Islamic & Jewish Adventists

[Gregory Matthews]

If you take time to think about it, the following will challenge you:

http://atoday.org/adventist-jews-and-muslims/

NOTE:  This question has been raised before, but it seems to me, with little thought being given to it.

Rachel, do you have any comment on this?

[JoeMo]

Hi Gregory,

I found the article very interesting.  I agree with parts of it; and disagree with others. While Mr. Ferguson points out the areas that Islamic and Christian holy books have in common, he fails to point out the areas where they disagree (strongly). I don't want to turn this into a debate, so I won't go into detail.  However, in general:

1. Allah is NOT Yahweh; he is quite the opposite.

2. Isa al-Masih is not the same "Jesus" as is the Son of Yahweh. Isa al-Masih is a radical Islamic terrorist who executed everyone who does not accept al Madhi or Islam.

3. Fundamental Islamic eschatology from the hadiths parallels Biblical eschatology in many ways, except roles are reversed.  Specifically, in Islamic eschatology, Jerusalem, all Jews, and all Christians are killed and sent to hell.  In Christian eschatology all who do not take part in the first resurrection are destroyed.  I'm gonna go with Rachel here and propose that all whoever lived will eventually (after the millennium?) get an opportunity to make an intelligent and informed choice between the Kingdom of God and the kingdom of satan.  How can we truly and intelligently use our free will to make a choice if we don't have the proper information?  I estimate that more than half of all who ever lived have never heard the name of Jesus, or have had their concept of Him twisted and maligned by organized religion (Christian and non-Christian).

All that being said, there is a great need for Christian work among Islam (and Judaism); and who better to bring the message to their hearts than believers from their own people groups? There are several missions to Islam (including some SDA missions, like Adventist Frontier Missions and GoTential) who work discretely with these people groups.  An increasing number of Muslims have dreams/visions of Jesus and are converted.  If these Muslims are as devoted to Christ as they formerly were to Allah, what a work they could do for the Kingdom!  There would be a revival among them that would make us western Christians jealous. It could also initiate a period of martyrdom (especially in the Middle East) that would rival the Holocaust; and it could include Muslim against Muslim.

I also believe that current and future Messianic Jews (ethnic AND spiritual) will make up the 144,000.

Your turn, Rachel!

[phkrause]

11 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

If you take time to think about it, the following will challenge you:

http://atoday.org/adventist-jews-and-muslims/

NOTE:  This question has been raised before, but it seems to me, with little thought being given to it.

Rachel, do you have any comment on this?

A great article, many points that he makes have been made by John McGhee, quite a few years ago. He taught much the same. When he and his wife lived with us in Massachusetts for about 3 years, he worked with Muslims. We also seem to forget, that the Christian roots are from Abraham, and so is Islam.

[8thdaypriest]

On 12/2/2016 at 9:25 AM, JoeMo said:

I also believe that current and future Messianic Jews (ethnic AND spiritual) will make up the 144,000.

Your turn, Rachel!

Can't agree with Joe on this one. 

One quote from the article you posted Gregory.

"The Qur’an itself doesn’t necessarily negate what seem to be cornerstone distinctions between Christianity and Islam, such as belief in the Bible, the Trinity, divinity of Jesus and the crucifixion. Thus, it is not the Qur’an that is often the biggest barrier to reaching Muslims with the gospel."

Seriously?? The Qur'an absolutely does NOT teach the Trinity doctrine, does NOT teach that Jesus was a divine being, and does NOT teach that Jesus died by crucifixion.  In fact it says that Jesus did NOT die.  He was simply taken to Heaven alive.  And Allah NEVER beget a "son".  Jesus was just a man.

What I see here is a good deal of ignorance - of what the Qur'an actually teaches. 

If you define "Adventist" as anyone looking forward to the coming of a Messiah figure, then SDAs, mainline Evangelicals, Jews, and Muslims would all be "Adventists".  Does that mean they would all fit comfortably with the SDA church?  NO!!

Jews regard anyone who believes that Yahweh had a "son" - as a NON-Jew.  They shun and deplore the entire Messianic Jewish movement.  Their mantra is that "God is ONE" - one divine being. 

Messianic Jews (and JoeMo) believe that Jews (those of Hebrew lineage) will rule the world with Christ.  When Christ returns in glory, suddenly all the Jews will "wake up" and recognize Him as Lord.  Then they will rule the nations along with Christ.   I do NOT share that view.   Hebrew Roots believers, on the other hand, regard believers of Gentile lineage, are "grafted in" to Israel.  The problem is - they don't also believe that those who refuse to believe, are "cut off" FROM Israel. 

I contribute to "The Jesus Film Ministry".  That ministry has produced a video of the life of Jesus, with the dialog in the movie taken entirely from the Gospel of Luke.  In this digital age, where people almost everywhere have cell phones, that movie can be put on a tiny chip, which will then play on any cell phone.  It can be passed along easily, without being noticed. The "Jesus Film" is penetrating into Muslim countries and communities.  Many Muslims are having visions, and coming to belief in Christ as God's son.

I have NEVER thought that a person must believe all the "right" doctrines, in order to be saved.  The beliefs essential to salvation are actually few in number.  1.  Believe on the LORD Jesus Christ.  A. Believe that He was/is God's "begotten son", and B. believe that He died so that we can be saved.  Other than these two beliefs, I would say that one must follow the command of Christ to "Love one another" (even to love and pray for your enemies).  All the other beliefs are trimmings and expansions that do make our experience with God fuller and better, but they are not essential to salvation. 

Once an individual Muslim or Jew comes to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ", he will be "saved", IF he then follows the commands of Christ - thus demonstrating that he believes.  One of Christ's commands was "go therefore and teach".  

I do not understand "salvation" as happening ONLY in the mind of the one who "believes".  I believe that one MUST outwardly demonstrate his belief.  He must SERVE Christ as LORD (Master), not simply "savior".   Does that mean he has to stand up and loudly proclaim himself "Christian" - and get himself executed?  No.  But it does mean that he will share his new faith with a few, to whom the Spirit of Christ leads him. 

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Rachel,  I have read the Quran and the explaination of it.  I agree with your comment related to the two (2) sentences that you quoted.

However, I believe that the two sentences are a poorly worded section that does not faithfully represent what the author was attempting to say.  I will suggest that one ought to take those two sentences within the context of a much larger explaination in which he  gave very specific examples where he believed the Quran is faithful to what we believe the Bible teaches.

The fact of the matter is that while it is very difficult to convert a person from Islam to Christianity, some of the most successful people who are working to do such, use the Quran to teach Muslims doctrines taught by the Bible and Christianity. 

I have read the literature of Arabic SDAs, who are fluent in Arabic, who use the Quran to teach fundamental Biblical truths of which most Muslims are not aware.

Further, the author makes a very important point when he mentions the Hadith.  Please do not confuse a teaching that actually comes from the Hadith with comming from the Quran.  Much of Islamic teaching today comes from the Hadith and not from the Quran. 

[JoeMo]

On ‎12‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 3:43 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

Messianic Jews (and JoeMo) believe that Jews (those of Hebrew lineage) will rule the world with Christ.

I believe there is a hierarchy in heaven, just like here on earth.  All who are saved will rule with Christ; but - looking at the scripture literally, the 144,000 hold a higher position than the uncountable masses in the Kingdom.

On ‎12‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 8:25 AM, JoeMo said:

I also believe that current and future Messianic Jews (ethnic AND spiritual) will make up the 144,000.

I did mis-speak when I wrote this - I don't even agree with it.  I should have said Messianic Israel ( both ethnic - the natural branches - and spiritual - those who have been grafted in - will make up the 144,000.  But both types of people (ethnic and spiritual Israel) will also make up the rest of the Kingdom's priests and kings as well.  The 144,00 will be in positions of higher authority than the rest of the saved.  At  least that's what I currently think.

[8thdaypriest]

Gregory,

It is just good psychology, when attempting to bring anyone (for any reason) over to your point of view, to BEGIN by siting those things you have in common.  I'm not knocking the guy for his attempt to do that.  I just think he goes too far. 

The Isa of Islam IS NOT the Yeshua of Messianic Judaism - the Jesus of Christianity.  Isa is an enforcer, who Muslims expect will return to earth, ahead of the Mahdi.  Isa will enforce Islamic/Sharia law.  He will kill everyone who refuses to submit/convert to Islam. 

Essentially - the Koran says that Ishmael was the "chosen seed" of Abraham - NOT Isaac.  Abraham took Ishmael up the mountain as a sacrifice to Allah - NOT Isaac.  Every place where the OT or NT says that Israel or the Jews are the "chosen people", Mohamed taught that such texts had been changed or corrupted BY the Jews.  It's the perfect deception.  Jesus could NOT be THE  "chosen seed", or because he was not descended from Ishmael.  Islam says the Jews corrupted the text (and stole what was rightfully theirs), and the Jews says that Mohamed corrupted the text.  And who can prove which one is right.  It gives the world an excuse to reject them BOTH.  The perfect deception. 

Mohamed was visited by the Evil One.  The Evil One himself gave Mohamed visions and dreams.  Satan was the founder of Islam.  And "what fellowship has light with darkness" ? 

[8thdaypriest]

4 hours ago, JoeMo said:

 

On 12/3/2016 at 4:43 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

Messianic Jews (and JoeMo) believe that Jews (those of Hebrew lineage) will rule the world with Christ.

I believe there is a hierarchy in heaven, just like here on earth.  All who are saved will rule with Christ; but - looking at the scripture literally, the 144,000 hold a higher position than the uncountable masses in the Kingdom.

On 12/2/2016 at 9:25 AM, JoeMo said:

I also believe that current and future Messianic Jews (ethnic AND spiritual) will make up the 144,000.

I did mis-speak when I wrote this - I don't even agree with it.  I should have said Messianic Israel ( both ethnic - the natural branches - and spiritual - those who have been grafted in - will make up the 144,000.  But both types of people (ethnic and spiritual Israel) will also make up the rest of the Kingdom's priests and kings as well.  The 144,00 will be in positions of higher authority than the rest of the saved.  At  least that's what I currently think.

 

Joe,

I believe that EVERY BELIEVER who is resurrected to everlasting life at the Second Coming, will become "priests of God and of Christ".  And if we become priests, then we will govern with Christ.  That is how we will "rule the nations". 

Most folks do not understand that anciently/originally - in Israel - the PRIESTHOOD GOVERNED before Israel rejected God's plan of government, in favor of a KING.  The priests TAUGHT the Law.  They were the JUDGES of last resort.  This in addition to their mediation in making atonement for penitents who brought sacrifices.  They also maintained the Tabernacle. 

Just who will be included in the 144,000 - I cannot say with confidence.  I do believe the number is symbolic, just like the description of them as "virgins".  They are not literally virgins.  The term is used to indicate that they have been cleansed of all sin - they are thus PURE, so they can be wed to Christ.  They will be HIS BRIDE.  They are not literally standing on Mount Zion, or in the New Jerusalem.  They are described as "standing on Mount Zion" in the same sense that the writer of Hebrews - speaking to all believers- said "you have come (present tense) to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God; the heavenly Jerusalem . . ."

The New Jerusalem has 12 foundations and 12 gates.  12 x 12 = 144   At this time, I believe that every citizen of the New Jerusalem is included in the 144,000.  Those citizens will be from "every nation, kindred, tongue, and people".  They are Israel Redeemed.  And they will "rule the nations" AS "priests of God and of Christ".   In that sense I agree with you Joe.  They will have authority (under Christ) over those resurrected after the 1000 years.  I absolutely do NOT believe they will rule over "the nations" during the 7th millennium.  "The nations" do not come back to life, until resurrected at the END of the 7th millennium. 

Sorry Gregory, if we go off the topic of your thread.  Maybe we should take this to a new thread. 

"The nations" will be resurrected as "the rest of the dead" AFTER the 7th millennium. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Rachel, it is becoming clear to me that you are attributing some teachings of the Hadith to the Quran.  I will suggest that you spend some time in researching the difference.

I am not going to get into a specific discussion as to what is contained in the Hadith and what is contained in the Quran.

 

NOTE:  The Hadith claims to be the teachings of Mohamed which may not be included in the Quran.  So, Muslims do not believe that the Quran contains all of the teachings of Mohamed.

 

[JoeMo]

3 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

So, Muslims do not believe that the Quran contains all or the teachings of Mohamed.

But it is my understanding that the authority of the hadiths is equal with the authority of the Quran for Muslims.

[Gregory Matthews]

 

The Quran is authorative as it contains the exact words of Allah as Mohmed recorded them in the Quran.

The Hadith, in contrast to the Quran. contains the words of Mohamed as others believe he spoke them.  IOW, the Hadith may consist of writings written by others than Mohamed.

So, no in theory, the Hadith is not equal in authority to the Quran.  However, in actual fact there are Muslims who may place it on equal authority.

In addition, there are  various sects within Islam.  The result of  this is that some Islamic sects may give more credence to the Hadith than to other sects.  Further, Muslims who are unable to read and write Arabic, may give more authority to the Hadith.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

From Wikipedia:

Hadith are the collections of the reports purporting to quote what the Islamic prophet Muhammad said verbatim on any matter. The term comes from the Arabic meaning "report" "account" or "narrative". A broader source including the deeds of Muhammad and reports about his companions is known as the Sunnah.

[8thdaypriest]

21 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Rachel, it is becoming clear to me that you are attributing some teachings of the Hadith to the Quran.  I will suggest that you spend some time in researching the difference.

I am not going to get into a specific discussion as to what is contained in the Hadith and what is contained in the Quran.

 

NOTE:  The Hadith claims to be the teachings of Mohamed which may not be included in the Quran.  So, Muslims do not believe that the Quran contains all of the teachings of Mohamed.

 

Just like the Jews believe the Torah does not contain all the teachings of Moses.  And so - the Oral Torah was needed for those additional teachings. 

[8thdaypriest]

21 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Rachel, it is becoming clear to me that you are attributing some teachings of the Hadith to the Quran.  I will suggest that you spend some time in researching the difference.

I am not going to get into a specific discussion as to what is contained in the Hadith and what is contained in the Quran.

 

NOTE:  The Hadith claims to be the teachings of Mohamed which may not be included in the Quran.  So, Muslims do not believe that the Quran contains all of the teachings of Mohamed.

 

Gregory,

Do you believe the "angel" who came to Mohamed, was an angel of Yahweh?  If not - why?

[JoeMo]

13 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Its kind of like what some people do with the writings of Ellen G White

I was just gonna say that!  You beat me to it.

[Gregory Matthews]

Perhaps, I need to be clear on something.  When I made the statement immediately below, I was stating what Muslims believe.  I was NOT stating my personal belief.

The Quran is authorative as it contains the exact words of Allah as Mohmed recorded them in the Quran.

Rachel, your question to me about an angel who came to Mohamed is unrelated to anything else that I have ever said.

My focus has been on the following:

1)  Islamic beliefs may spring from teachings found in the Hadith.  We should be careful not to inaccurately attribute these to the Quran.

2)  Christian students of Islam, fluent in Arabic (of which I am not any of  these) believe that there are some teachings in the Quran that are a part of Christianity and that these can be used as an opening wedge to introduce Muslims to Christianity and ultimately to Christ as their personal Saviour.

3)  On the basis of # 2, we should waist to see whether or not this approach is effective and we must be careful not to attribute teachings to the Quran that may spring from the Hadith rather than the Quran.

[Gregory Matthews]

Rachel has asked me:

Do you believe the "angel" who came to Mohamed, was an angel of Yahweh?  If not - why?

For one aspect of a response see my post immediately above this post.

On another aspect of a response,  The authority in my spiritual life is the Bible as commonly understood by Protestants to be the Old Testament and the New Testament.  Therefore, I do not look to either the Quran or any other book  as being my spiritual authority.

 

[JoeMo]

3 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Christian students of Islam, fluent in Arabic (of which I am not any of  these) believe that there are some teachings in the Quran that are a part of Christianity

Of course there are common themes through the Bible and the Quran.  Look at the similarities between some of the stories.  I believe major parts of the Quran were plagiarized from the Bible; and altered just enough to suit Islam.  For example look at the Quran's version of Abraham sacrificing his son.  The Bible has Abe sacrificing Isaac and the Quran has him sacrificing Ishmael.

[phkrause]

22 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Its kind of like what some people do with the writings of Ellen G White

I kind of disagree Wanderer! The reason I disagree, is because for one, EGW was pointing us to the Bible, whereas the Hadith, does not point Muslims to the Quran. Just as many extra books of Judaism does not point Jews to the Bible. Just as the book of Mormon does not point Mormons to the Bible, etc. That would be the biggest difference to me.

[JoeMo]

12 hours ago, phkrause said:

EGW was pointing us to the Bible

I inferred differently from Wanderer's post.  I think he was saying that some Muslims, like some SDA's, put the writings of others on the same plane as "scripture"; be it the Bible vs. EGW or the Quran vs. the Hadiths.

[phkrause]

12 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I inferred differently from Wanderer's post.  I think he was saying that some Muslims, like some SDA's, put the writings of others on the same plane as "scripture"; be it the Bible vs. EGW or the Quran vs. the Hadiths.

Your right, I just reread the post and I agree JoeMo. I took it wrong!!