Something Sounds a Little Wrong

[Stan]

If there was going to be another Seminary, and only IF, I would think it would be better off outside of the USA because of those nasty visa problems and the extra expense of living there...

[Gregory Matthews]

That has been an issue of discussion for several decades. The General Conference has generally opposed it, or it would have happened.

[Michelle]

Okay, I can see Stan's point--knowing the visa restrictions and financial strain of getting to the US from "out there" it would make sense to have another seminary elsewhere. Wonder why they haven't done so? Greg, do you know why the GC would oppose an outside the US seminary?

M

[Gregory Matthews]

I miss-communicated.

The GC has opposed a Seminary at Loma Linda.

We do have several Seminaries in other countries. The one in Russia is probably the best known one.

Others include:

The Chech Republic

Croatia

Bangladesh

Angola

Philippines*

Cuba

South Korea*

Africa (Several)

Sri Lanka

Brazil*

Pakistan

Germany*

Myanmar

Netherlands

Singapore

Sweden

Tanzania

NOTES: Those listed with a (*) are well recognized and somewhat equivalent to our Seminary at Andrews. Other listings are include schools that are college-level, and even Jr. College level, but they meet the needs of the countries that they serve.

[Stan]

How does a Seminary differ from a regular University that grants Phd's in somekind of Religious Studies?

[Gregory Matthews]

Unless otherwise staed, my response will be limited to the situation in North America.

Seminaries, in general terms, train people to minister in congregations, and graduate schools of religion train people to work in other settings, such as teaching on the graduate level (or even secondary and college). As a result, they typically issue two differing types of degrees.

The degrees typically related to congregational ministry include the MDiv (Master of Divinity) and the DMin (Doctor of Ministry). In the context of clergy today, the MDiv. is considered the minimumn degree required to enter the profession--parish ministry, chaplaincy, Federal/State government employment. NOTE: Each (e.g. chaplaincy) will typically have other training/education requirements.

Degrees from graduate schools, and requirements for teaching include: Master of Theology, and higher degrees. NOTE: The Master of Theology is a higher degree than is the typical MA degree.

To have credibility, Seminaries in North America will need to be accredited by the AATS (American Association of Theological Schools).

The standard MDiv. program is a three standard year program, whicn in some settings can be completed in 24 months. Andrews has changed it MDiv. program from what it was when I was working on mine. But, in any case, the MDiv. degree is a combination of academic study, and experience in the acutal parish work. Presently, at Andrews, the typical MDiv. student will do some rotating between Andrews, and work back in the sponsoring Conference. However, I think that they have a modified program for some who are better served by a modified program.

I completed my work in the MDiv. in 29 continueous months, with the experiential part of it obtained in the local Conference in which Andrews is located.

[John317]

Niels-Erik Andreasen was one of my favorite teachers in college. I took several classes-- Greek, Bible Doctrines, Life and Teachings of Jesus, O.T. Prophets, etc.-- from him at PUC as well as at LLU. I found him to be always very gracious and helpful. He's one of our best Hebrew scholars. I've nothing but respect, admiration, and affection for him and wish him the very best.

I'll always remember his striking illustration of God being something like a boxer who steps into the ring and simply allows His enemy to pummel Him with his fists until he finally collapses and admits to everyone that he's lost the battle against a better man.

[Nicodema]

Quote:

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John317 said:

I'll always remember his striking illustration of God being something like a boxer who steps into the ring and simply allows His enemy to pummel Him with his fists until he finally collapses and admits to everyone that he's lost the battle against a better man.

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I assume the "he" that collapses is the pummelling enemy ... not God ... right? Otherwise the ending of the story makes no sense!

[Jeannieb43]

Who is Gerald Karst?

What is his pedigree?

All I know is that he's the chairman of the board of Andrews University.

I also know [i've spoken personally with a vice-president at Andrews who (so far, at least) has not been asked to resign] that Gerald Karst committed a totally unethical and immoral act. He on his own, accompanied by his assistant, decided that the University would be better off without Dr. Andreasen -- and it was he who [without board knowledge or approval] went to Dr. Andreasen during the lunch hour of the March 6 board meeting and asked for the President's resignation! This was done totally improperly. Furthermore, when those two returned to the meeting in the afternoon [without admitting their action to the board members], and when Dr. A. did [as Karst had asked him to do] submit his resignation, the board WAS totally shocked and surprised! The board voted to ask Dr. A. to reconsider -- but what did Karst and his cohort do, but state [totally falsely] that Dr. Andreasen will NOT reconsider!

This was done totally by the board chairman, on his own, and without board knowledge or approval.

Then, the board members [many of whom were in tears, as was much of the faculty and staff] found out about this the next day. The board then conducted a telephone conference, and demanded a recall of the board for another in-person meeting. It was at this second in-person meeting of the board that the recent action was taken, to ask Dr. Andreasen to stay till the end of this school year.

The word about Loma Linda University is that it plans to ask Dr. Andreasen to join the administration of LLU as dean of the theology faculty there. [There is a Theology Dept at LLU already.]

The foregoing is news.

Now for my editorial comment.

The AU Board should demand Gerald Karst's removal as board chair.

[Michelle]

Gregory--thanks for the clarification. I was really scratching my head, because the first thing that popped into my head was Russia, followed by Philippines and Korea, but then I thought, maybe I was misinformed. I have a friend at the seminary in Russia.

M

[Gregory Matthews]

I am alwlays glad to clairfy, as I sometimes am misunderstood, or do not say it very well.

[Gregory Matthews]

Yes, it is possible to get a graduate degree in Religion at LLU, but not the MDiv.

My gues is that this will increase the probability that LLU will move toward a Seminary program.

[Bravus]

Thanks for that, Jeannie. That account actually makes all the facts line up - and Dr Andreassen clearly was being very precise and very discrete when he outlined the course of events.

Wow, glad I'm not an Andrews faculty member right now...

[Stan]

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Jeannieb43 said:

Who is Gerald Karst?

What is his pedigree?

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Gerry is a friend of mine. He is a VP of the GC. I have always looked up to him as a man of high integrity. He does not do knee jerk reactions and I am sure this is part of a bigger strategy.

He was the President of the our Middle East Collage when it was decided to close and evacuate. He has been a VP there for several years.

I do not know what happened, my experience with Gerry is that the Lord was leading. I do not know how he is leading, but am sure he is.

[darlene]

I also know Gerry Karst. He has always been a man of great integrity. If the above account is accurate it would be a great shock to me. In my estimation he is and has always been a true man of God.

[Jeannieb43]

Well, all I know is that the administration had come in with its revised budget as requested by the board, and the revised budget showed a slashing of some programs and staff in order to meet the goal of a $1.5m profit [sounds like an unreasonable goal to me -- when does a university ever make that kind of profit?! ], and the board meeting was proceeding on schedule. There had been no vote of ANY type against Dr. Andreasen -- only to ask the two VPs to resign at the end of the year [naturally, the financial VP would have been held to account, and the curriculum VP would have been resisting cutting all those programs....] but there had been NO sense on the part of the board members that Dr. A. was doing anything at all but what was totally best for the university.

Now come Karst and his sidekick [name of the Asst. Chmn. has not been revealed to me, not because it's a secret, just wasn't included when we spoke], and totally on their own, without support of any portion of the board, pull this trick. If they'd had such good reasons, why didn't they go through proper channels and present those reasons to the board for a vote? If you ask me, Karst has committed a crime.

Dr. Faehner has spoken with me [i'm one of the "friends" on whom he is calling, as referred to by Dr. Andreasen in his speech] and told me that when the word got out on campus about this lying by Karst the campus went ballistic. [it cannot be called anything else; it was a lie to fail to reveal to the board that Andreasen's resignation was instigated by Karst. And it was a lie to tell the board members that "Dr. Andreasen won't reconsider" when Dr. A. had not even been asked to reconsider.]

All I can say is, being called of God to labor in His vineyard does not confer infallibility. Karst must feel he knows better than anybody else how to operate Andrews University -- which IMHO will prove to be wrong. He'll have to answer for that action in the judgment.

[Michelle]

I've forwarded all this to my DH, and we've been discussing what has been posted. If it was indeed David Faehner who told Jeannie everything that happened/didn't happen in the board meeting, this is very out of character for him. My DH knows him, and Dr. F is very well known for keeping his own counsel and keeping his nose clean. Why would he want to jeopardize his own job?

If he told Jeannie this information in confidence as to a friend (perhaps they are friends--I know she said she was friends with Dr. A, perhaps with Dr. F as well? I don't know), perhaps Jeannie has jeopardized his job by posting confidential information here at C/A.

Unless the VP that Jeannie first mentioned talking with was NOT Dr. F, in which case the second post should make clear that he ONLY told her the mood on campus (which would be understandable no matter how Dr. A was asked to resign), not the inside workings of the board.

My DH is just having a really hard time imagining Dave Faehner telling a "friend" of the university (meaning a donor, of course) what happened in the board that day. Stranger thing have happened, though . . . .

M

[Stan]

I would imagine this action was taken in 'executive session'

http://www.andrews.edu/news/2006/3/board_briefing.html

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As it had during its October board meeting, the board went into an executive session (an executive session of the board includes only its non-university members) to more carefully review these plans and to discuss how the university and its administration had been developing and implementing changes for the future.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

[cricket]

Michelle,

As a reader who knows not you, nor your DH, nor Jeannie nor Dr. A nor Dr. F, how am I supposed to know who is who's friend or not?

Since your DH claims to be a good friend of Dr. F, why doesn't he just call him and get the matter straightened out?

Just thoughts...

Chrys

[Michelle]

Chrys--I'll suggest it.

M

[Jeannieb43]

Perhaps I didn't make it clear previously, but everything I was told was already common knowledge on campus by that time. Remember, it was already Friday --four days after the fiasco began-- when I heard the official story. There were no "tales told out of school" by anyone.

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Moral of the Story: One cannot summarily fire a popular university president without expecting the true facts to leak out.

[Stan]

What does DH stand for??

[bevin]

Dear Husband

Dumb Hubby

/Bevin

[Gregory Matthews]

=56&tx_ttnews[backPid]=1&amp...Hash=a0b970f030

The above link will give you more information on the situation at Andrews, as reported by ADVENTIST TODAY.

[John317]

Quote:

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Nicodema said:

Quote:

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John317 said:

I'll always remember his striking illustration of God being something like a boxer who steps into the ring and simply allows His enemy to pummel Him with his fists until he finally collapses and admits to everyone that he's lost the battle against a better man.

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I assume the "he" that collapses is the pummelling enemy ... not God ... right? Otherwise the ending of the story makes no sense!

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You got that straight.

Please notice that all of the pronouns for God are capitalized, whereas the pronouns for God's enemy are all small case. That was not accidental. As you might guess, it was done so as to keep from having to repeat the word "enemy" three too many times.

Let's see how it goes, and if you like it better, with the noun in place of the pronoun, thus: "...with the enemy's fists until the enemy finally collapses and admits to everyone that the enemy lost the battle..."

Now which way do you suppose Professor Andreasen told the story?