newadventures Posted January 6, 2017 Posted January 6, 2017 Has anyone else struggled with understanding some of the many murders and injustices depicted in the Bible? This year, I made a resolution to study the Bible more, not just the more "popular" passages I've already read, but parts that I may have missed or not read in detail. Recently, though, I've become confused after reading a lot of stuff that I didn't even know was in the Bible, some of it which seemed to directly conflict with my basic sense of human ethics, like this article shows: http://see_the_truth.webs.com/YHVH_Murderer.htm I was wondering if anyone else has read of these things, or been confused by them? I wanted to see others' opinions; ultimately I will research with an open mind to find the truth, whatever it may be. Quote
Members phkrause Posted January 7, 2017 Members Posted January 7, 2017 When I read something in the Bible that I don't understand, I will read the SDABC, to see what they have to say about a verse or passage that doesn't make sense. Also I like to see what EGW has to say about passages in the Bible that don't make sense. There are other commentaries that also are a help. Gail, LifeHiscost, Joel Melashenko and 1 other 4 Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Green Cochoa Posted January 7, 2017 Posted January 7, 2017 4 hours ago, newadventures said: Has anyone else struggled with understanding some of the many murders and injustices depicted in the Bible? This year, I made a resolution to study the Bible more, not just the more "popular" passages I've already read, but parts that I may have missed or not read in detail. Recently, though, I've become confused after reading a lot of stuff that I didn't even know was in the Bible, some of it which seemed to directly conflict with my basic sense of human ethics, like this article shows: http://see_the_truth.webs.com/YHVH_Murderer.htm I was wondering if anyone else has read of these things, or been confused by them? I wanted to see others' opinions; ultimately I will research with an open mind to find the truth, whatever it may be. That website, with an obvious anti-God attitude, has cobbled together many texts that have been taken out of their context. When I began reading it, I fully expected to see a famous verse (famous among the faithless who deride the Bible) in the list, and sure enough it was. So I will use this as an example. Consider the verse in Psalms which says "happy shall he be that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones." The context comes in the verses before that, and in the proper context we see more of the story. Remember, O LORD, the children of Edom in the day of Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation thereof. (Psalms 137:7, KJV) O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. (Psalms 137:8, KJV) You see, the context was for a specific group of offenders who had preyed on innocent victims in the past and who were yet given a probationary time of mercy following this evil. The fact is, God is a God of fairness and justice. If your daughter, whom you had loved and in whom you had invested much time and energy for many years, were violently raped and murdered, how would you feel about the judge and jury that let the murderer walk free with no punishment? Let's take that a step farther and suppose the punishment were a $1000 fine--would that make you feel better? What about a $5000 fine plus six months in jail? You see, nothing short of full justice would satisfy you, right? God is also a God of justice. There are times when He kills. He does so to protect others, to keep sin from growing and spreading without bounds, to teach others by example how evil and undesirable sin is, and, ultimately, to bring justice. This is why He says "vengeance is mine, I will repay." Anything less would show He is not fair nor loving. True love has two sides: mercy and justice. God's justice is just as strong as His mercy--but it is the latter which is largely on display until probation has closed and sinners are beyond repentance. The "justice" aspect still waits to be more fully revealed. God, in His tremendous mercy, is waiting as long as He can endure for lost sinners to make their choice to be saved. When people, such as the antediluvians, have passed the boundary of God's mercy, or have placed themselves beyond repentance, God has sometimes acted to bring justice early, for their own good and for the good of others. Now, the next theological hurdle beyond the balance of mercy and justice that you will encounter in these studies will be understanding the Biblical distinction between killing and murder. The Sixth Commandment was mistranslated in the KJV, but is properly rendered in most modern versions as "You shall not murder." The Hebrew has about six or seven different words for kill/murder, more word choices, perhaps, than even English has. The Bible does not prohibit killing of an animal, in fact, such was often commanded. Obviously, that is not "murder," but it IS killing. So understanding the true commandment is the starting point for this study, else the Bible appears full of contradictions. David was blessed by God with ability to kill Goliath. The acts of soldiers in war were not "murder" but rather killing. If someone committed a capital crime, it was right and even commanded that they should be killed--some by hanging, some by stoning, etc., depending on the offense. These capital punishments were not murder. God never commanded murder! He did command killing at times. There are several passages in the scriptures that will help to show the difference between these two concepts. Many today attempt to blur the lines between them, but this is not of God. It is confusion. The Bible is clear enough on the matter for all who seek His wisdom in understanding it. phkrause 1 Quote
Administrators Gail Posted January 7, 2017 Administrators Posted January 7, 2017 There are some who, after studying Scripture, believe that God doesn't kill at all. But the topic deserves a deeper look, bringing into consideration the culture where the specific incidents occurred. GayatfootofCross and Kevin H 2 Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
Green Cochoa Posted January 7, 2017 Posted January 7, 2017 1 minute ago, Gail said: There are some who, after studying Scripture, believe that God doesn't kill at all. But the topic deserves a deeper look, bringing into consideration the culture where the specific incidents occurred. Unless we are talking about "culture of sin" versus "culture of righteousness" there is no need to consider culture in this discussion. Are God's Ten Commandments only applicable to certain cultures? To imply that they have changed, or that the manner of their application has changed, or that God Himself has changed based on the transience of human cultures is to invite all of the faith-destroying questions hinted at in the link given in the OP. God says in Malachi 3:6 "I am the LORD, I change not." Kevin Straub and LifeHiscost 2 Quote
Administrators Gail Posted January 7, 2017 Administrators Posted January 7, 2017 No, that is not what I was saying. God reaches us with language that we understand. In the culture of the times violence was applied more readily than we would consider using today. It was a language that the people knew and understood and accepted at the time. Sojourner, phkrause and GayatfootofCross 3 Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
BigMark Posted January 7, 2017 Posted January 7, 2017 I believe that God gets blamed for the good as well as the bad. Even in Job, God gets blamed for the deaths of his sons. I don't believe that God breaks his own laws then asks us to keep them. Kevin Straub, phkrause and LifeHiscost 3 Quote
Administrators Gail Posted January 7, 2017 Administrators Posted January 7, 2017 Yes, in the Bible God is viewed as being responsible for everything. I don't think we in the West tend to view life in quite the same way. Kevin H 1 Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
Kevin Straub Posted January 7, 2017 Posted January 7, 2017 This is a main subject area of personal study over the last 12 years and have since released a book in collaboration with two other authors, "As He Is: Issues in the 'Character of God' Controversy" by 4th Angel Publications, published by TEACH Services, Inc.; have also contributed to another book on the subject by M. M. Campbell; written many articles and studies plus a recent series of tracts (downloadable--ask me for link) and have gone on several international lecture tours. I may be able to help with the questions here. I am absolutely convinced, along with thousands, that we have not been reading the Bible correctly, even Adventists, yes. Shocking to many. Our Lord saw this idea would be highly resisted because He said He is standing at the door and knocking to come in. That means He is not inside, people. Our prophet has said that the we have "lost sight of Jesus." The righteousness of God is seen in Him. John tells us that the very message He came to bring to us is that God is all light and no darkness in Him (1 John 1:5). He also defines that light as the animating force of humanity (John 1:4, 9). There is no death in God. It is not in Him to give and He does not give it. Many will close their minds against this truth without any further investigation, thinking it preposterous. The Bible language difficulties can be overcome with a few lessons. The heart is another matter, for most of us desire vengeance of the human kind and unless willing to crucify self, we will not be able to see God as He truly is.“It was a maxim among the Jews that a failure to do good, when one had opportunity, was to do evil; to neglect to save life was to kill” (DA 286.2). There is a reason why the Bible language is what it is, but God saw to it to insert ample evidence and provide the keys to interpret that language consistently, so that we don't end up with a variable God that has dual modalities of wrath, "active" (employment of force) and "passive" ("hiding of face," or "giving over" principle). This is a major forward movement in the reformation which plays a vital role in preparing God's people for the giving of the loud cry of the third angel--that angel that comes down having great power and will lighten the earth with His glory. The glory of God is His character and this is the theme of study that is captivating many minds at this time. This people who call themselves the remnant have prided themselves in being the proprietors of the great controversy theme, but have not realized that they have lacked a key element in the story:“Jesus Christ is the Restorer. Satan, the apostate, is the destroyer. HERE is the conflict between the Prince of life and the prince of this world, the power of darkness” (CTr 247.2). Quote Thinking on His Name Mal. 3:16
Kevin Straub Posted January 7, 2017 Posted January 7, 2017 4 hours ago, Gail said: There are some who, after studying Scripture, believe that God doesn't kill at all. But the topic deserves a deeper look, bringing into consideration the culture where the specific incidents occurred. Time, place and circumstance, the nature of inspiration, culture, all have a bearing. The truth on this subject is rather simple, but humans have managed to weigh it down with a range of complexities. As Satan would have it. Quote Thinking on His Name Mal. 3:16
Kevin Straub Posted January 7, 2017 Posted January 7, 2017 4 minutes ago, The Wanderer said: This kind of thing has no bearing on whether or not your message is correct. God's character, in the context of "murders" in the Bible is illustrated very well in the Scriptures. Yes, it is. And how it is so is the thing to be determined. Gail 1 Quote Thinking on His Name Mal. 3:16
Administrators Gail Posted January 7, 2017 Administrators Posted January 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Kevin Straub said: This is a main subject area of personal study over the last 12 years and have since released a book in collaboration with two other authors, "As He Is: Issues in the 'Character of God' Controversy" by 4th Angel Publications, published by TEACH Services, Inc.; have also contributed to another book on the subject by M. M. Campbell; written many articles and studies plus a recent series of tracts (downloadable--ask me for link) and have gone on several international lecture tours. I may be able to help with the questions here. Thanks for offering! I have the book and we sell it (I work at an ABC) Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
Green Cochoa Posted January 7, 2017 Posted January 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Kevin Straub said: “Jesus Christ is the Restorer. Satan, the apostate, is the destroyer. HERE is the conflict between the Prince of life and the prince of this world, the power of darkness” (CTr 247.2). It hurts me to see Mrs. White used to support things which Mrs. White did not support. CONTEXT is very important. What was the context of the above passage? There is another one that many use as well that says "God destroys no man" and that every man who is destroyed has destroyed himself. But what is her meaning? What is the context? The context is that of character. God will NEVER destroy the character of any person. Each destroys himself or herself through his or her own choices--choices which God has granted liberty to make as free moral agents. But Jesus Himself was clear as to the soul and body. Matthew 10:28 quotes Jesus saying "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Obviously, Satan and God's enemies can kill our bodies. But they are not able kill the soul with it. Why? Is our soul immortal? No. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." God will destroy sinners who have rejected salvation. The Bible tells us Sodom and Gomorrha is an example of this. Jude 7 speaks to this. Mrs. White acknowledges that God will destroy. The Bible agrees: “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.” Quote
Sojourner Posted January 7, 2017 Posted January 7, 2017 Why did God send Jonah to the Gentiles in Nineveh? - Because even then He wanted to save them. As Christians we need to understand the significance of the cross and the curtain being torn in two. The old covenant ushered in the new. Freewill and Grace are now predominant. It is exactly why Jesus had to come. Quote
Kevin Straub Posted January 7, 2017 Posted January 7, 2017 8 hours ago, Green Cochoa said: It hurts me to see Mrs. White used to support things which Mrs. White did not support. CONTEXT is very important. What was the context of the above passage? There is another one that many use as well that says "God destroys no man" and that every man who is destroyed has destroyed himself. But what is her meaning? What is the context? The context is that of character. God will NEVER destroy the character of any person. Each destroys himself or herself through his or her own choices--choices which God has granted liberty to make as free moral agents. But Jesus Himself was clear as to the soul and body. Matthew 10:28 quotes Jesus saying "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Obviously, Satan and God's enemies can kill our bodies. But they are not able kill the soul with it. Why? Is our soul immortal? No. "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." God will destroy sinners who have rejected salvation. The Bible tells us Sodom and Gomorrha is an example of this. Jude 7 speaks to this. Mrs. White acknowledges that God will destroy. The Bible agrees: “Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.” There is nothing amiss with context, sorry. The fact is that we have been given keys to Divine wrath as Divine Recession, or the "hiding of His face" as the mechanism of wrath, see Deut. 31:16-18. We have the Bible language that says "God-did-it" in various scenarios. In the first case, you have the language accompanied by these DR phrases where it is explicitly stated that the objects of wrath were "given over," "given up," and such things. According to principle, God honors freedom of choice and when the errant one is determined to have it, God does not prevent. Then outside forces do damage. Outside forces are human evil, demonic activity, or nature let go to chaotic activity. God gives free choice. This is what love must do. Don't ever forget that. A bad choice brings bad results, so the punishment is built in to the bad choice. God doesn't need to punish anyone for making a bad choice. He didn't go to all this trouble for nothing. He came to save them from being sinners so that they would not suffer sin's punishment, not punish them for being sinners! In the second case, of the language of wrath, you have a built in aetiological solution somewhere in the Bible, either packaged directly with the narrative or in another location altogether. A classic example is that of Saul falling on His sword and the Bible saying God slew him (1 Chron. 10:4 cf. v. 14). In both the first and second cases you have clearly the mechanism of DR taking place, according to stated principle in the Scriptures regarding the function of Divine wrath. The problem comes in when the narrative lacks either one of these modifiers. In the third case, we have only the language of wrath without the provision of DR phraseology or indication of causation (an aetiological solution). Then, the human mind brings an outside hermeneutic to bear upon the case, which seems quite at home disregarding some powerful testimony in several areas (actual valid exegesis, the testimony of Christ, the SoP, the issues at stake in the great controversy, the nature of sin, and common sense), in effect to state that "when the narrative lacks a clear statement of DR or when it does not provide an aetiological solution, then God did it by the application of MIGHT (power of force) to establish in the minds of the universe and us the principles of RIGHT (love, freedom of choice). When people are challenged with this thought, that there is no actual Biblical hermeneutic for dual modalities of wrath, they either attack the messenger or bring more examples of Bible language to prove that God has two modalities of wrath, namely "active wrath" and "passive wrath." The discussion disintegrates immediately into a circular argument with both sides talking completely past each other. They don't even want to try on another view for a minute. The heels dig in and that's it. Are you one of those? The defender of the standard view who will not examine the evidence generally shows a love of this God of active wrath who punishes. But they are loving the wrong god. The character is in process of developing after the manner of this god that they are beholding. The problem is not the language, for we can understand what is going on through education. The problem is that we want vengeance, our style. We want punishment based upon how we do it in the context of evil. Human governing systems administer punishment based upon the foundational principles of restitution, vengeance, and deterrence and Christians want to apply these to God's government, but this produces a god who is just like us. “I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them” (14MR 3.1)."'Whereunto,' asked Christ, 'shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it?' Mark 4:30. He could not employ the kingdoms of the world as a similitude. In society He found nothing with which to compare it. Earthly kingdoms rule by the ascendancy of physical power; but from Christ's kingdom every carnal weapon, every instrument of coercion, is banished. This kingdom is to uplift and ennoble humanity. God's church is the court of holy life, filled with varied gifts and endowed with the Holy Spirit. The members are to find their happiness in the happiness of those whom they help and bless" (AA 12.2). Quote Thinking on His Name Mal. 3:16
Administrators Gail Posted January 7, 2017 Administrators Posted January 7, 2017 As I see here the direction this discussion is heading I need to confess and rectify an error I made. I said that I have a copy of As He Is, published by TEACH. I was mistaken. The book I have is, He Spoke, and It Was, edited by Gerald Klingbell and published by PPPA. They are similarly titled. Truth be told, As He Is, is a title that we did have in the store but were forced to pull it due to customer complaints. This subject is one that many people do not understand as Kevin is presenting here. But the angle has been debated here previously by skyblue, if any can remember. Personally, I am not fully convinced that God is never actively punitive, but I am open to reviewing evidence either way. I know quite a few educated people that would agree with him. I hope that the discussion progresses civilly because I will be considering both sides. Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
Administrators Gail Posted January 7, 2017 Administrators Posted January 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Kevin Straub said: The defender of the standard view who will not examine the evidence generally shows a love of this God of active wrath who punishes. But they are loving the wrong god. The character is in process of developing after the manner of this god that they are beholding. The problem is not the language, for we can understand what is going on through education. The problem is that we want vengeance, our style. We want punishment based upon how we do it in the context of evil. Human governing systems administer punishment based upon the foundational principles of restitution, vengeance, and deterrence and Christians want to apply these to God's government, but this produces a god who is just like us. In my case, this is not true. I don't want vengeance. However He does it I know that God will make all good in the end and I trust Him on that. My understanding is that in Egypt God sent an angel to destroy on that fateful night. God's judgments always work on behalf of his people. I just have trouble with the idea that the impenitent destroy themselves. But as I said, I know many educated people who believe otherwise. Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
Kevin Straub Posted January 7, 2017 Posted January 7, 2017 2 hours ago, The Wanderer said: In this case, Green is quite correct. I find your post to be quite out of context in several ways. Your use of EGW writings here is just wrong, first, because it is used as if it is scripture, and second, you only quoted a portion of the passage to give her words as supposed support for what you said above. Here is the full quote, unedited: You had cited 14MR 3.1 in which the church jumps in with ALL CAPS to excitedly say, "But, but, but sometimes holy angels destroy." But not so fast. Let's to to the context and look at the passage to which they are pointing (for folks who really want to study; all others need not apply):https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107170239/The Same Destructive Power_GC 614.2.docx Quote Thinking on His Name Mal. 3:16
Kevin Straub Posted January 7, 2017 Posted January 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Gail said: In my case, this is not true. I don't want vengeance. However He does it I know that God will make all good in the end and I trust Him on that. My understanding is that in Egypt God sent an angel to destroy on that fateful night. God's judgments always work on behalf of his people. I just have trouble with the idea that the impenitent destroy themselves. But as I said, I know many educated people who believe otherwise. The heart is deceitful. Quote Thinking on His Name Mal. 3:16
Kevin Straub Posted January 7, 2017 Posted January 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Gail said: As I see here the direction this discussion is heading I need to confess and rectify an error I made. I said that I have a copy of As He Is, published by TEACH. I was mistaken. The book I have is, He Spoke, and It Was, edited by Gerald Klingbell and published by PPPA. They are similarly titled. Truth be told, As He Is, is a title that we did have in the store but were forced to pull it due to customer complaints. This subject is one that many people do not understand as Kevin is presenting here. But the angle has been debated here previously by skyblue, if any can remember. Personally, I am not fully convinced that God is never actively punitive, but I am open to reviewing evidence either way. I know quite a few educated people that would agree with him. I hope that the discussion progresses civilly because I will be considering both sides. Gail, the subject is one that most people do not understand, period. Change of paradigm never comes easily with humans. We are talking about a major reformation of view of God and practice of Christianity, so it is to be expected that the reformers will go to the stake. Nothing changes. History repeats. Eventually the truth will triumph. I am not surprised at your local ABC reaction. These stores are all individually managed and this is the decision made by local management. I see stores that do not pull books because customers complain. I have complained to a local ABC about the blatant evangelical titles by non-SdA (Babylonian) authors. Some of the contents are absolutely shocking to see sold/promoted in an ABC. We all have to know for ourselves what is truth and not be beholden to a church or to a church bookstore to decide that for us. I appreciate when people say "I am not fully convinced..." but that there might be something to look at here. This is an attitude of an investigative mind. But to come blasting away with the standard view, as though nothing can be learned on this subject, is a waste of my time, for such cannot see the kingdom of God. I do not say this to be inflammatory but it is just the way it is. For God to use the power of force to guide along a controversy that needs to be proven without the use of force but only the power of love, is to seriously mess up the entire contest. We could never make a correct judgment of God on this basis. There would always be the idea that in some way, sin has a certain viability to it that if not put down by force, will go on. This is not true. Quote Thinking on His Name Mal. 3:16
Green Cochoa Posted January 7, 2017 Posted January 7, 2017 7 minutes ago, Kevin Straub said: The heart is deceitful. Indeed it is. That is why we must adhere in our beliefs to a clear "thus saith the LORD." And the Lord is clear on this point, both in the Bible and in the writings of Mrs. White. You have quoted Mrs. White out of context to make it appear she supported your warm, fuzzy, God-can-do-no-harm doctrine (a false doctrine). God is the King and Ruler of the Universe. He does not look on and watch sin passively, with no power to intervene. God's laws are not so weak and flimsy that they can have no teeth. When His law is a reflection of His character, and the law demands the death of the sinner--folks that's all we need to know. There's a reason the Bible speaks of having a holy fear of Him. But God is wise who anticipated just the sort of errors that you have brought to this forum and has answered them already in the writings of Mrs. White. The truth is in the Bible, of course, but some have so wrested the context of the Bible as to be unable to perceive it from there anymore. The Bible is made to say the opposite of what it actually says. I've heard people make the vain argument that every time the Bible says God did something to kill, to destroy, or to punish, that actually Satan was the agent, and God just "let it happen." Such falsehoods are clearly met with quotes such as the following: The Certainty of God's Judgments God's love is represented in our day as being of such a character as would forbid His destroying the sinner. Men reason from their own low standard of right and justice. "Thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself" (Psalm 50:21). They measure God by themselves. They reason as to how they would act under the circumstances and decide God would do as they imagine they would do. . . . {LDE 240.5} In no kingdom or government is it left to the lawbreakers to say what punishment is to be executed against those who have broken the law. All we have, all the bounties of His grace which we possess, we owe to God. The aggravating character of sin against such a God cannot be estimated any more than the heavens can be measured with a span. God is a moral governor as well as a Father. He is the Lawgiver. He makes and executes His laws. Law that has no penalty is of no force. {LDE 241.1} The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2} Who will say God will not do what He says He will do?--12MR 207-209; 10MR 265 (1876). {LDE 241.3} In answer to that last question, will Kevin be such a one? jackson 1 Quote
Kevin Straub Posted January 7, 2017 Posted January 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Gail said: In my case, this is not true. I don't want vengeance. However He does it I know that God will make all good in the end and I trust Him on that. My understanding is that in Egypt God sent an angel to destroy on that fateful night. God's judgments always work on behalf of his people. I just have trouble with the idea that the impenitent destroy themselves. But as I said, I know many educated people who believe otherwise. Here are a couple of readings to consider; one is very short, the other a bit more detailed: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107170239/The Destroyer in 1 Corinthians 10_10.docx Quote Thinking on His Name Mal. 3:16
Kevin Straub Posted January 7, 2017 Posted January 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Gail said: In my case, this is not true. I don't want vengeance. However He does it I know that God will make all good in the end and I trust Him on that. My understanding is that in Egypt God sent an angel to destroy on that fateful night. God's judgments always work on behalf of his people. I just have trouble with the idea that the impenitent destroy themselves. But as I said, I know many educated people who believe otherwise. I don't know how to navigate this forum very well. I had been on it years back before they changed to this new system. I posted a link to a short article on my fB page but it doesn't come up with the "See More" function intact. But you have the study from dropbox link on 1 Cor. 10:10 to help out. Quote Thinking on His Name Mal. 3:16
Administrators Gail Posted January 7, 2017 Administrators Posted January 7, 2017 Thanks, I was able to click on the link. Help me out with something: Who or what was it that killed the Egyptian firstborn? I read the bit about the destroyer on the page you provided the link for but am still a bit unclear. Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
Green Cochoa Posted January 7, 2017 Posted January 7, 2017 One clear Biblical example of the destructive power of God, exercised through His holy angels, appears in the story of Peter versus Herod. The entire story, as told by Mrs. White, is fascinating, and I would highly recommend it to readers here; but, as it is long, I will quote only a small portion from the end of the story. Quote Herod knew that he deserved none of this praise and homage; yet he did not rebuke the idolatry of the people, but accepted it as his due. The glow of gratified pride was on his countenance as he heard the shout ascend: It is the voice of a god, and not of man! The same voices which now glorified a vile sinner, had, but a few years before, raised the frenzied cry of, Away with Jesus! Crucify him, crucify him! Herod received this flattery and homage with great pleasure, and his heart bounded with triumph; but suddenly a swift and terrible change came over him. His countenance became pallid as death, and distorted with agony; great drops of sweat started from his pores. He stood a moment as if transfixed with pain and terror, then, turning his blanched and livid face to his horror-stricken friends, he cried in hollow, despairing tones. He whom you have exalted as a god is struck with death! {7Red 76.3} He was borne in a state of the most excruciating anguish from the scene of wicked revelry, the mirth, and pomp, and display of which he now loathed in his soul. A moment before, he had been the proud recipient of the praise and worship of that vast throng--now he felt himself in the hands of a Ruler mightier than himself. Remorse seized him; he remembered his cruel command to slay the innocent James; he remembered his relentless persecution of the followers of Christ, and his design to put to death the apostle Peter, whom God had delivered out of his hand; he remembered how, in his mortification and disappointed rage, he had wreaked his unreasoning revenge upon the keepers of the prisoner, and executed them without mercy. He felt that God, who had rescued the apostle from death, was now dealing with him, the relentless persecutor. He found no relief from pain of body or anguish of mind, and he expected none. Herod was acquainted with the law of God, which says, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me," and he knew that in accepting the worship of the people he had filled up the measure of his iniquity, and had brought upon him the just wrath of God. {7Red 77.1} The same angel who had left the royal courts of Heaven to rescue Peter from the power of his persecutor, had been the messenger of wrath and judgment to Herod. The angel smote Peter to arouse him from slumber; but it was with a different stroke that he smote the wicked king, bringing mortal disease upon him. God poured contempt upon Herod's pride, and his person, which he had exhibited decked in shining apparel before the admiring gaze of the people, was eaten by worms, and putrefied while yet alive. Herod died in great agony of mind and body, under the retributive justice of God. {7Red 78.1} This demonstration of divine judgment had a mighty influence upon the people. While the apostle of Christ had been miraculously delivered from prison and death, his persecutor had been stricken down by the curse of God. The news was borne to all lands, and was the means of bringing many to believe on Christ. {7Red 78.2} Quote
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