John 10:30 – Jesus is The Son of God

[TrevorL]

John 10:30 – Jesus is The Son of God

 

John 10:30-36 (KJV): ³⁰ I and my Father are one. ³¹ Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. ³² Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? ³³ The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. ³⁴ Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? ³⁵ If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; ³⁶ Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

John 10:30 clearly teaches that Jesus is The Son of God. In verse 30 Jesus states that he is at one, at unity with His Father, thus claiming that God is His Father, and thus that He is The Son of God. When the Jews objected Jesus gives clear and thorough reasons why their accusation is incorrect, including verse 30 where Jesus reiterates in different words what he had stated in verse 30 by saying:

John 10:36 (KJV): I said, I am the Son of God

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Is there some question of whether Jesus is the Son of God??

[Samie]

12 minutes ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

Is there some question of whether Jesus is the Son of God??

I guess none. But for those who believe in ONENESS, in that Jesus is also the Father, there might be.

[TrevorL]

Greetings Pam,

7 hours ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

Is there some question of whether Jesus is the Son of God??

Yes, because those that believe the Trinity actually believe that Jesus is God the Son. Although they use the words “The Son of God” they do not accept the Biblical explanation of phrase “The Son of God”. Trinitarians do not believe that there is One God the Father, and that our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[JoeMo]

I believe there is oneness of Yahweh.  Yes, Jesus is the "Son of God"; but He had a pre-existence before being born of a woman.

"They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. ³ They all ate the same spiritual food ⁴ and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. ⁵ Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness." (I Cor. 10:2-5)

Jesus was the "I AM" that appeared to Moses in the wilderness.   He was with the 3 worthies in the furnace in Babylon.  When Jesus said "I and the Father are One", He basically said He was God.  He accepted worship on several occasions; from which I infer that He was either God or the blasphemer the Sanhedrin accused Him of being.  He created all things.

I see the Father or the Ancient of Days as the spiritual manifestation of God; and Jesus being the physical manifestation.  He is God every bit as much as the Father is God.  As a "twinitarian", I do NOT believe that the Holy Spirit is a separate entity; it is the manifestation of the omnipresent and omnipotent power and influence of the Father and the Son over mankind.

[8thdaypriest]

We had a long thread about the nature of the Spirit of God.  And now we have a thread about the nature of the Son of God.  

As most of you know, I believe that God the Father literally BEGET another being - His son.  If a human begets a son, that son is as much a human as his father.  And when GOD beget a Son, that Son was as much GOD as His Father.  Same powers - omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient. 

Did the Son have a beginning?  That's the question here -  I think.  If the Son was begotten out of God - then yes and no.  Yes He began to exist as a separate being - when He was begotten.  And no - if He was always within the "loins" of God the Father, then He has existed as long as God has existed.  Just as Levi paid tithes, because he was within the loins of Abraham.

NKJV  Micah 5:2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting."

The NIV is actually a more accurate translation here. 

NIV  Micah 5:2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times." 

God the Father did not originate.  He had no "origin".  Jesus did.  The origin of Jesus was from God His Father.  And the words translated "from everlasting" in the NKJ, do simply mean "from ancient times".  They do not prove that Jesus was without beginning. 

The hierarchy has existed for as long as Christ has existed.  The HEAD of Christ is God.  The Father is higher than Christ.  Jesus called His Father "My God" long after He returned to sit at His Father's right hand. 

[TrevorL]

Greetings JoeMo,

 

7 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I believe there is oneness of Yahweh.  Yes, Jesus is the "Son of God"; but He had a pre-existence before being born of a woman.

Jesus was the "I AM" that appeared to Moses in the wilderness.  

I appreciate your suggestion that Jesus in John 10:30 could be alluding to Deuteronomy 6:4:

Deuteronomy 6:4 (KJV): Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

or transliterating the Hebrew Name and title:

Deuteronomy 6:4: Hear, O Israel: Yahweh our Elohim is one Yahweh:

 

I had not previously thought of this connection, but had mainly considered that John 10:30 speaks of the unity between God the Father and His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. I was in part objecting to the suggestion that Jesus was claiming to be God, and this in the Trinitarian sense, that there is one God, consisting of God the Father and God the Son.

 

But I do believe that Jesus is part of the one Yahweh, but this consists of the One God, the Father and the development of the Yahweh Name, in that God has now given birth to a Son, the firstborn of the new creation, our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God.

Luke 1:35 (KJV): And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God

John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I do not believe in the pre-existence of Jesus.

 

Most translations and commentators accept the present tense “I am that I am”, but notice in the margin of the RV (or ASV) and RSV, an alternative is given “I will be that I will be” or “I will be what I will be”, showing that some modern scholars suggest this alternative reading. Although not popular I accept that this future tense is the correct translation. Not only modern scholars, Tyndale also translated this in the future tense.
Exodus 3:12-14 (Tyndale): 12 And he sayde: I wilbe with the. And this shalbe a token vnto the that I haue sent the: after that thou hast broughte the people out of Egipte, ye shall serue God vppon this mountayne. 13 Than sayde Moses vnto God: when I come vnto the childern of Israell and saye vnto them, the God of youre fathers hath sent me vnto you, ad they saye vnto me, what ys his name, what answere shall I geuethem? 14 Then sayde God vnto Moses: I wilbe what I wilbe: ad he sayde, this shalt thou saye vnto the children of Israel: I wilbe dyd send me to you.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

 

[TrevorL]

To further explain John 10:30, Jesus uses similar words in John 17. This is part of the prayer that Jesus addresses to His Father, the only true God:

John 17:1-3 (KJV):¹ These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: ² As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. ³ And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

 

Now Jesus had spoken of his unity with His Father in John 10:30, and he repeats this idea here, and speaks of the purpose to share this unity with his disciples:

John 17:6 (KJV): ⁶ I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. ¹⁷ Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. ¹⁸ As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. ¹⁹ And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified^a through the truth.  ²⁰ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; ²¹ That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. ²² And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: ²³ I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

 

Thus the expression of unity between Jesus and His Father in John 10:30 is reiterated here in John 17 and extended to incorporate the unity between God the Father, Jesus and the disciples. This is a further development of the Yahweh Name.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

[8thdaypriest]

Four times in the Book of Revelation, Jesus calls himself "the Alpha and the Omega".

Revelation 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." (NIV)

In the Hebrew that's Aleph/Tav - the first and last letter of the Hebrew alphabet.   

There are passages all thru the Old Testament, where those two Hebrew letters Aleph/Tav are found right in the middle of sentences. 

Those two letters are never translated, and carry no meaning on their own.  They are not read aloud.  The Rabbi's considered it a mystery.  I believe the Son of God was telling John, "I'm THAT GUY" - the one identified by those two letters.  Find the letters, and you can know that verse is speaking of ME. 

We today don't see those identifier letters, because we read translations of the words. 

There is a translation, WITH those identifying letters.  It's called "The Aleph-Tav Old Testament" compiled by Gregory T. Riether. 

I found it great fun to look thru all the verses with that two letter identifier, to see if I had already marked those verses in my regular study Bible as being about the Son of God. 

It starts right with Genesis 1:1  "In the beginning God [Aleph/Tav] created the heavens and the earth."   

And what does the New Testament say?  It says the Son of God created all things - that all things were created "through Him and for Him". 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Rachel (8thdaypriest),

5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

It starts right with Genesis 1:1  "In the beginning God [Aleph/Tav] created the heavens and the earth."   

And what does the New Testament say?  It says the Son of God created all things - that all things were created "through Him and for Him". 

 

I appreciate your response, but could you please check or clarify. With my poor understanding of Hebrew, my impression is that the Hebrew word for God in Genesis 1:1 is אֱֱלֹהִים “˒ĕlôhı̂ym” and this does not contain the letter “tav” ת. My Hebrew Bible does not have Aleph/Tav. While on the subject of Elohim, do you have any thoughts on Jesus’ exposition of Elohim in John 10:34-35? I only have a limited amount of SDA literature and could not find any reference to this. There is a reference to John 10:30 in support of the Trinity in “SDAs Believe – 27 Fundamental Doctrines” in Chapter 4 “God the Son” part 5. I would like to discuss this subject of Elohim when I consider Jesus’ second of two answers.

 

My purpose in this thread is to mainly consider John 10:30-36, rather than the full range of Trinitarian or similar ideas. I will defer discussing Jesus being the Alpha and Omega, except to state that I do not believe that this proves Jesus’ pre-existence, as I believe that Yahweh has become Jesus, as a Father becomes revealed in a Son. Also I believe that God the Father is the Creator Genesis 1:26, Psalm 8. Jesus did not exist before he was conceived and born of Mary Luke 1:30-35.

 

I would like to briefly consider the first of two “answers” that Jesus gives to the Jews

John 10:30-33 (KJV): ³⁰ I and my Father are one. ³¹ Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. ³² Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? ³³ The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

 

Notice that Jesus answered them. He answered them because he knew what they were thinking, and of what they were attempting to accuse him, even before they spoke. Even then they completely ignored his answer and blurted out their accusation: “for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God”. But Jesus did not claim to be God, as the Trinitarians also would like to suggest, but that the works and miracles that he performed were from God his Father, and they were evidence that God was with him.

 

John 3:1-2 (KJV): ¹  There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: ² The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Acts 2:22 (KJV): Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

 

Thus with this first answer, Jesus was not claiming to be God, but the Jews were oblivious to his words.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

[8thdaypriest]

13 hours ago, TrevorL said:

Greetings Rachel (8thdaypriest),

 

I appreciate your response, but could you please check or clarify. With my poor understanding of Hebrew, my impression is that the Hebrew word for God in Genesis 1:1 is אֱֱלֹהִים “˒ĕlôhı̂ym” and this does not contain the letter “tav” ת. My Hebrew Bible does not have Aleph/Tav.

Your Hebrew Bible is NOT a scroll, copied by hand from ancient scrolls.  Your Hebrew Bible contains only printed WORDS.  The Aleph/Tav, inserted between words in the text, was inserted there by Moses himself, at the dictation of God, and was copied faithfully by scribes, down thru the centuries.

[8thdaypriest]

Who was "the Angel of the LORD"?  "Angel" of course, means MESSENGER. 

I believe He was - and IS - the Son of God.  The Angel of the LORD existed long before Jesus the man, was born in Bethlehem. 

Genesis 22:1-18  “But the Angel of the LORD [Yehovah] called to him from heaven and said, ‘Abraham, Abraham!’ And he said, ‘Here I am.’ And He said, ‘Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son your only son, from Me.’”

        NOTE:  The Angel of the LORD speaks as Yehovah, saying, “You have not withheld your son . . . from Me.”

Genesis 31:10-13  Jacob said, “The Angel of God spoke to me in a dream saying, ‘I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed the pillar and where you made a vow to Me.’”

Exodus  3:2-6 “And the Angel of the LORD [Yehovah] appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of the burning bush:”(v.4).  “God [‘elohiym] called to him out of the midst of the bush,”(v.5). “Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.”(v.6). “I am the God [‘elohiym] of your father--the God [‘elohiym] of Abraham, the God [‘elohiym] of Isaac, and the God [‘elohiym] of Jacob.”

Exodus 3:13-14  [From the burning bush] “And God [‘elohiym] said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM,’

NOTE:  The Angel (the messenger) OF the LORD, speaks AS God.  A created angel, would say "Thus says the LORD . . . .".   but this Angel speaks AS GOD. 

    Exodus 23:20-21 “And God [‘elohiym] spoke all these words, saying . . .” (Exo 20:1).  “Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place I have prepared.  Beware of Him and obey His voice: do not provoke Him for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him.”

        NOTE:  To an ancient Israelite - to Moses, the phrase “My name is in Him” meant, “He is My Son.”

The Angel OF the LORD was NOT God the Father, yet he spoke as God. 

When the Son acted as the agent of His Father, He took His Father’s name.  The same applied, when He acted on behalf of the Father as “the Angel of the LORD” during the period called the Old Testament.

    Judges 2:1-2  “And the Angel of the Lord came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I swore unto Your fathers, and I said, I will never break My covenant with you.”  “. . . but you have not obeyed My voice” (v.2).

May I refer you to a study I did on this subject.  http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/11-The Mediator.pdf

If your browser does not take you to the pdf, then just go to prophecyviewpoint.com, and look under the button "Dominion Lost".  You will see another button for "The Mediator".

 

 

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Rachel (8thdaypriest),

 

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Your Hebrew Bible is NOT a scroll, copied by hand from ancient scrolls.  Your Hebrew Bible contains only printed WORDS.  The Aleph/Tav, inserted between words in the text, was inserted there by Moses himself, at the dictation of God, and was copied faithfully by scribes, down thru the centuries.

Do you have a link to an article on this, as my assessment is that the Hebrew scribes would not drop ANY letters even if they did not understand them. Do these letters occur in the Dead Sea Isaiah scroll?

 

I am interested in your additional response and your 14-page article, but I believe that the OT Theophanies were by Angels including Michael the Archangel. They were given authority to represent God, speaking and acting on His behalf. Please also consider Gabriel in his appearance to Zechariah, and then Mary.

 

 

Quote

The name Michael means “like unto God.”

For a created being to take such a name seems blasphemous.  But for the only begotten Son of God to take that name, seems appropriate.

Philippians 2:5  Prior to His incarnation, the Son of God existed “in the form of God” but did not “consider it robbery [something to be grasped] to be equal with God.”

 

  

Taking one portion from your article, how do you arrive at the idea that Michael assumed his own name? God has given him that name, and of all the angels he prefigures what was to be the work and role of Jesus when he sat down at the right hand of God Psalm 110:1, being exalted over all the angels, including Michael and Gabriel. The angels only stand in the presence of God as they are ministers. I do not accept that Philippians 2:5 is speaking of the incarnation, but his disposition of mind as a human, when he voluntarily became a servant/son, submitting himself to His Father, even unto the death of the cross, rather than grasp at equality with God as Adam did in the garden. I believe Luke 1:30-35 in its literal detail, that God the Father is the Father of Jesus through the Holy Spirit power to create, while Mary is his mother. Jesus grew in wisdom and understanding Luke 2:52, but this could not be said if Jesus pre-existed.

I could discuss many other aspects of your response and article, but will leave this. I need to spend some more time on Jesus’ second answer from John 10:30-36. I believe that Jesus’ exposition of Elohim in this passage gives an important key to unlock the subject of the use of Elohim in the OT and this could help in regard to some of your article. Have you considered this usage of Psalm 82 by Jesus? Jesus is suggesting that the Judges represented God and were called gods or Elohim, and this is similar to the Angel representing God and being called God or Elohim. Michael also had God’s Name Yahweh because he represented God the Father, but in a couple of passages it is clear that Yahweh, God the Father is separate from this Angel.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

I would like to now consider Jesus’ second answer from John 10:30-36. This second answer is in response to their accusation in verse 33, that Jesus was speaking “blasphemy, and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God”:

John 10:33-36 (KJV): ³³ The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. ³⁴ Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? ³⁵ If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; ³⁶ Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

 

This citation of Psalm 82:6 at first seems obscure, and we may ask how this answers their accusation. This passage is talking of the Judges in Israel and Jesus draws attention to the fact that the Hebrew word “Elohim”, translated “God” or “gods” is used for these Judges. It is interesting to note that the translators had difficulty with the relevant verses where the Judges acted in the role of God (Hebrew Elohim):
Exodus 21:6 (KJV): 6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Exodus 21:6 (ASV): then his master shall bring him unto God, and shall bring him to the door, or unto the door-post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever.

Exodus 22:8-9 (KJV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour’s goods. 9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.
Exodus 22:8-9 (ASV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall come near unto God, to see whether he have not put his hand unto his neighbor’s goods. 9 For every matter of trespass, whether it be for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, whereof one saith, This is it, the cause of both parties shall come before God; he whom God shall condemn shall pay double unto his neighbor.

The role and responsibility of the judges is indicated in the following:
Deuteronomy 1:17 (KJV): Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God’s: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.
2 Chronicles 19:6 (KJV): And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment.
So the judges were called God or gods because they were united in administering the work or judgements of God. They represented God and were given the title of God. Jesus was claiming a similar though superior role as The Son of God, by calling and claiming God as His Father. He also represented God, but was not claiming to be God. This then is a key to unlock many of the OT passages. If the Judges were called Elohim because they represented God, the various appearances of Angels, where the word God or Elohim is used, has the same concept, they represented God. These passages are not speaking of a pre-existent Jesus, or the second person of the Trinity, God the Son.

 

Jesus is thus rejecting their accusation that Jesus is claiming to be God.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

[8thdaypriest]

On 12/10/2016 at 2:00 PM, TrevorL said:

Do you have a link to an article on this, as my assessment is that the Hebrew scribes would not drop ANY letters even if they did not understand them. Do these letters occur in the Dead Sea Isaiah scroll?

 

The Westminster Leningrad Codex was used as the Hebrew text for the Aleph-Tav Bible.  I do not speak or write Hebrew.  I have only my Strong's, so I'll have to leave it with you to seek out photocopies of the Hebrew scrolls. 

[8thdaypriest]

You said that Gabriel was above Michael.  I don't see that.

In Daniel Cpt 8 v.16 Gabriel (one of the angels) comes to explain a vision to Daniel.  Gabriel comes again in 9:21 to explain the 70 weeks.  In 10:31 Gabriel says "the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold Michael, one (or first) of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia. 

No human prince could withstand Gabriel.  But "the prince of the kingdom of Persia" may be one of the evil demon angels (of the angels who rebelled with Lucifer/Satan). The prince of Persia would be the one over the kingdom of Persia, who stirs up trouble and rebellion within that kingdom.

Michael may be just one of several "chief princes" or He may be "first" of the chief princes.  The Hebrew allows for either.  If He is "first" then He is above/ahead of Gabriel. 

Michael is the "great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people" in 12:1.  That would make Michael the "prince of Israel", and that is a title of Messiah.

Acts 5:31 [concerning Jesus] "God exalted him to (sit at) his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins." (NIV)

[Gregory Matthews]

Aleph/Tav:   The Internet is full of sources that support what Rachel has said on this subject.  One can easily pull the up by googling Aleph/Tav.  However it is an important point to note that these sources are clearly of the Messianic Jewish background.  Further, these sources are not based upon standard knowledge of the Hebrew language.  Rather, they appear to me to be grounded in the readings of people who do not understand the ancient Hebrew scripts that they cite.  IOW, citations without knowledge is the operating word that I see in those Internet websites.

The following URL will give you an in-depth perspective  on this issue that is based upon standard knowledge of the ancient Hebrew scripts.

https://menashedovid1.wordpress.com/aleph-א-tav-ת/  

To be clear, the above URL is not from a Christian background.  If that is an issue with you, O.K.  The reality is that when we are dealing ancient languages that pre-date Christianity, we often must use non-Christian sources.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

 

 

The following is a brief part of the above URL that tells us in brief what the aleph/tav actually is.

The ‘aleph tav’ (את) however, is a Hebrew grammatical sign of the definite direct object, not translated in English but generally preceding and indicating the accusative. A direct object is a noun or pronoun that receives the action of a verb or shows the result of the action. It answers the question “What?” or “Whom?” after an action verb. An action verb with a direct object is called a transitive verb. Going to the very beginning:

בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ

In the beginning G-d created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1

The ‘aleph tav’ highlighted in bold tells us who (G-d/ אֱלֹהִים) created (בָּרָא) the heavens (הַשָּׁמַיִם) and the earth (הָאָרֶץ). The grammatical of course is largely ignored and in fact does not appear hardly at all in most web sites of the Christian and Messianic movements. In view of the fundamental grammatical use of the ‘aleph tav’ no wonder the ‘aleph tav’ is found on nearly every page of the Hebrew Scriptures, without ‘aleph tav’ one would not know who is doing what!

[Gregory Matthews]

Here is another problem with the Aleph/Tav issue:

There are other issues also. but to understand them, visit the URL that I posted.

Instead some Christian and Messianic movements insist on using what they say is the “Paleo script”. The ignorance and their use of the “Paleo script” often gets mixed with both the Phoenician script and/ the pictographic Proto-Canaanite script. What is often presented for aleph as the “Paleo script”, is the pictographic Proto-Canaanite script’s use of aleph, which is a bull or an ox and for the tav which looks like a multiplication sign (×). Without justification however, the tav often gets mysteriously rotated round forty five degrees to look like a cross (+). The rotation of tav to look like a cross cannot be supported anywhere in documented literature.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Rachel (8thdaypriest) and Greetings Greg,

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

You said that Gabriel was above Michael.  I don't see that.

No, I do not believe that Gabriel is above Michael. Both stand in the presence of God, while Jesus is now seated at the right hand of God. I do not believe that Michael (or the 2nd Person of the Trinity) disappeared into the womb of Mary, and then into the supposed dual nature of the body of Jesus for 33 years. Rather he continued to minister throughout as God’s archangel Jude 9, Zechariah 3:1-5 overseeing the ministry of Jesus, the antitypical Joshua, the High Priest.

 

I appreciate the information concerning the Aleph-Tav Bible and I would need to study this to make any serious comment. The reason I mentioned the Dead Sea Isaiah scroll is that it is 1000 years older than the oldest known Masoretic text, but has remarkably few differences, and these are only minor, and do not significantly alter the sense.

 

I would like to briefly comment on Psalm 82 and its significance:

Psalm 82 (KJV): A Psalm of Asaph. ¹ God standeth  in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. ² How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah. ³ Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy. ⁴ Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked. ⁵ They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course. ⁶ I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. ⁷ But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. ⁸ Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.

The Psalmist is speaking against the Judges in Israel, and even though they were called Elohim, they were about to be judged and removed from their office. The Angels, God’s ministers, another class of Elohim, heavenly in nature and position, were about to judge these corrupt Judges, Elohim, Divinely appointed originally under Moses, but human. The final outcome was the development of another class of Elohim, who would arise and judge the earth verse 6, including the overthrow of these corrupt judges.

 

The Judges or Elohim in Jesus’ time were the Sanhedrin, and their associates, who had tried to arrest Jesus at the Feast of Tabernacles, despite Nicodemus' objection, and who had tried to entrap him, the light of the world, with the woman taken in adultery, and who had cast out the blind man, despite his simple faithful testimony. Jesus in quoting Psalm 82 was reminding them that their day of judgement and removal from office was near at hand.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

[JoeMo]

Trevor,

I respectfully submit that  "elohim" is never translated as "judge" (to my knowledge) in scripture.  It almost always refers to God, "gods", or other objects of worship.  The Elohim translated "'gods" referred to in Ps. 82:6 are spiritual beings that Yahweh placed in charge on the nations after Babel who rebelled against Yahweh; and have lost their immortality as a consequence.  They are sentenced to death by God Himself.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JoeMo, 

3 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Trevor,

I respectfully submit that  "elohim" is never translated as "judge" (to my knowledge) in scripture.  It almost always refers to God, "gods", or other objects of worship.  The Elohim translated "'gods" referred to in Ps. 82:6 are spiritual beings that Yahweh placed in charge on the nations after Babel who rebelled against Yahweh; and have lost their immortality as a consequence.  They are sentenced to death by God Himself.

Could you please consider my earlier post where I quoted from the KJV of Exodus 21:6 and 22:6-7 where “Elohim” is translated as “judges” a total of four times. This is not the normal word for judge, but it is an interpretation, or possibly what can be termed “dynamic equivalence” rather than a “literal” translation. In contrast the ASV has “God” in each of these occurrences. The Israelites had to go to the Judges, but the word Elohim is used because the Judge represented God Deuteronomy 1:17, 2 Chronicles 19:6.

 

I looked at a few of my print Bibles, and the following is the result for Exodus 21:6 and 22:6-7:

NKJV judges

NIV judges (mg God)

Rotherham God (mg: Heb: ha-‘elohim “before the judges, and so almost all interpreters; for the judges pronounce the sentence in the name of the Deity” – Kalisch)

NEB, JB, NJB God (JB mg: has a note that this would be “Through trial by ordeal, or oracle”)

REB God (mg or the gods or the judges)

 

The RSV has “God” for “Elohim” but it also has a marginal reference in my Harper Study Bible RSV to:

Deuteronomy 17:8-13 (RSV): ⁸ “If any case arises requiring decision between one kind of homicide and another, one kind of legal right and another, or one kind of assault and another, any case within your towns which is too difficult for you, then you shall arise and go up to the place which the Lord your God will choose, ⁹ and coming to the Levitical priests, and to the judge who is in office in those days, you shall consult them, and they shall declare to you the decision. ¹⁰ Then you shall do according to what they declare to you from that place which the Lord will choose; and you shall be careful to do according to all that they direct you; ¹¹ according to the instructions which they give you, and according to the decision which they pronounce to you, you shall do; you shall not turn aside from the verdict which they declare to you, either to the right hand or to the left. ¹² The man who acts presumptuously, by not obeying the priest who stands to minister there before the Lord your God, or the judge, that man shall die; so you shall purge the evil from Israel. ¹³ And all the people shall hear, and fear, and not act presumptuously again.

 

Another important use of Elohim is found in:

Psalm 8:5 (KJV): For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Psalm 8:5 (RSV): Yet thou hast made him little less than God,

and dost crown him with glory and honor.

Here again the word is Elohim, but the KJV translators have interpreted the word as angels because of the context. This interpretation is confirmed by Paul’s exposition in Hebrews 2 where he uses this to prove that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels. Psalm 8:5 also proves that the plural “us” in Genesis 1:26-27 is God inviting the angels to help in creating man.

 

I do not agree with your view of spiritual beings who have lost their immortality. I cannot understand how such a view would fit into Jesus’ use of this verse from Psalm 82 in his exposition in John 10:30-36. An important reason why Jesus selected the reference to the judges is that they were addressed as Elohim even though they were men. Part of the accusation by the Jews was:

John 10:33 (KJV): The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

So it was fitting to quote a passage where Elohim were men, and introduce the whole concept that God allows his title and Name to be used by those who represent God, whether they are angels or men.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

[8thdaypriest]

23 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Here is another problem with the Aleph/Tav issue:

There are other issues also. but to understand them, visit the URL that I posted.

 

 

Thanks for the explanations Gregory.  I did receive my Aleph/Tav Bible from a Messianic teacher.

[8thdaypriest]

6 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Trevor,

I respectfully submit that  "elohim" is never translated as "judge" (to my knowledge) in scripture.  It almost always refers to God, "gods", or other objects of worship.  The Elohim translated "'gods" referred to in Ps. 82:6 are spiritual beings that Yahweh placed in charge on the nations after Babel who rebelled against Yahweh; and have lost their immortality as a consequence.  They are sentenced to death by God Himself.

0430 is NOT translated as "judge" but the Strong's gives "judges" or "rulers" as possible meanings of "elohim".

0430 ~yhil{a/ 'elohiym {el-o-heem'}
Meaning:  1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive - singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God

[8thdaypriest]

TrevorL has to dismiss a great many verses of the Apostolic Writings, to hold his belief that the Son of God DID NOT INCARNATE, because He did not EXIST before HE was conceived in Mary. 

“I came down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of Him that sent me” (John 6:38).

According to TrevorL, Jesus could not have "come down from heaven".  He first began to EXIST on this earth.

Here are a few verses which say that God's son was the creator of the Heavens and the earth, and every creature in or on them.

Ephesians 3:9 “ ... and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;”

Hebrews 1:1-2, 8, 10  “God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person [singular], and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,”... “And: [to the Son He says] ‘You LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands;”

John 1:3  “All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.”

John 1:10  “He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.”

    Colossians l:12-16 “ ... giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.”