15 Passenger Vans Banned

[lazarus]

 

One of the churches I used to pastor had a 12 seater and a 15 seater. As the youth pastor I used to drive then often. This was in the early 2000's. We were very nervous about driving the 15 seater because it was noticeably unstable over about 40mph. The risk with those vans was roll over. I really had to concentrate when driving the van because you could feel the instability of the vehicle especially at speed and when the van was full of passengers. When I arrived at destination my prayer was often my heartfelt than usual. 

Around 2004 we had instructions that the NAD would no longer insure 15 seaters so the work around was to take out 3 seats to make it 12 seats. This did help since the instability seemed to be greater a full capacity but my guess is that solution was not a TSA suggestion.

I was told that the NAD did not ban them at the time because there would have been a lot of churches without transport and also the TSA had not banned them. The suggestion was to sell them as soon as possible and replace with 12 seater or what is called a "turtle bus". 

I got a sense at that time that the safety of church members and church workers was being compromised so as to avoid the financial implications. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Green said in my quote below:

Frankly, I have some agreement with Green on this one. While I do believe that the protection of the denomination is required, I also think that there are some changes in denominational policy and practice that could be made while at the same time protecting the denomination. But, I would like to raise a point:

1) It must be acknowledged that a person going door to door selling our publications will be perceived b y the public as officially representating the denomination.

2) I am personally aquainted with a person who within days of being released from serving a prison sentence for sexually molesting two females ages 6 and 9 years, was going door to door selling SDA books.

3) That can not be allowed and it was immediately stopped as soon as the local Conference was notified.

I have more than once found the church to exercise unholy "caution."  I say "unholy" because I don't know what else to call it.  Examples include not allowing any independent literature evangelist to enroll and purchase their books via Pacific Press until the LE has a bigger insurance policy than the Conference.  This put a stop to the LE work in my conference, and the department was closed for over a decade. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Lazarus said in my post below: The design flaw was inherent in the build of that vehicle. It did not depend upon either the number of seats or the number of people sitting in the vehicle. Absolutely correct that doing such would not result in the vehicle becoming safe. Current NAD policy prohibits such.

Around 2004 we had instructions that the NAD would no longer insure 15 seaters so the work around was to take out 3 seats to make it 12 seats. This did help since the instability seemed to be greater a full capacity but my guess is that solution was not a TSA suggestion

[Tom Wetmore]

12 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

Because the church does not have members in possession of a CDL (commercial drivers license), a 15-passenger van is the only practical solution.  Again, it is a shame for the church to prohibit such.

The replacement vehicle that has been recommended ever since the NAD policy recommended to stop using the vans is a properly designed small 15 passenger bus that does not require a CDL driver. (It is the number of passengers that dictates CDL requirement) It has a lower center of gravity, wider and longer wheel base (real axle with dual wheels positioned closer to back), far better load/weight distribution, and improved suspension and handling. The passenger compartment is taller with center aisle allowing for safer entry and exit without having to crouch.  I have driven both a 15 passenger van and a 15 passenger bus.  There is no question that the latter is a substantial improvement.  Under otherwise normal driving conditions the vans are noticeably unstable and poorly balanced. In an emergency maneuver (hard braking, slippery conditions or swerving to avoid obstacle, etc.) they are hard to control.  It is even noticeable on a normal 90 degree turn at relatively slow speed when fully loaded.

The cost of insurance for them is very high, driven largely by multi-million dollar judgments from crashes that result in multiple deaths and or sever permanent injury.  

Arguing against this is quite simply foolish.  

[Gregory Matthews]

Further clarification and comment on CDL licenses:

Federal law governs across the United States uniform requirements for a CDL and the respective endorsements that may be required for such licenses.  Regardless, there are some variations, mostly in minor ways, that are allowed for the individual States to make.

In general, there are three types of a CDL:

Class A

Class B

Class C.

Class A & B involved  types of large trucks.  A Class C CDL includes passenger and school bus vehicle endorsements.

A class C CDL with both a Passenger and a School Bus endorsement will be required If the vehicle that is being driven is built to carry 16, or more persons.  If the   vehicle is not built to carry 16 or more persons, a CDL is not required.

Folks that is the Federal law in the United States.  While there are minor differences among the States, in the major details that are all the same.  The above in a uniform requirement that exists under Federal law.

It is not difficult for a person to obtain a Class C CDL with a P & S endorsement.  Those major requirements relate to:  a) driving record. 'b) health, c) ability to assist children in loading and leaving the bus.  d) age of driver,  e) knowledge of applicable law that is specific to carrying passengers and children and finally f) proper insurance coverage. 

Folks, the requirements are reasonable and not difficult for people to meet.  They must be met be  our denominational organizations.  It is foolish to argue otherwise.

 

 

 

 

[Green Cochoa]

Commercial tractor/trailer trucks are considered "combination vehicles" and are Class A.

Most buses come under Class B CDL, with passenger and/or school endorsements.

A Class C may get you by with driving a large passenger van, or if you have a small truck towing a trailer, or whatever else.

[Gregory Matthews]

Green, for the type of vehicle that we are talking about a Class C CDL with a P & S endorsement will satisfy the requirement under both Federal and California law.

 

 

 

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

The following is true for the Sate of California and is in compliance with he Federal requirements.

"

Class A CDL

A Class A commercial driver's license is required to operate any combination of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating (GCWR) of 26,001 lbs. or more, to include a towed vehicle that is HEAVIER than 10,000 lbs.

While your towing allowances will depend on which endorsements you obtain, a few of the vehicles you MAY be able to drive with a Class A CDL (with proper endorsements) include:

• Tractor-trailers.
• Truck and trailer combinations.
  • Double and triple trailers.
• Tractor-trailer buses.
• Tanker vehicles.
• Livestock carriers.
• Flatbeds.

In addition, a Class A license may allow you to drive some Class B and Class C vehicles as long as you possess the correct endorsements.

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Class B CDL

A Class B commercial driver license is required to operate:

• A single vehicle with a GVWR of 26,001 lbs. or heavier.
  AND/OR
• Any vehicle as described above that is towing another vehicle weighing UP TO 10,000 lbs.

As with Class A licenses, you may be required to possess specific endorsements to operate some vehicles with a Class B license. Some of the vehicles you may be allowed to operate (with the right endorsement) include:

• Straight trucks.
• Large buses, including:
  • City buses.
  • Tourist buses.
  • School buses.
• Segmented buses.
• Box trucks, such as:
  • Delivery drivers.
  • Couriers.
  • Furniture delivery.
• Dump trucks with small trailers.

In addition, a Class B license may allow you to operate some Class C vehicles if you possess the correct endorsements. For more information, visit our guide to CDL endorsements.

Class C CDL

A Class C commercial driver's license may be required if:

• The vehicle you intend to drive does not meet the criteria described for either a Class A or Class B license.
  AND
• Is meant to transport EITHER:
  • At least 16 passengers (to include you, the driver).
    OR
  • Hazardous material (HAZMAT) as laid out by federal guidelines.

Examples of vehicles you might be able to operate with a Class C CDL (with proper endorsement) include:

• Small HAZMAT vehicles.
• Passenger vans.
• Combination vehicles not described in class A or B.
  • EXAMPLE: A small truck towing a trailer"

 

 

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Here is the bottom line:

A large school bus requires a Class B CDL license.

A small school bus of the type that we  have been talking about only requires a Class C CDL.

 

Both may require P & S endorsements.

 

[Green Cochoa]

7 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Green, for the type of vehicle that we are talking about a Class C CDL with a P & S endorsement will satisfy the requirement under both Federal and California law.

I expect that's true.  The advantage with a 15-passenger van was that no CDL was required.  Nowadays, a CDL is far from simple to obtain.  Nor is it cheap.  At least not where I'm from.  And that's, again, why this is largely about the $$$.  For the church, insurance $$$. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Green, Class A and B CDL Licenses cost more than a  Class C CDL.

Further a higher cost is charged for people who are transporting MORE than 15 people.

Green, the cost for a Class C DCL with a P & S endorsement will vary from State to State.  But, for the  type of transport that we are talking about, a school buss with a small number of passengers, the cost is not that much.  Yes, ifou are transporting 25 people in the school  bus, it will be much higher.

 

[lazarus]

18 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

  And that's, again, why this is largely about the $$$.  For the church, insurance $$$. 

Yes. 

Back in 2003 we were looking at 35 k for the best alternative to our 15 seater. Sad to say the finance committee voted to keep driving the 15 seater for a while. 

[Gregory Matthews]

The cost of automotive insurance depends upon the driving record of the driver, the vehicle driven, the miles driven, the purposes for which the vehicle were driven and more.