone operator calls me. I am told that Ralph wants to talk to me. The operator has refused to give him my home number, but Ralph simply calls back and requests to talk tome and does it again and again. So, finally the operator calls me and asks if I will get Ralph off of his back and talk to him. I agree. This is Friday evening. Sunday I am responsible for a major program honoring the veterans who have died. This is a big thing. We were expecting some 200 family members. Ralph is on the phone. He has been poking around in the hospital to see what arrangements have been made for that Sunday program. He has determined that the arrangements for the liquid refreshments have fallen through and none will be provided on Sunday. He wants to tell me a bout that. Ralph is correct. Because he has notified me, I am able to rectify the situation and the Sunday program goes as planed. Ralph saved my skin and professional reputation and saw to it that our memorial service went off as planned. Folks, developmentally handicapped people can contribute and should be valued.

[Gregory Matthews]

Samie, there is a lot to be positively said about your post on perfection.  There is a sense that in this life, no human will ever reach perfection in an absolute sense and no human will in this life understand God in full totality.

But, God does not charge us with sin when we  have not been convicted of a sin and are not in rebellion against God on that point.  In that sense, god counts us as perfect.

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

17 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

It does not cut it if you believe that there is a standard of information that all must reach.  Rachel has an answer to this.

My answer is that standard is relative to what the Holy Spirit has accomplished in the individual.

I remember a fellow who said that God (the Holy Spirit) "can have a relationship with a four-celled embryo".  Sorry - I can't buy that. 

[8thdaypriest]

4 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Let me tell you a story, brief and leaving out some of the interesting facts: Ralph, not his name, was a developmentally disabled person. As part of his rehabilitative services arrangements were made for him to do some volunteer work at the hospital where I later became employed. Ralph devoted his full efforts to contributing as much as he could to the mission of the hospital. Those efforts were recognized and as a result Ralph was offered employment in housekeeping. NOTE: The hospital where I worked had a policy that volunteers are not offered employment. In addition, as a Federal hospital, employment was only offered to people who typically applied in a competitive process. For Ralph to be hired as he was hired was a major exception to policy. To be brief, and to skip over the details, at the time that I was employed in that hospital, Ralph's primary duties, in part, were to hang around with the chaplains. Yes, he did other stuff also. As I came to know Ralph, within the limits of his abilities, I treated Ralph the same way that I treated other people. This included joking with him. It was not uncommon for me to tell Ralph, the first time that I saw him in the morning, that I had received a telephone call from the President, who had enquired about Ralph and asked me to keep watch on him so that the did nor depart from the straight and the narrow. Ralph enjoyed this type of relationship and became quite close to me. One Friday evening, I am sitting at home when the hospital telephone operator calls me. I am told that Ralph wants to talk to me. The operator has refused to give him my home number, but Ralph simply calls back and requests to talk tome and does it again and again. So, finally the operator calls me and asks if I will get Ralph off of his back and talk to him. I agree. This is Friday evening. Sunday I am responsible for a major program honoring the veterans who have died. This is a big thing. We were expecting some 200 family members. Ralph is on the phone. He has been poking around in the hospital to see what arrangements have been made for that Sunday program. He has determined that the arrangements for the liquid refreshments have fallen through and none will be provided on Sunday. He wants to tell me a bout that. Ralph is correct. Because he has notified me, I am able to rectify the situation and the Sunday program goes as planed. Ralph saved my skin and professional reputation and saw to it that our memorial service went off as planned. Folks, developmentally handicapped people can contribute and should be valued.

Of course they can contribute.  One of our local grocery stores uses handicapped persons to bag and carry out groceries.  I always thank the one helping me. 

[8thdaypriest]

17 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

It does not cut it if you believe that there is a standard of information that all must reach.  Rachel has an answer to this.

My answer is that standard is relative to what the Holy Spirit has accomplished in the individual.

I used to believe as you do Gregory.  I used to believe that one was "saved" based upon his/her "response" to the Spirit (rather than their CHOICE to believe in and serve God).  That belief just left too many unsettled questions.  An infant can "respond" (maybe - like responding to his mother's touch) but an infant CANNOT CHOOSE. 

The REASON why SDAs do not believe that "the rest of the dead" could possibly be those who lived and died in ignorance, is BECAUSE Mrs White wrote that "the rest of the dead" will be all of the wicked from this age, clear back to Cain who killed Able.  It is BECAUSE of their belief in her prophetic gift, that they cannot consider the biblical evidence for another point of view. 

[Samie]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I used to believe as you do Gregory.  I used to believe that one was "saved" based upon his/her "response" to the Spirit (rather than their CHOICE to believe in and serve God).  That belief just left too many unsettled questions.  An infant can "respond" (maybe - like responding to his mother's touch) but an infant CANNOT CHOOSE.

Plain semantics, I guess. The infant's "response" is his choice: he chose to respond the way he did.

 

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The REASON why SDAs do not believe that "the rest of the dead" could possibly be those who lived and died in ignorance, is BECAUSE Mrs White wrote that "the rest of the dead" will be all of the wicked from this age, clear back to Cain who killed Able.  It is BECAUSE of their belief in her prophetic gift, that they cannot consider the biblical evidence for another point of view. 

Sorry, but on the other hand, what are considered by Rachel as Biblical evidence for her position points, IMHO, the other direction.  Christ has EMPHATICALLY declared and recorded at least twice in Scriptures, that when He comes again He will reward EVERY MAN according to what each has done (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12). So who doesn't get rewarded? What's the need for teaching those who the HS had already taught even though there are some who, like Rachel, don't believe the HS has taught them? 

God now COMMANDS all - this should include those who Rachel call the ignorant pagans - to repent (Acts 17:30), so who's not CAPABLE of repenting?  The fact that God commands ALL connotes that ALL had been taught. Will God command me anything He knows I am NOT capable of and then punish me if I can't?  And as Gregory had already explained, every one will be held accountable for what he has learned from the HS.

[phkrause]

I definitely agree with your post above Samie and the posts by Gregory on this point. Doug Batchelor in his series that I posted, called The Prophecy Code, deals with this point! Basically saying the same as you and Gregory have mentioned.

[Gregory Matthews]

Rachel said below:

There was a time when I had to have an answer to every question.  I have come to the place where I do not now have to have an answer to everything.  I am content to wait and simply trust God.

Quote

I used to believe as you do Gregory.  I used to believe that one was "saved" based upon his/her "

response" to the Spirit (rather than their CHOICE to believe in and serve God).  That belief just left too many unsettled questions.  An infant can "respond" (maybe - like responding to his mother's touch) but an infant CANNOT CHOOSE. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Rachel said below:

Without checking, I do not think that your reference to EGW is an exact quote.  But, you did not say that it was, I guess.  She probably did say something along the line of what you said.

However, in stating that EGW is the reason you probably give her more power than do probably the majority of SDAS.

The REASON why SDAs do not believe that "the rest of the dead" could possibly be those who lived and died in ignorance, is BECAUSE Mrs White wrote that "the rest of the dead" will be all of the wicked from this age, clear back to Cain who killed Able.  It is BECAUSE of their belief in her prophetic gift, that they cannot consider the biblical evidence for another point of view. 

[Samie]

I think salvation made simple comes in 3 words. Repent or Perish. Luke 13:3, 5.

 

[Green Cochoa]

6 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Without checking, I do not think that your reference to EGW is an exact quote.  But, you did not say that it was, I guess.  She probably did say something along the line of what you said.

It's always better to check and to ensure that one's beliefs are based on a clear "thus saith the LORD."  In this case, Mrs. White certainly does NOT say in so many words what Rachel has claimed.  However, I do believe that she teaches the concept alluded to.  It was, nonetheless, somewhat misleading for Rachel to state that "Mrs. White wrote that 'the rest of the dead' will be all of the wicked from this age, clear back to Cain who killed Able (sic)."  Mrs. White said no such thing.  There are just seven statements/paragraphs to be found on the CD ROM of her published writings using the phrase "rest of the dead."  Not one of them mentions either Cain or Abel.

[Gregory Matthews]

Green:

1) Welcome back.  I have not noticed you here for some time.  I was hoping that you had not left us for good.  While you and I often disagree,  we do agree at times.  You do  contribute to the discussions here in CA.

2)  As  I said about Rachel's  post, I was not arguing the point of what EGW taught.  But, as you said, I did not think that EGW mentioned Cain and Abel.  I felt that such was Rachel's addition.

3) As to the use of the EGW CD ROM.  There are two published editions of it. The 2007 edition is titled the Complete Published Edition.  The 2008 edition is titled the Research Edition.  It adds 25,000 pages of material to the 75,000 pages of the 2007 edition that is historical in nature. 

In addition, in 2016 the EGW Estate has released apps that are updated for Windows 8.1  Windows 10, and MAC.  New apps have been released that allow searches to be done for Android and IOS, as well as in multiple languages.   

One can check this out at:   http://whiteestate.org/

On an interesting side comment, on the above page, scroll down on the page, is a link to a 27 page document that addresses what EGW actually wrote about the Trinity, to include in come cases, photographic reproductions of the actual MSS.  While I have not read it in detail, today,  this document may be of interest to those interested in the questions that Rachel has raised.
 

[8thdaypriest]

9 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

During my nursing career, I learned how that infants can and indeed do choose. Take "separation anxiety," for one example. Try taking an infant from the arms of the mother, and putting it into the arms of some guy standing nearby. The crying and screaming will tell you the rest.

I was a nurse too, for 45 years,and I worked in OB frequently.  Human newborns react from INSTINCT.  They suck from INSTINCT.  They grasp from INSTINCT.  They throw their arms out, when they sense falling.  They BOND because of smell.  And they will BOND with the woman who nurses them, or nurtures them - regardless if that woman gave birth to them.  THAT part is INSTINCT - not choice.  Their intellectual bond with their mother develops as their intelligence develops.  Kids with autism never bond with their mothers.

lol As Greg said, "the Holy Spirit deals with us, and where we are at." This would happen with infants, just not in the same way as it would  "big people." We cannot sit on our doctrinal high horse and tell God how to deal with infants, or mentally handicapped, or anything else that we really dont have answers to. All I know is that whats not possible with us is possible with God.

REALLY Wanderer:  You think I am sitting on my "high horse".   I am NOT telling God how to deal with anyone.  I am sharing with all of you on this forum, what I believe God has revealed in His word, concerning how He will deal justly with every human being.  And concerning THAT subject, my opinion is just as good as yours.

Nothing in scripture mandates that we have all the answers to some questions like this. There is a time to "answer," and a time to be silent.:)

So you think all humanity should refrain from positing answers to the question, because in YOUR OPINION, the answer is not knowable.  

Rachel's responses are in RED.