Believing: Is it done BEFORE or AFTER one is In Christ?

[Samie]

Majority of Christian preachers teach BEFORE.

I believe that to teach such is to teach against what Christ Himself taught. Our Savior told His disciples that APART from Him they can do NOTHING (John 15:5).  So, if one can BELIEVE, then he can do SOMETHING instead of NOTHING and that simply proves he is already in Christ PRIOR to believing. Hence, only those already in Christ can believe.

Some thoughts forum mates?

[Samie]

Quite difficult to handle?  Any doctrine or teaching need to pass the test of Scriptures.  And the teaching that people need to first believe to be in Christ seem not able to.  Yet this is what most preachers teach.

[8thdaypriest]

Here's a link to a study on my website, which I wrote based on my very long discussion with Samie on this topic, on another thread. 

http://prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/Book Chapters/1-BOOK OF LIFE -Challenge.pdf

This link is the ONLY thing I will post on this thread.

[Samie]

To teach that people MUST first believe so they can be in Christ is to teach:

1.  That prior to believing people are NOT in Christ.

2.  That while APART from Christ people can BELIEVE and hence can do SOMETHING instead of NOTHING.

3.  That while APART from Christ people already have faith because they can believe.

4.  That unless man first puts into the basket his share of the deal, he could not be in Christ.

All FOUR above-listed are against the teachings of our Saviour and Lord:

1.  If prior to believing people are not in Christ, then people starts life NOT in Christ; and to be NOT in Christ is to be lost and hence people start life already lost.  This is against what Christ Himself taught in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin and lost son.  All three started out NOT lost. Before the sheep got lost it was with its shepherd; before the coin was lost, it was with its owner; before the son went lost, he was with his father.  So with us. We started life NOT lost, and to be NOT lost is to be in Christ.

2. If while APART from Christ people can BELIEVE then they can do SOMETHING instead of NOTHING. This is against what Christ told His disciples that while APART from Him they can do NOTHING.

3.  If while APART from Christ people already have faith because they can believe, then people are able to bear fruit APART from Christ because faith is fruit of the Spirit.  This is against what Christ Himself taught that no one can bear fruit UNLESS the branch is attached to the Vine.

4.  If unless man first puts into the basket his share of the deal, he could not be in Christ, then salvation is works-based.  This is against what Jesus taught that no one can come to Him UNLESS the Father draws him and therefore the credit of being in Christ is the Father's and the Son's and NOT man's.

[Samie]

Because it is God's work FOR man that man is in Christ and that the Father has drawn all to Christ, does that mean that all will make it to heaven and eternal life?  No, sir. How so?

Because only the overcomers will Christ NOT blot out from the book of life (Rev 3:5) and will be seated with Him in His throne even as He Himself also overcame and sat down with the Father in His throne (Rev 3:21).  All not blotted out will be allowed entry into the heavenly portals (Rev 21:27); all blotted out will have their portion in the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).  Hence, Scriptures enjoin people to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21) because when Christ comes again, He will reward each one according to what each has done (Matt 16:27; Rev 21:12).

This is why in the gospel that Christ preached, which is the same gospel He wanted preached to all the world before He comes again, He commanded people to repent (Matt 24:14; Mark 1:14, 15).  The same command God made in the OT (Ezek 18:30).  The same command that God NOW wants all people everywhere to obey (Acts 17:30).

And repentance is change of mind for that which is good.  Instead of doing evil, do good. IOW, overcome evil with good. 

And being in Christ, people are part of His Body, and hence have His power to overcome evil with good. It is therefore not a matter of INABILITY, but rather one of REFUSAL, if one does not overcome evil with good.

[Samie]

Do we then believe to be in Christ? No. Rather we believe that we are already in Christ.

[JoeMo]

I have been following Rachel for many years; and believe her to be one of the finest Bible scholars I have ever met.  One reason is that she and I reached the same conclusions independently after a long lapse in communication.  In a way, we "confirmed" what we believe the Spirit has shown us over the years.  While I agree with Samie that Christ's's Spirit works with all of humanity, Jesus is only in us when we invite Him in.  He does not barge His way into our hearts until we freely accept Him as Lord and Savior and invite Him into our hearts.  We have a choice - to either accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, or live (or die) under the Law.  It is one thing for the Spirit of Christ to speak to our minds - which I believe is the measure of faith that all will be given the opportunity either now or after the millennium to choose between God and satan, nevertheless we must make a free will informed choice to give our loyalty to man/satan or God.  Once we make a choice for God (which really isn't a "work"), our names are written in the book of life.  If we choose to deny Christ (and die with that choice), our names are never written in (or maybe even blotted out of) the book of life.  Free will means we have a choice.  God will not drag us into the kingdom kicking and screaming if we don't choose to give our unconditional loyalty to Him.  Upon doing that, it is not our "work" to be His subjects and ambassadors - it is our honor and privilege.

[phkrause]

6 hours ago, JoeMo said:

While I agree with Samie that Christ's Spirit works with all of humanity, Jesus is only in us when we invite Him in.  He does not barge His way into our hearts until we freely accept Him as Lord and Savior and invite Him into our hearts.  We have a choice - to either accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, or live (or die) under the Law.

With this part of your post I definitely agree with.

There's a statement in the Bible where it says that Christ comes and knocks on our hearts waiting for us to open the door to let him in!

Rev 3:20 Here, I'm standing at the door, knocking. If someone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he will eat with me.

[debbym]

10 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I have been following Rachel for many years; and believe her to be one of the finest Bible scholars I have ever met.  One reason is that she and I reached the same conclusions independently after a long lapse in communication.  In a way, we "confirmed" what we believe the Spirit has shown us over the years.  While I agree with Samie that Christ's's Spirit works with all of humanity, Jesus is only in us when we invite Him in.  He does not barge His way into our hearts until we freely accept Him as Lord and Savior and invite Him into our hearts.  We have a choice - to either accept Jesus as Lord and Savior, or live (or die) under the Law.  It is one thing for the Spirit of Christ to speak to our minds - which I believe is the measure of faith that all will be given the opportunity either now or after the millennium to choose between God and satan, nevertheless we must make a free will informed choice to give our loyalty to man/satan or God.  Once we make a choice for God (which really isn't a "work"), our names are written in the book of life.  If we choose to deny Christ (and die with that choice), our names are never written in (or maybe even blotted out of) the book of life.  Free will means we have a choice.  God will not drag us into the kingdom kicking and screaming if we don't choose to give our unconditional loyalty to Him.  Upon doing that, it is not our "work" to be His subjects and ambassadors - it is our honor and privilege.

Christ is profoundly blessing every human being alive whether they receive Him into their lives in a living relational way or not. Sin is not a barrier to Christ in blessing us because he carried all the sins of the world.  The barrier to receiving more blessings lies with our will.  when our will is turned in selfishness and away from God,'s will for us, he will not violate our will and force any blessings on us.  Christ is drawing us to himself by the cords of His divine humanity, as he sustains every breath and every cell, and washes our very existence with kindness and grace, and mercy.  If we refuse he accepts our decision only after much patience and pleading and labors of love.

We are in His love and care and in his heart and in his mercy before we believe.  when we believe is when we start yielding our life to His will.