SDAs and Christmas

[Gregory Matthews]

See:

http://www.nadadventist.org/article/1073743401/news/stories-commentaries/12-20-16-should-adventists-celebrate-christmas

NOTE:   The above URL contains a link to a Spanish translation.

https://adventistbiblicalresearch.org/es/materials/practical-christian-living/los-cristianos-y-la-navidad

 

[CoAspen]

[Kevin H]

Very good. and even though it did not go into detail as to why and when there were Christians believing that Jesus was conserved on March 25, I'm glad that he touched on the new information.

Oh as to the missing details: Among intertestamental Jewish traditions included some rabbis thinking at a true prophet would die on his birthday. Another was that a true prophet would die on the anniversary not of his birthday but his conception. This got tied together with another tradition to expect good things on Passover and therefore it was Passover that Sarah became conserved with Isaac, and that it was another Passover that Abraham took Isaac to Mt. Moriah. Jews holding to this tradition saw Isaac as conserved on Passover and born 9 months later, which would be around this time of the year.

In 135 AD the Christians separated from Judaism and they became two separate religions rather than being a sect of Judaism. This time was very much like a divorce. People from both sides having mixed emotions, saying things that hurt the other and being hurt by the other. Beliefs they use to hold in common were divided among them. And they would try to one up the other. This was indeed a sad time in the history of God's people and heaven shed many a tear. Among this was some Christians who looked at the above mentioned Jewish traditions. They said that Isaac was just a type of Jesus and that Jesus was the true antitype and greater. That like Isaac, Jesus was conserved on Passover. Like Isaac, Jesus was born 9 months after Isaac. And that Jesus was indeed true because he died on Passover, the anniversary of his conception. And while Isaac needed a substitute, Jesus is better than Isaac because he is the true sacrifice. The Christians who held to this view started celebrating the feast of the dedication every Passover. One year they decided to stop keeping the Jewish calendar and start keeping the Roman. That year the Roman churches celebrated Passover on March 25 and in Greek churches on April 5. Each year there after instead of keeping the feast of the dedication on Passover they kept it every March 25 or April 5.

In the third century Christians started adding 9 months to March 25 or April 5 and got December 25 and January 5. The days that have become Christmas in the western and eastern churches. This occurred 100 years before the time that we use to think December 25 came into the church. It was believed by Christians who were hiding from Pagans in the catacombs.

So by the time of Constantine in the 4th century there were already Christians who held the birth of Jesus be have been on December 25. Of the articles I've read about this (Mostly Bible Review and Bible Archaeology review) some have suggested that while there were different special days through out paganism around the time of the winter solstice, that they did not focus on December 25 as such. But that when the Christians were a legal religion and had December 25 as the birth of Jesus, that then the other pagans moved their days from around that time to December 25. If this is true, then we did not get December 25 from the Pagans but the took it from the Christians.

Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah everyone!!!

[FLO]

Here's an interesting study on this topic:   www.ChristmasTruth.info

Let me know what you guys think. 
 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

2 hours ago, FLO said:

Here's an interesting study on this topic:   www.ChristmasTruth.info

Let me know what you guys think. 
 

I looked over the study.  While I think it was presented with the best of intentions, it really comes across to me as telling people to be afraid, be very afraid, if there is - or was - any connection of paganism to Christmas.  That's not healthy.

The only thing about the holiday season that is blessed by Satan is the commercialization.  - Satan and his minions aren't dancing around for joy because someone has a Christmas tree, gives Christmas gifts, or tells their children about Santa Claus.  He's more than happy when people are fearful and see nothing but evil in celebrating the birth of Christ (it doesn't matter if it's not really His birthdate.)

And by the way, Wiccans do not believe in the devil — they are not devil worshippers.  They are basically tree-huggers, the majority of whom do mere basic Magick, if any at all.  Neither they nor any other pagans are interested in usurping the Christian notion of Christmas or injecting their pagan rituals into Christianity.

If Satan has caused fear in someone of celebrating Christmas, then he is happy.  Don't fall for that malarky. 

 

[Kevin H]

11 hours ago, FLO said:

Here's an interesting study on this topic:   www.ChristmasTruth.info

Let me know what you guys think. 
 

To me it appears that they base their premise on the out dated information where our histories use to teach that December 25 was important to the Pagans and the church embraced it fourth century with the events of Constantine, then go off the far extreme on the paganism.

Today there is evidence that there were Christians who came to December 25 about a hundred years earlier than Constantine. That it came from Jewish traditions about Isaac. And that while different dates around the winter solstice were important to pagans, that there is no real strong attachment among the Pagans to December 25 until Constantine.

We have two attitudes fighting inside our selves. One is our sinful nature, a disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world. To esteem ourselves more than others, to serve self, to seek the highest place. Fighting this is our deepest desire, the desire to want to be like and with Jesus. To love the world as he has loved it.

It appears to me that these people are celebrating their sinful nature by separating themselves from the world around them and to have contempt for those of us who enjoy the time with family and enjoyment of celebrating Jesus' birth even though we have the wrong day.  Someone posted "Pagans worshiped the Sun but we still use it." While we want to be careful to not get sucked into paganism or the consumerism, we need to be careful about screaming "Pagan". When we look at the feasts of the land in the Bible; Passover, Yom Kippur etc. they were the feasts of the pagan Canaanite temples long before Abraham was even born. They were related to the agricultural cycle of that piece of geography. The current evidence is leaning towards us not getting December 25 from the Pagans but from Jewish traditions. However Passover, Yom Kippur etc. even what developed into the Seventh-day Adventist belief in the Investigative Judgment all came from Canaanite paganism.

Finally, around this season we also celebrate Hanukkah. Hanukkah is the one temple feast that did not become a Biblical feast until the New Testament. It is the framework for the story of the raising of Lazarus. The focus on the joy of family and the hope for the reunion with those who are no longer sitting around our holiday table because though he tarry, the one who is the resurrection and the life is going to come and say to our loved ones "Come Forth". It is almost prophetic like if Jesus saw how important this season would be to us and gave us a message for this season to celebrate the family and the joy of the coming resurrection day! If you don't want to celebrate Jesus' birth at this season, then don't climb into your own shell and despise and look down upon but join your family and celebrate the aspects that Jesus added to Hanukkah!

[Charity]

The topic of Christmas is an old one.   So are the various views surrounding it's significance; the opinions about it's origin; whether we Christians should observe it - or not.  My go-to line is "what does God have to say about this?"   Big question especially since He doesn't always talk to us individually - face to face. But does He?

Let's look back on some of the scenes  in the Old Testament that give us a glimpse of what God expects of us.  One that might be familiar to some of us is Jeremiah 7. The scene during that time was a rebuilt temple and restored worship. As the record shows, that Passover service was a service that could not be matched by any other.  In this chapter though Jeremiah gave a Message from God - trust not in lying words saying - the temple of Jehovah the temple of Jehovah the teample of Jehovah are these.  Jeremiah brought a strong Message from God to the people - do not glory in your worship services and fancy temple.   Glory in me.  Glory in serving me.  Glory in loving the way I love.  During that time, the people of Israel were more interested in worship services and rituals and their hearts were not right with God - they did not have love one or another and valued things and rituals more than God and each other.

From the examples I read in the Bible.  God takes no pleasure in sacrifices.  Burnt meat.  Rituals. Beautiful buildings.  Adorned trees in his honor.  He takes pleasure in us.  Our lives - Lived to glorify Him.  

I will take us back to the beginning for my second example - Cain and Able   God gave specific instructions regarding His sacrifice  both Cain and Able came and expected God to approve of their offerings   However  the one who obeyed received a blessing .  Cain was upset. And God asked him - if you doest well, shalt thou not be accepted ...  Cain.  Bringing what he thought was good enough for God and God must accept because he did His best   But God never asked for our best   He asks for our obedience and our trust and our faithfulness.  Nevertheless - since the beginning of time we have been ignoring His instructions and doing our own thing and we expect God to accept because He just must.

So here we are - having skipped over a few centuries and lots of lessons from the Bible - and we have landed in the 21st century.  Technology has changed, knowledge has increased - but humans are still the same - still doing the same things, including ignoring God.  Disobeying Him.  Expecting Him to acquiesce to us because after all - we have free will and God will just have to know His place - which is behind us and our free will.   We can choose to do whatever we want and there is nothing He can do.  

So we haggle over whether we should be celebrating Christmas. Why.  Because we have decided that it is what we do to celebrate God.  He will like it.  And if others disagree too bad.  Or.  We choose not to celebrate Christmas with others because it is not the true birthday of Christ and God just does not agree with this.  I choos to or not to celebrate Christmas.  Done. 

My default is to ask God what He would like me to do.  I know He does not delight in rituals and such.  I know He delights in who I am and how I obey Him.  He gave me instructions to seek first Him. To call on Him at all times. To love as He loves.  To be selfless - to think of others before me.  To live as Christ lives - not by my strength but by the strength of God.  I don't need a day to celebrate Christs bday especially since there are no records that tell me specifically when He was born or when He died, for that matter. But there are many records of how He wants me to live. I celebrate His life every day and pray that His Holy Spirit will live in me and transform me into His likeness so that I can hear that well done thou good and faithful servant.   Not only to here it. But to humbly be that servant who obeys the will of God with a right heart  

Christmas is not important.  Easter isn't.  The Sabbath isn't.  Christ - God - the Holy Spirit - me - we are important.  As Christ said. He and God are one.  And others will know that we are His if we have love one for another. If we abide in Him and He abides in us.  If we are obedient to Him.  We belong to Him and to the Father.  

Yes. We could use Christmas to get together with family.  Friends.  Feed the hungry.  Clothe the naked. House the homeless.  Then  take time out for the rest of the year then do it again next Christmas- after all it's the birthday of Christ and it's a good way to celebrate. Since I use the Bible as my guide - whatever God wants to institute in terms of worshiping Him - He is specific about it - do this and do it this way - it is never left up to us to figure out what to institute and how to institute it.  He Instituted the Sabbath. Passover.  The sacrificial system.  Tithing. The feet washing service. Baptism.  The priesthood.  When David wanted to build Him a temple He told David when and who.  He doesn't seem to leave it unclear as to what He wants. 

So - does God want us to celebrate His Son's birth - sure.  Every day!!! That is why I believe He did not tell us when and did not tell us how to but left us His life as an example for us to walk in His footsteps.  To celebrate all of Christ   

May God bless us all as we seek Him and His truth.  May He save us all by His Grace. May we be smart and humble enough to know that God does not need our worship. But that He loves our worship when we worship Him in Spirit and His Truth.  

[Dave Watchman]

Let every heart prepare Him room.

And heaven and nature sing.

 

I'm glad Christmas is over. Every time I logged in here the theme switched to the "Christmas" version, so the first thing that I had to do is to put it back to the default. I'm the Grinch who wants to steal Christmas, and Easter and Halloween too. But I'll take a day off or a long weekend whenever they give me one while in Rome.

 

And I know that it's tough but I have steadily steered myself over the years away from the traditional "Christmas". No lights, no trees, no special food or drink. I don't think that I can recall Jesus ever celebrating a birthday. Does anyone ever recall Jesus celebrating a birthday? His mother's? His Father's? Sorry, not funny. I just think that we should try to steer away from all of this pagan stuff whenever we can and to follow the Lamb wherever He goes.

 

On 12/23/2016 at 3:35 PM, FLO said:

Here's an interesting study on this topic:   www.ChristmasTruth.info

Let me know what you guys think. 

 

I did read your study Flo, I think that you did a good job on it. I downloaded the PDF as it played better on my PC. But you must know that this subject is not going to win a popularity contest at this time of year any more so than preaching the Seventh Day Sabbath would with an audience full of Catholics.

 

From your note:

 

Quote

It is only sinners (like Pharaoh and Herod) who make great
rejoicings over the day on which they were born into this world
below" (Origen, in Levit., Hom. VIII, in Migne P.G., XII, 495)."
- Natal Day, Catholic Encyclopedia,
(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10709a.htm)

 

"The day [Christmas] was not one of the early feasts of the
Christian church. In fact the observance of birthdays was
condemned as a heathen custom repugnant to Christians"
- The American Book of Days, George W. Douglas, p. 658.
 Once again, there is no record of Jesus, the apostles or even
the early Christian church ever celebrating such an event.
 What is even more interesting is that the mere observance
of birthdays in general was considered a heathen custom.

 

And then I found this:

 

Imagine that between 1933-45, the Nazi regime celebrated Adolf Hitler’s birthday – April 20 – as a holiday.  Imagine that they named the day, “Hitlerday,” and observed the day with feasting, drunkenness, gift-giving, and various pagan practices.

 

Many of the most popular Christmas customs – including Christmas trees, mistletoe, Christmas presents, and Santa Claus – are modern incarnations of the most depraved pagan rituals ever practiced on earth.

Many who are excitedly preparing for their Christmas celebrations would prefer not knowing about the holiday’s real significance.  If they do know the history, they often object that their celebration has nothing to do with the holiday’s monstrous history and meaning.  “We are just having fun.”

II.     How Did Christmas Come to Be Celebrated on December 25?

A.    Roman pagans first introduced the holiday of Saturnalia, a week long period of lawlessness celebrated between December 17-25.  During this period, Roman courts were closed, and Roman law dictated that no one could be punished for damaging property or injuring people during the weeklong celebration.  The festival began when Roman authorities chose “an enemy of the Roman people” to represent the “Lord of Misrule.”  Each Roman community selected a victim whom they forced to indulge in food and other physical pleasures throughout the week.  At the festival’s conclusion, December 25^th, Roman authorities believed they were destroying the forces of darkness by brutally murdering this innocent man or woman.

B.    The ancient Greek writer poet and historian Lucian (in his dialogue entitled Saturnalia) describes the festival’s observance in his time.  In addition to human sacrifice, he mentions these customs: widespread intoxication; going from house to house while singing naked; rape and other sexual license; and consuming human-shaped biscuits (still produced in some English and most German bakeries during the Christmas season).

C.    In the 4^th century CE, Christianity imported the Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it.  Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians.[2]

D.    The problem was that there was nothing intrinsically Christian about Saturnalia. To remedy this, these Christian leaders named Saturnalia’s concluding day, December 25^th, to be Jesus’ birthday.

E.      Christians had little success, however, refining the practices of Saturnalia.  As Stephen Nissenbaum, professor history at the University of Massachussetts, Amherst, writes, “In return for ensuring massive observance of the anniversary of the Savior’s birth by assigning it to this resonant date, the Church for its part tacitly agreed to allow the holiday to be celebrated more or less the way it had always been.”  The earliest Christmas holidays were celebrated by drinking, sexual indulgence, singing naked in the streets (a precursor of modern caroling), etc.

F.      The Reverend Increase Mather of Boston observed in 1687 that “the early Christians who  first observed the Nativity on December 25 did not do so thinking that Christ was born in that Month, but because the Heathens’ Saturnalia was at that time kept in Rome, and they were willing to have those Pagan Holidays metamorphosed into Christian ones.”[3]  Because of its known pagan origin, Christmas was banned by the Puritans and its observance was illegal in Massachusetts between 1659 and 1681.[4]  However, Christmas was and still is celebrated by most Christians.

G.    Some of the most depraved customs of the Saturnalia carnival were intentionally revived by the Catholic Church in 1466 when Pope Paul II, for the amusement of his Roman citizens, forced Jews to race naked through the streets of the city.  An eyewitness account reports, “Before they were to run, the Jews were richly fed, so as to make the race more difficult for them and at the same time more amusing for spectators.  They ran… amid Rome’s taunting shrieks and peals of laughter, while the Holy Father stood upon a richly ornamented balcony and laughed heartily.”[5]

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/Christmas_TheRealStory.htm

 

So it's not too hard to get to the truth of the matter, if one really want's to. But one source of holiday enjoyment that I have come to find now are all of the excellent Bible based Christian Hymns used at this time of the year. A preacher on the morning radio just finished a great study on some of them. This one by Isaac Watts was based on the second half of Psalm 98. But Isaac was not writing about our Savior's first or second visitation, he might not have realized it but he was writing about our Lord's final coming at the end of the thousand years of Revelation 20.

Joy to the World

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

	"Joy to the World"   Menu     0:00   An a cappella performance by Kim Butler and others
Problems playing this file? See media help.

 

"Joy to the World" is a popular Christmas carol.^[1] The words are by English hymn writer Isaac Watts, based on the second half of Psalm 98 in the Bible. The song was first published in 1719 in Watts' collection; The Psalms of David: Imitated in the language of the New Testament, and applied to the Christian state and worship.

 

Watts wrote the words of "Joy to the World" as a hymn glorifying Christ's triumphant return at the end of the age, rather than a song celebrating his first coming.^[2]The nations are called to celebrate because God's faithfulness to the house of Israel has brought salvation to the world.^[3]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joy_to_the_World

As of the late 20th century, "Joy to the World" was the most-published Christmas hymn in North America.^[1]

 

So since  Watts wrote his Hymn about a future coming, I can be comfortable listening to this all year long and while I'm working around the yard in the summer time. I don't have to store it in a box and unpack it for "Christ's Mass" or any of the other trappings of Popery.      

 

I liked the little guy in the video hitching a ride across the river on the cows back, they look like the best of friends.

 

 

 

 

Joy to the World

Joy to The world! the Lord is come
Let earth receive her King
Let every heart prepare Him room
And heaven and nature sing
And heaven and nature sing
And heaven and nature sing

Joy to the world! the Savior reigns
Let men their songs employ
While fields and floods, rocks, hills and plains
Repeat the sounding joy
Repeat the sounding joy
Repeat the sounding joy

He rules the world with truth and grace
And makes the nations prove The glories of His righteousness
And wonders of His love
And wonders of His love
And wonder wonders of His love

 

[Dave Watchman]

On 12/24/2016 at 0:46 PM, Charity said:

Christmas is not important.  

Easter isn't.  

The Sabbath isn't.

The Sabbath isn't?

You were doing so good and making a most excellent note until you got to this point.

We are not the woman from Revelation 12 anymore. We are the offspring of the woman who keep the Commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus.

"Remember the Sabbath-day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God; in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day; wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath-day and hallowed it.

Exod 20: 8-11.

We follow the Lamb wherever He goes.

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

There is much that we do that can be traced to similar activities being done by Pagans and other non-Christians:

*  Each of the days in the 365 day year celebrates the birthday of multiple Hindu gods and goddesses.

*  Baptism clearly had a pre-Christian background.

*  Elements of the worship system given to Israel as they left Egypt can be associated with pagan Egyptian worship.

*  Each of the named days of our week celebrates a pagan god.

*  While it may be true that some can associate elements of Christmas with pagan worship, it is also true that some such associations have been challenged it has been alleged that some such developed separately from that of pagan practices.

Let us look as the logic:

1)  Paganism during time X did Y.

2)  Christianity during time Z did P.

3)  Time X predates time Z.

4)  Therefore, P grew out of an association with Y.

Nonsense!  Even if the first three (3) are true, that does not mean that # 4 is true.  Common, basic logic.  Number 4 still needs to be proved.

 

 

[Dave Watchman]

35 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Let us look as the logic:

1)  Paganism during time X did Y.

2)  Christianity during time Z did P.

3)  Time X predates time Z.

4)  Therefore, P grew out of an association with Y.

That's too complicated for me Gregory.

How about this:

"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

 

[Stan]

@Dave Watchman  you will be pleased to know, and am sure you have seen it, we have a new theme.

[Dave Watchman]

23 hours ago, Stan said:

@Dave Watchman  you will be pleased to know, and am sure you have seen it, we have a new theme.

That's very nice Stan. I always just liked the original one with the bistro chairs. It looked comfortable and had a welcoming feel to it.

[Charity]

Dave.  I'm sure you understand.  We can do the Sabbath from now to eternity and not be at peace with God or literally at rest in Christ.  Jesus says to rest in Him.  Come to me.  I will give you rest; rest for your souls. We rest on the Sabbath day.  And we rest in Christ.  Once we have that abiding/lasting/faithful/Holy Soirit secured faith in Christ we have that rest. In Christ and Christ alone.  Every day of the week for the rest of our lives. That's when we will also have true obedience. To God.  His laws will be written in our hearts.  We will not try to keep them and fail.  Since the mind of God is now in us  (let this mind be in you which was also in Christ. Phillip. 2:).  Obeying the command to rest on the Sabbath won't be done religiously it will be done faithfully with faith.  Because of the constant filling of God's Holy Spirit - daily  

Obversibg the Sabbath - God's commands must be from the inside.  Not from the outside.   True obedience is from the inside.  Where God dwells and changes us from the inside out.  

The rest that we have in Christ is complete.  It's that peace that passes all understanding.  It is multifaceted and encompasses all aspects of our being.  It's the peace that  makes us love as Christ loves.  Hope with His  assurance. Live as Christ lives.  Everyday in the love of the Father.  Without fear because God is with us and we know it.  

Although the peace is complete in Christ.  We are still in a sinful world.  And still affected by everything that brings.  We'll still be sad.  Cry.  Hurt. But we will not despair.  We live in peace with God until Christ returns with His reward of Eternal life either Him on a world freed from sin.  That peace is the ultimate peace.  No more pain. Sorrow.  Tears.  Sin.  Total and absolute peace.   Until then.  We endure to the end.  We are unbreakable because God's Holy Spirit fills us daily with the abiding faith of Christ.