Sweet in the mouth; bitter in the belly.

[Samie]

From another thread:

On 16/11/2016 at 7:49 AM, Dave Watchman said:

I hope that great tribulation does NOT begin next Monday. I would like to have another summer.

It looks like the great tribulation will only occur AFTER the gospel Jesus wanted preached to the world had been preached. IMHO, the gospel popularly preached to the world is not the one referred to by Jesus.  I think, the gospel most preachers preach even goes against the words of Jesus Himself in at least two points. 

1.  Whereas Jesus said man can do NOTHING when apart from Him (John 15:5), most preachers require those they consider yet apart from Christ to do SOMETHING - believe and accept - so they can be in Him.

2.  Whereas Jesus explained through the parables of the lost (Luke 15) that people begin life NOT lost, most preachers teach that people are born in sin, and hence born already lost.

It is sweet for preachers to preach the gospel, but to know that the brand of gospel they preach is not the one Jesus wanted preached is bitter. Sweet in the mouth and bitter in the belly, hence they must prophesy again (Rev 10:10, 11), and this time, it should be THE gospel our Lord wanted preached just before He comes again - one that does not contradict, but is instead based on, what our Savior Himself taught.

[Dave Watchman]

Hi Sammie.

On 11/15/2016 at 6:49 PM, Dave Watchman said:

I hope that great tribulation does NOT begin next Monday. I would like to have another summer.

Looks like it didn't begin on Monday the 21st.

But I found my confirmation number of 777 days. I also found the confirmation for my 420 day hypothesis.

Quote

It looks like the great tribulation will only occur AFTER the gospel Jesus wanted preached to the world had been preached. IMHO, the gospel popularly preached to the world is not the one referred to by Jesus.  I think, the gospel most preachers preach even goes against the words of Jesus Himself in at least two points. 

It looks like the great tribulation will END only after the Gospel of the kingdom is preached to all nations.

Are you one of the 144,000? I think that this Gospel of the Kingdom, among other things, will be spread throughout the world very fast over a span of 420 days. A third of 1260. Most of the 144,000 will be Chinese and Indian. They'll be spread out around the world. Middle eastern Servants will testify to Middle eastern saints and Asian Servants will testify to Asian saints. They'll be the boots on the ground broadcasting the 4 Angels message. Worship the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth and all them that dwell therein on His Holy Day. There will be about 1 of them for about 50,000 people, it will happen during a time of emergency. Do you think that they can pull this off in only 1 year, 1 month and 25 days?

"With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

1 hour ago, Samie said:

1.  Whereas Jesus said man can do NOTHING when apart from Him (John 15:5), most preachers require those they consider yet apart from Christ to do SOMETHING - believe and accept - so they can be in Him.

If Jesus said that we can do NOTHING apart from Him, do you think that He would trust us to get the Gospel out to all nations so that then the end would come? The end would never come, we haven't been very successful during the last 2000 years. And I read that our numbers are declining. That's why the 144.000 are going to eat the little book. They'll be given the words to speak and when the shattering of the power of these holy people comes to an end all these things will be finished.

1 hour ago, Samie said:

2.  Whereas Jesus explained through the parables of the lost (Luke 15) that people begin life NOT lost, most preachers teach that people are born in sin, and hence born already lost.

I'm not sure about everyone else, but I was born in sin. Bad to the bone even as an infant. But I was also born saved. Because I was picked by the Father from before the foundation of the universe. And I think that you were too.

That means that nobody can snatch us from our Savior's Righteous Right Hand.

 

[Samie]

1 hour ago, Dave Watchman said:

It looks like the great tribulation will END only after the Gospel of the kingdom is preached to all nations.

As I understand it, Jesus seemed to have confirmed that when the Gospel He wanted preached had been preached, it is when the Abomination of Desolation will be set up, triggering the start of the great tribulation the occurrence of which God will shorten or no flesh remains alive when Christ returns.  When the great tribulation ends, unusual celestial phenomena (such as solar eclipse by day and then lunar eclipse on that same day by nighttime) will immediately take place and will be capped by the second coming (see Matt 24:14 - 31).  The order of events in Matthew appears to be the same sequence outlined in Dan 12:1 ,2 where the great tribulation is called the time of trouble.

 

4 hours ago, Dave Watchman said:

Are you one of the 144,000? I think that this Gospel of the Kingdom, among other things, will be spread throughout the world very fast over a span of 420 days. A third of 1260. Most of the 144,000 will be Chinese and Indian. They'll be spread out around the world. Middle eastern Servants will testify to Middle eastern saints and Asian Servants will testify to Asian saints. They'll be the boots on the ground broadcasting the 4 Angels message. Worship the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth and all them that dwell therein on His Holy Day. There will be about 1 of them for about 50,000 people, it will happen during a time of emergency. Do you think that they can pull this off in only 1 year, 1 month and 25 days?

I believe the 144,000 are the saints that shall remain alive until Jesus comes.  And yes, I think they will play a major role in the preaching of the gospel Jesus wanted preached to the world before He returns. As to the exact number of days, I still have no Bible-based idea so far.

 

4 hours ago, Dave Watchman said:

If Jesus said that we can do NOTHING apart from Him, do you think that He would trust us to get the Gospel out to all nations so that then the end would come? The end would never come, we haven't been very successful during the last 2000 years. And I read that our numbers are declining. That's why the 144.000 are going to eat the little book. They'll be given the words to speak and when the shattering of the power of these holy people comes to an end all these things will be finished.

The fact that Christ commands people what people need to do is simply because He knows people are ABLE to do SOMETHING, and are therefore NOT apart from Him.  If He knew people can do NOTHING, why would He expect people to do things and then punish them for not doing what He knows they can't? Do we expect our cats to bark and howl and then beat them if they purr and mew instead?

 

4 hours ago, Dave Watchman said:

I'm not sure about everyone else, but I was born in sin. Bad to the bone even as an infant. But I was also born saved. Because I was picked by the Father from before the foundation of the universe. And I think that you were too.

That means that nobody can snatch us from our Savior's Righteous Right Hand.

I have tried searching for just one single verse in the Bible that says people are born in sin but so far I have found NONE. Instead, what I found is the opposite. People are born NOT lost as Jesus explained in the parables of the lost.  Sadly all of us sinned AFTER birth, NOT born in sin.  And to be NOT lost is to be in Christ.

[JoeMo]

14 hours ago, Samie said:

I have tried searching for just one single verse in the Bible that says people are born in sin but so far I have found NONE.

Try this verse ...

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." (Ps. 51:5)

[8thdaypriest]

22 hours ago, Samie said:

From another thread:

It looks like the great tribulation will only occur AFTER the gospel Jesus wanted preached to the world had been preached. IMHO, the gospel popularly preached to the world is not the one referred to by Jesus.  I think, the gospel most preachers preach even goes against the words of Jesus Himself in at least two points. 

1.  Whereas Jesus said man can do NOTHING when apart from Him (John 15:5), most preachers require those they consider yet apart from Christ to do SOMETHING - believe and accept - so they can be in Him.

2.  Whereas Jesus explained through the parables of the lost (Luke 15) that people begin life NOT lost, most preachers teach that people are born in sin, and hence born already lost.

It is sweet for preachers to preach the gospel, but to know that the brand of gospel they preach is not the one Jesus wanted preached is bitter. Sweet in the mouth and bitter in the belly, hence they must prophesy again (Rev 10:10, 11), and this time, it should be THE gospel our Lord wanted preached just before He comes again - one that does not contradict, but is instead based on, what our Savior Himself taught.

I don't believe the GOSPEL will go to EVERY person, until the 8th millennium, when "the rest of the dead" are resurrected as "nations in the four corners of the earth". 

[8thdaypriest]

 

 

2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

16 hours ago, Samie said:

I have tried searching for just one single verse in the Bible that says people are born in sin but so far I have found NONE.

Try this verse ...

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." (Ps. 51:5)

Romans 7:14 [Paul speaking] “For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal (of flesh), sold under sin.”

    Romans 8:7 “Because the carnal mind [governed by the flesh] is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.”

Sounds like Paul believed he was sinful.

Here's Paul's description of the Gentiles at Ephesus BEFORE they believed in Christ.

Ephesians 2:12 "remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. (NIV)

Sounds pretty LOST in sin - to me.

[Samie]

3 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Try this verse ...

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." (Ps. 51:5)

Thanks JoeMo.

 

KJV Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

If we apply David's statement on how he views his condition to every one on earth, then God's statement to Jeremiah would have to be applied to everyone as well.

KJV Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee ...

Hence, shaped and conceived in sin but sanctified before birth, and those God sanctified He made perfect forever (Hebrews 10:10, 14).  Thus, people couldn't be born already sinners.  Sinning is done AFTER, not before nor during, one is born. This, I think, is the same view propounded by King Solomon when he said:

KJV Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

And, as I see it, it is also the same idea that Jesus Himself explained in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin and lost son in Luke 15. Before the sheep got lost, it was with its shepherd; before the coin was lost, it was with its owner; and before the son went lost, he was with his father.  So with us all sinners. We did not begin life already lost. And to be NOT lost is to be in Christ.

[Samie]

35 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

 

 

Romans 7:14 [Paul speaking] “For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal (of flesh), sold under sin.”

    Romans 8:7 “Because the carnal mind [governed by the flesh] is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.”

Sounds like Paul believed he was sinful.

Here's Paul's description of the Gentiles at Ephesus BEFORE they believed in Christ.

Ephesians 2:12 "remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. (NIV)

Sounds pretty LOST in sin - to me.

Yes, all sinned, but not born in sin, I guess.  To me, sinning is done AFTER one is born.

[8thdaypriest]

So you have started yet another thread with the SAME topic of universally saved mankind - even before Adam sinned.  Every name of every person who would ever exist, already written in the Book of Life.  Persons must overcome evil during their lifetimes on earth (unless they died as infants or young children) in order to STAY SAVED (their names to stay in the Book). 

I thought we had exhausted every possible argument concerning your version of the Gospel -  several threads ago.

I would like to start a thread with the question "Is God just?"  

Is it JUST, to leave ignorant pagans behind (like animals) - unsaved forever - simply because they were ignorant of God?  My answer:  No.  

 

Is it JUST, to transport infants and young children straight into His eternal kingdom, simply because they died as infants without understanding?  My answer: No.

Samie's Gospel has God saving ignorant pagans - all of them - BECAUSE - they never knowingly sinned against Him.  But they never CHOSE to serve God either. 

If God requires that all informed human beings must CHOOSE, then is it not UNJUST to exempt the greater part of mankind?  My answer:  Yes.  

I can understand how Samie came up with his Gospel.  I just don't agree with his Gospel.  I believe there is a better way for God to be just - with every human being. 

Everyone MUST CHOOSE - to serve God, or to reject Him.  But they cannot CHOOSE unless they are alive.  And they cannot CHOOSE unless they HEAR who God is, and how much He loves mankind (the message of the cross). 

The simple solution is to resurrect those persons who died in ignorance of God, including all infants and young children.  And the only time frame I see in Scripture, for that resurrection is at the 8th millennium.  That is when "the rest of the dead" come back to life. 

I don't believe "the rest" are all of the wicked.  I believe they will be "nations" of people who died in ignorance, and thus never had a CHOICE.  You cannot CHOOSE if you don't know you have a CHOICE.  And you won't CHOOSE is you don't know you have to. 

 

[Samie]

50 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I don't believe the GOSPEL will go to EVERY person, until the 8th millennium, when "the rest of the dead" are resurrected as "nations in the four corners of the earth". 

What I highlighted in bold red above is also my belief. That's how I understood Jesus to mean when He said the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world - "preached in all the world" NOT "to every person".  I think it is territorial instead of individual.

[Samie]

7 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

So you have started yet another thread with the SAME topic of universally saved mankind - even before Adam sinned.  Every name of every person who would ever exist, already written in the Book of Life.  Persons must overcome evil during their lifetimes on earth (unless they died as infants or young children) in order to STAY SAVED (their names to stay in the Book). 

I thought we had exhausted every possible argument concerning your version of the Gospel -  several threads ago.

In those threads, the concept that God saved Adam the day he sinned was NEVER discussed.

 

9 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Is it JUST, to leave ignorant pagans behind (like animals) - unsaved forever - simply because they were ignorant of God?  My answer:  No.  

I think your idea of pagans are unsaved forever being ignorant of God has no biblical basis. If there is, then please show it. While waiting, here's one verse that, to me, looks like going against the direction you are taking:

KJV Romans 1:19   Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

[Samie]

16 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Samie's Gospel has God saving ignorant pagans - all of them - BECAUSE - they never knowingly sinned against Him.  But they never CHOSE to serve God either. 

In my post previous to this, I have shown you the verse, Rom 1:19, that seems to me to be saying that pagans are not ignorant of God. So please don't accuse me of teaching that God will save all ignorant pagans. 

Jesus' own words seem pretty clear to me to be teaching that when He comes every man will be judged according to what he has done. see Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12.  God NOW commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30); the same command He made in the OT (Ezek 18:30); that's the same command Jesus made when He preached the gospel of the kingdom (Mark 1:14, 15), the same gospel He wanted preached to all the world before He comes again.  Why would God command all to repent if all are not able to do what He commands, and then punish those who are not able to do either because they are ignorant or not able?

Even pagans know evil from good (Rom 2:14, 15). And repentance is change of mind for that which is good. Instead of doing evil, do good.  IOW, overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21). Jesus assured that overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life and will be seated with Him in His throne as He also overcame and sat down with the Father in His throne (Rev 3:5, 21).  All NOT blotted out will be allowed entry to heaven (Rev 21:27); all blotted out will have their portion in the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

[8thdaypriest]

22 hours ago, Samie said:

KJV Romans 1:19   Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

If this were true, then there was no need for missionaries or Apostles to teach the Gospel, or the ways of the LORD, because every human already knew could be known - of God. 

The idea that every human being "knows" what "may be known of God" is absurd.  Almost everyone at this forum agrees that we will be learning more and more and more of God for all eternity. 

I think what you're saying is that all humans "knew" enough to avoid "wrong", and do "right".  I would argue that point. 

It was "right" within many Indian tribes of the Americas, to attack white people, (or other Indians) to take scalps, to torture enemies (to extract power from them), or to shrink their heads.  Within many pagan cultures, human sacrifice was acceptable and "right".  Worship of ancestors was regarded as "right" within certain cultures.  "Right" was defined by their culture - NOT by the God of the Bible. 

Paul said to the Ephesian believers :  " As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient (Eph 2:1-2 NIV).

So they WERE (past tense) DEAD.

But THEN:

NIV  Ephesians 1:13  "And you also were included in Christ WHEN you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. WHEN you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

The Ephesians were "in Christ" WHEN they heard the message, and believed it. 

BEFORE THAT, they were:

Ephesians 2:12 " separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. (NIV)

[Samie]

On 08/12/2016 at 5:18 AM, Samie said:

KJV Romans 1:19   Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Rachel countered:

18 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

If this were true, then there was no need for missionaries or Apostles to teach the Gospel, or the ways of the LORD, because every human already knew could be known - of God. 

The idea that every human being "knows" what "may be known of God" is absurd.

I am not sure whether you are implying that Rom 1:19 is not true, but are you?  I don't think it is spiritually healthy for me to consider a biblical passage as untrue just because it does not sit well with my position.

18 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Almost everyone at this forum agrees that we will be learning more and more and more of God for all eternity. 

I also agree.

Learning is a process, just like learning good manners. Parents teach all their children good manners. Some of their kids readily learn; others would need longer time. Others refuse to practise what were taught. Still parents persist in teaching them. Same thing with our Father. He SURELY knows what about Him is to be manifested to me, and to him and to her. But did all readily understand what were manifested to them individually? Maybe not. Some understood one thing, others some other things. You see, there are Trinitarians, others are Twinitarians (to borrow a term from a poster I forgot who in this forum), and Unitarians. But to them all, including the pagans, God has manifested what might be known about Him. God knows how each one understood what were manifested and all will be held accountable.

That is how I understand Rom 1:19.

[Samie]

19 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I think what you're saying is that all humans "knew" enough to avoid "wrong", and do "right".  I would argue that point. 

It was "right" within many Indian tribes of the Americas, to attack white people, (or other Indians) to take scalps, to torture enemies (to extract power from them), or to shrink their heads.  Within many pagan cultures, human sacrifice was acceptable and "right".  Worship of ancestors was regarded as "right" within certain cultures.  "Right" was defined by their culture - NOT by the God of the Bible. 

That is perhaps your perception of how pagan cultures define what to them is "right" or "wrong".  But I think God won't just sit back and simply watch doing nothing while His children are being deceived by Satan into believing what is right is wrong, and what is wrong is right. Our God of love (agape) can't stand a minute of that, I guess. Even before Satan has started his move, God has already impressed upon His children's mind what is right.  But it's up to us to act on what God has impressed upon us. And we are warned:

2 Thessalonians 2:10 - 12  ... because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

[Samie]

19 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Paul said to the Ephesian believers :  " As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient (Eph 2:1-2 NIV).

So they WERE (past tense) DEAD.

If you are implying that people start out life spiritually DEAD using Eph 2:1-2 as basis, then I respectfully disagree.

To me, the verse says the opposite, that is, people start out life spiritually alive and then spiritually die when they "followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air".  Instead of following the ways of heaven they followed the ways of this world. I believe the apostle Paul cannot and will not contradict his statement in other parts of the Bible where he said he was first alive and then die:

Romans 7:9   For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

[Samie]

20 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

NIV  Ephesians 1:13  "And you also were included in Christ WHEN you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. WHEN you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

The Ephesians were "in Christ" WHEN they heard the message, and believed it. 

To me, the NAS version of this verse better reflects the Greek text:

NAS Ephesians 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise

The verse seems to speak about our being sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit.  You don't seal the contents outside the container, they must be IN the container first and then apply the seal.  We are FIRST in Christ before we can be "sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit".

As per the verse, Listening precedes believing which precedes sealing. But our being In Him precedes all, because APART from Him we can do NOTHING, our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ Himself said (John 15:5). If we are NOT in Him, we cannot listen nor believe and we cannot be sealed.

[8thdaypriest]

7 hours ago, Samie said:

Rom 1:19

I do not believe it is good to base an entire doctrine upon one verse which is not clearly understood.  Even Peter said that Paul wrote many things that are hard to understand. 

In verse 20 "for since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead." 

REALLY?  So my three nieces who were educated as atheists by my sister, will be judged severely by God, for believing their professors who explained the stars and invisible forces in scientific terms, completely negating the existence of an eternal "GOD" who created everything.  Seems rather harsh to blame my nieces for their education.

 

[8thdaypriest]

6 hours ago, Samie said:

To me, the NAS version of this verse better reflects the Greek text:

NAS Ephesians 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise

The verse seems to speak about our being sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit.  You don't seal the contents outside the container, they must be IN the container first and then apply the seal.  We are FIRST in Christ before we can be "sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit".

As per the verse, Listening precedes believing which precedes sealing. But our being In Him precedes all, because APART from Him we can do NOTHING, our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ Himself said (John 15:5). If we are NOT in Him, we cannot listen nor believe and we cannot be sealed.

No Samie,

We are NOT "in Christ" BEFORE we believe and open our heart to Him.

Romans 16:7 “Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.”

I'm going to refer any folks following this thread to a study I posted on my website, "The Book of Life - A Challenge".  This is the study I wrote after debating for weeks with you.

I just don't feel there is anything to be gained by repeating the same arguments over and over and over.

Here's the link to the study:  http://prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/Book Chapters/1-BOOK OF LIFE -Challenge.pdf

[phkrause]

On 12/7/2016 at 4:18 PM, Samie said:

KJV Romans 1:19   Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

 

58 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I do not believe it is good to base an entire doctrine upon one verse which is not clearly understood.  Even Peter said that Paul wrote many things that are hard to understand. 

Samie, I have to agree with 8thdaypriest on this point. Personally I believe that Paul is talking about believers here!

[Samie]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I do not believe it is good to base an entire doctrine upon one verse which is not clearly understood.

Neither do I.

It is even worse off to consider a verse as NOT TRUE simply because it does not agree with my opinion.

 

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

In verse 20 "for since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead." 

REALLY?  So my three nieces who were educated as atheists by my sister, will be judged severely by God, for believing their professors who explained the stars and invisible forces in scientific terms, completely negating the existence of an eternal "GOD" who created everything.  Seems rather harsh to blame my nieces for their education.

If God were to judge your nieces on the basis you provide for God, then it would be harsh. But how would you know how our God of love (agape) will deal with your nieces? His thoughts are not your thoughts, remember?

[Samie]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

No Samie,

We are NOT "in Christ" BEFORE we believe and open our heart to Him.

You are saying that while people are APART from Christ they can believe and open their hearts. And just like in our previous encounters on this before, you were not able to satisfactorily explain how those apart from Christ can do SOMETHING, when Christ has said they can do NOTHING.  Is John 15:5 also among your list of NOT true verses?

And also, your position that people start out life already lost, goes against Christ's teaching on the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin and lost son.  Before the sheep got lost, it was with its shepherd; before the coin was lost, it was with its owner; before the son went lost, he was with his father. So with us. We start life NOT lost. And to be NOT lost is to be in Christ.

Your teaching that people start out spiritually dead is diametrically opposed to Paul's emphatic declaration that he was first spiritually alive and then die (Rom 7:9).

Plenty of verses in Sriptures for my position, Rachel. Not just one.

[Samie]

38 minutes ago, phkrause said:

Samie, I have to agree with 8thdaypriest on this point. Personally I believe that Paul is talking about believers here!

I don't know if I understand you here, phkrause. How would Paul be talking about believers in Rom 1:19 when the succeeding verses clearly show Paul was talking about those who don't and refuse to believe in God?

[Samie]

8 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Romans 16:7 “Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.”

CJB Romans 16:7 Greetings to Andronicus and Junia, relatives of mine who were in prison with me. They are well known among the emissaries; also they came to trust in the Messiah before I did.
NLT Romans 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews, who were in prison with me. They are highly respected among the apostles and became followers of Christ before I did.

 

[Samie]

9 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I'm going to refer any folks following this thread to a study I posted on my website, "The Book of Life - A Challenge".  This is the study I wrote after debating for weeks with you.

I just don't feel there is anything to be gained by repeating the same arguments over and over and over.

I agree.

And that's why I presented new evidence from Scriptures relative to my position that people are born in Christ:

1.  God implemented the plan of salvation He devised before the foundation of the world (2 Tim 1:8-10) by saving Adam through Christ (Acts 4:12) the same day he fell into sin and reinstated him to his pre-fall spiritual status, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8).  With Adam in Christ, all his descendants are born in Christ.

2.  Christ Himself taught in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin and lost son (Luke 15), that people don't start life already lost. Before the sheep got lost, it was with its shepherd; before the coin was lost, it was with its owner; before the son went lost, he was with his father. So with us all. We don't start life already lost. And to be not lost is to be in Christ.

3. The apostle Paul said he was first spiritually alive and then die because of sin (see Rom 7:9).

Born in Christ Who is their life (Col. 3:4) and Strength (Phil 4:13), people have His power to overcome evil with good.

This explains why in the gospel that Christ preached, He commanded people to repent (Mark 1:14, 15); that is the same command God issued in the OT (Ezek 18:30); the same command to repent God now wants all men everywhere to do (Acts 17:30).  And the gospel that Christ preached is the gospel He wanted preached to the world before He comes again to reward every man according to what each has done (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12).  The Savior declares: Repent or perish (Luke 13:3, 5).

Repentance is change of mind for what is good. Instead of doing evil, do good. IOW, overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21). Christ has assured that overcomers will NOT be blotted out from the book of life and will be seated with Him in His throne even as He also overcame and sat down with the Father in His throne (Rev. 3:5, 21).  All NOT blotted out will be allowed entry to heaven (Rev 21:27); all blotted out will have their portion in the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).