Murders depicted in the Bible

[Gregory Matthews]

Gail, what happened is due, as I understand it, to the software.  If happens with other people.

 

[Gail]

3 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Gail, what happened is due, as I understand it, to the software.  If happens with other people.

Yes- it should be a setting and it could be a setting that was purposely set that way. We did have a time long ago when people were quoting quote inside quote inside quote creating many layers. Do you remember?

What I do like about this software is that you can select just a portion of a post and an box will pop up giving you the option to quote just that.

I'm guessing that only one layer is allowed presently. If Stan has not tackled this yet I'll see 1) first if only one layer is preferred, 2) if it is possible to set a limit, and 3) if the only other option is to allow unlimited quoting within quotes.

In the meantime I like how Pam has pictured it. 

[Kevin Straub]

47 minutes ago, jackson said:

The Bible verses in question are straight, direct, plain and easy to be understood as written. Only those who find these verses  contradictory to their person beliefs would label them as having an "appearance".

God has many ways to punish, even kill when He deems it necessary. Take the Bible as it reads and let your doctrine be such that it cannot be contradicted by plain, clear Bible verses .

When one finds his/her doctrine at odds with clear verses of  scripture, it is better to revise one's  doctrine than to wrest scripture from its obvious meaning.    

 

We have to harmonize all of Scripture. You can't just so easily wave a hand as if shooing off a fly on this issue, saying, "It says what it says." No way, Jose. The Bible says a great many things, but means something else. That is to say, something other than what it appears to say. I find the treatment of this subject by the adherents of the mainstream view quite shallow and condescending to those of us who have spent years studying it.

The Bible SAYS:

Mal. 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. 
 
2 Sam. 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give [them] unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. 
 
Prov. 1:25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: 
 1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; 
 1:27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. 
 
Jud. 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech: 

But what does the Bible MEAN?

You might come back with a good explanation of what the Bible MEANS when it says these things. You will be interpreting them by the principles of DR (Divine Recession--hiding of face) and maybe even be well-versed enough to show me some Bible proof for DR. But then you will lose your good mind immediately when the same language is used in other cases, giving me no good reason why we should switch principles. None. You will simply be giving me language as it appears.

That God has "many ways to punish" is not established. I have not seen it anywhere offered by any scholars here or anywhere else. All I ever get is more instances of Bible language, as though that proves there are many ways God punishes. All it proves is that many different bad things can happen when God steps back, when His power is no longer acting to save. This model, which is the Biblical model, is so wonderful, because it takes the arbitrary nature of the punishment of the standard view right out of the picture. Why should God decide to bury some alive in the terrors of crushing and suffocation, have venomous snakes bite them on another occasion, drown some, burn some, etc.? Why should all this horror and terror be a part of this portrait of God? How does deterrence fit into the picture of His government and character and into the theme of the great controversy and the principles upon which God's vindication of character is to be waged? What are the terms of the great controversy? Can the application of force be legitimately admitted into the winning of His cause, a cause that intends to win the loyalty of the universe based upon the principles of righteousness alone? How can righteousness win when it needs a little force and fear thrown in to help ensure a victory for its cause? These are serious questions and they get met with flippant comments and mockery FAR TOO OFTEN by people who say they represent a God of love. I get angry and a bit barbed in my responses, sometimes, I admit. I am not proud of it, but anger is a secondary emotion. It really makes me want to weep. 

[Samie]

4 hours ago, Kevin Straub said:

It really makes me want to weep.

No, not yet, Kevin.

Jesus said:

Matthew 25:41   Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Who prepared the everlasting fire?  Did God prepare the everlasting fire or the devil prepared it for himself and his cohorts?

Could you please enlighten me on this, sola scriptura?  Thank you.

[Kevin Straub]

4 hours ago, Samie said:

No, not yet, Kevin.

Jesus said:

Matthew 25:41   Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Who prepared the everlasting fire?  Did God prepare the everlasting fire or the devil prepared it for himself and his cohorts?

Could you please enlighten me on this, sola scriptura?  Thank you.

I don't know how much of what I have written here you have read but if you want to know what I believe about the fires I can give you a paper, but it is a study that is based on Bible and SoP, as this is how I conduct studies that are geared to share with SdA's. I can give you a link to that study if interested, but it is actually small book length, over 60 pp.

The fire prepared for the devil and his angels is a fire that can take spirit beings out of existence. Do you think that would be a fire of oxidative combustion? Hmm.

Eze. 28:14 Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 

It is a fire of a very particular nature, the fire within, the "fire from the midst."

Isa. 33:11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, [as] fire, shall devour you. 
Eze. 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 
  

[Samie]

 

2 hours ago, Kevin Straub said:

The fire prepared for the devil and his angels is a fire that can take spirit beings out of existence.

Thank you, Kevin.

Please pardon my insistence. But did God prepare this fire or did the devil prepare it?

[Kevin H]

7 hours ago, Samie said:

No, not yet, Kevin.

Jesus said:

Matthew 25:41   Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Who prepared the everlasting fire?  Did God prepare the everlasting fire or the devil prepared it for himself and his cohorts?

Could you please enlighten me on this, sola scriptura?  Thank you.

When you study it out God IS the fire. The fire has always been. The fire is not a what but a who.

[Samie]

2 minutes ago, Kevin H said:

When you study it out God IS the fire. The fire has always been. The fire is not a what but a who.

In that case, which of the following is valid vis-a-vis your comment?

1.  Who is the lake of fire in Rev 20?

2.  What is the lake of fire in Rev 20?

[APL]

17 hours ago, Kevin Straub said:

We have to harmonize all of Scripture. You can't just so easily wave a hand as if shooing off a fly on this issue, saying, "It says what it says." No way, Jose. The Bible says a great many things, but means something else. That is to say, something other than what it appears to say. I find the treatment of this subject by the adherents of the mainstream view quite shallow and condescending to those of us who have spent years studying it.

The Bible SAYS:

Mal. 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness. 
 
2 Sam. 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give [them] unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. 
 
Prov. 1:25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof: 
 1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh; 
 1:27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you. 
 
Jud. 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech: 

But what does the Bible MEAN?

You might come back with a good explanation of what the Bible MEANS when it says these things. You will be interpreting them by the principles of DR (Divine Recession--hiding of face) and maybe even be well-versed enough to show me some Bible proof for DR. But then you will lose your good mind immediately when the same language is used in other cases, giving me no good reason why we should switch principles. None. You will simply be giving me language as it appears.

That God has "many ways to punish" is not established. I have not seen it anywhere offered by any scholars here or anywhere else. All I ever get is more instances of Bible language, as though that proves there are many ways God punishes. All it proves is that many different bad things can happen when God steps back, when His power is no longer acting to save. This model, which is the Biblical model, is so wonderful, because it takes the arbitrary nature of the punishment of the standard view right out of the picture. Why should God decide to bury some alive in the terrors of crushing and suffocation, have venomous snakes bite them on another occasion, drown some, burn some, etc.? Why should all this horror and terror be a part of this portrait of God? How does deterrence fit into the picture of His government and character and into the theme of the great controversy and the principles upon which God's vindication of character is to be waged? What are the terms of the great controversy? Can the application of force be legitimately admitted into the winning of His cause, a cause that intends to win the loyalty of the universe based upon the principles of righteousness alone? How can righteousness win when it needs a little force and fear thrown in to help ensure a victory for its cause? These are serious questions and they get met with flippant comments and mockery FAR TOO OFTEN by people who say they represent a God of love. I get angry and a bit barbed in my responses, sometimes, I admit. I am not proud of it, but anger is a secondary emotion. It really makes me want to weep. 

 

The problem it seems to me is that we want the Bible to be simple and plain.  But as EGW says:  The Bible should be a book for study. The precious pearls of truth do not lie upon the surface, to be found by a careless, uninterested reader. Christ knew what was best for us, of whatever age, when he commanded us, "Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life; and they are they which testify of me." {RH, November 9, 1886 par. 11} The truths of the Bible are as pearls hidden. They must be searched, dug out by painstaking effort. Those who take only a surface view of the Scriptures will, with their superficial knowledge, which they think is very deep {Ms24-1886}

[Kevin Straub]

2 hours ago, APL said:

 

The problem it seems to me is that we want the Bible to be simple and plain.  But as EGW says:  The Bible should be a book for study. The precious pearls of truth do not lie upon the surface, to be found by a careless, uninterested reader. Christ knew what was best for us, of whatever age, when he commanded us, "Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life; and they are they which testify of me." {RH, November 9, 1886 par. 11} The truths of the Bible are as pearls hidden. They must be searched, dug out by painstaking effort. Those who take only a surface view of the Scriptures will, with their superficial knowledge, which they think is very deep {Ms24-1886}

Absolutely! Thank-you. And this is exactly one of those subjects where we need to go mining. See FE 444.2. Many like to come back on us with charges of "spiritualizing away" the Bible and we should "take the Scripture 'just as it reads'" but the context of those admonitions is generally pointing to the plan of salvation, the gospel. This study is anything but simple and plain. We are dealing with language which on the surface of it makes God appear to be the opposite of what He really is. I believe we are being tested by this.

[Samie]

Hi Kevin S.;

I really want to know who, in your opinion, prepared the everlasting fire for the devil and his angels.

Can you tell me?

If No, can you at least tell me the reason for your refusal?

Thank you.

[Kevin Straub]

8 hours ago, Samie said:

 

Thank you, Kevin.

Please pardon my insistence. But did God prepare this fire or did the devil prepare it?

God "prepared" it in the same way that God "sends" anything of destruction. It is a letting over; that is what "God sends" means. God ordains freedom of choice and the consequences that come with bad choices; it is in this sense that God sends the evil consequences of evil.

[Kevin Straub]

1 minute ago, Samie said:

Hi Kevin S.;

I really want to know who, in your opinion, prepared the everlasting fire for the devil and his angels.

Can you tell me?

If No, can you at least tell me the reason for your refusal?

Thank you.

I have no problem answering questions people have. It is when they are rude that I have no time for them. I am not always at my computer so sometimes a nice person has to wait a while for a response.

[Kevin Straub]

8 hours ago, Samie said:

In that case, which of the following is valid vis-a-vis your comment?

1.  Who is the lake of fire in Rev 20?

2.  What is the lake of fire in Rev 20?

A fire is not always "THIS" or and nothing else. We are warned about studying this way. Fire is a complicated subject in the Bible. In regard to final fires, we have identified three different fires. The fire that God is, is His presence. The wicked come into His presence only to have their own psyche torment them. The book gets opened in judgment and self-condemnation, in His presence. The righteous love that presence and their whole being longs for more of it. I know this by experience from a revelation God gave me in my youth, when I had a special encounter with God in the Spirit. If you want to pursue our study on the fires, I can give you a link to pick up a paper on it, but it is lengthy.

[Samie]

4 minutes ago, Kevin Straub said:

God "prepared" it in the same way that God "sends" anything of destruction. It is a letting over; that is what "God sends" means. God ordains freedom of choice and the consequences that come with bad choices; it is in this sense that God sends the evil consequences of evil.

Thank you, Kevin.

Since Scriptures are to be mined, as you said, I am of the impression that "preparing" and "sending" seem to be really not the same. In my opinion, "preparing" precedes "sending" or "letting over" because you cannot send nor let over that which does not yet previously exist.

Don't you think so?

[Kevin Straub]

38 minutes ago, Samie said:

Thank you, Kevin.

Since Scriptures are to be mined, as you said, I am of the impression that "preparing" and "sending" seem to be really not the same. In my opinion, "preparing" precedes "sending" or "letting over" because you cannot send nor let over that which does not yet previously exist.

Don't you think so?

No, Samie, I really don't think so. I don't see that there is anything to "prepare," here. This is language, the same as the rest. It is the language of predestination or foreordination. It is only that in what God foreknows He is said to foreordain. But this fire is "prepared" because it is consistent with principle. The principle I am talking about is that only in God is life to be found. For the creature to break from God to "go it alone," is to automatically choose cessation of existence. It is "prepared" because God is prepared to honor freedom of choice. Those souls will go extinct in the fire of His presence, which is the judgment.

[Green Cochoa]

2 hours ago, Kevin Straub said:

God "prepared" it in the same way that God "sends" anything of destruction. It is a letting over; that is what "God sends" means. God ordains freedom of choice and the consequences that come with bad choices; it is in this sense that God sends the evil consequences of evil.

 

Quote

I would seek unto God, and unto God would I commit my cause:  
Which doeth great things and unsearchable; marvellous things without number:  
Who giveth rain upon the earth, and sendeth waters upon the fields:  (Job 5:8-10)

So, when God sends the rain, He only "lets" it come, right?  He basically controls Himself to keep Himself from preventing it from blessing us, is that right?  And then, when He lets it happen, the rain just comes by itself? or did the devil make it happen?

Quote

This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send [to be] a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.  (Acts 7:35)

Moses was wanting to come by himself, but God had not, until the burning bush, let him, is that right?

 

I disagree.

 

God is actively participating with His creation to bring about His will.  And all these things are in accordance with His will.  It is Satan who seeks to plant the thoughts in our minds that God will never destroy--for if he can succeed at that, many will be tempted to procrastinate seeking God and working out their salvation with fear and trembling.  The following text shows God in an active sense:

Quote

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.  (Matthew 5:45)

 

[Kevin H]

11 hours ago, Samie said:

In that case, which of the following is valid vis-a-vis your comment?

1.  Who is the lake of fire in Rev 20?

2.  What is the lake of fire in Rev 20?

Number 1 of course!

[Green Cochoa]

1 hour ago, Kevin H said:

Number 1 of course!

Careful, now.  We may be getting too pantheistic.

Quote

The depths of the earth are the Lord's arsenal, whence were drawn weapons to be employed in the destruction of the old world. Waters gushing from the earth united with the waters from heaven to accomplish the work of desolation. Since the Flood, fire as well as water has been God's agent to destroy very wicked cities. These judgments are sent that those who lightly regard God's law and trample upon His authority may be led to tremble before His power and to confess His just sovereignty. As men have beheld burning mountains pouring forth fire and flames and torrents of melted ore, drying up rivers, overwhelming populous cities, and everywhere spreading ruin and desolation, the stoutest heart has been filled with terror and infidels and blasphemers have been constrained to acknowledge the infinite power of God.  {PP 109.1}

17 (2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 14:10). Coal and Oil Agencies in Final Destruction.--Those majestic trees which God had caused to grow upon the earth, for the benefit of the inhabitants of the old world, and which they had used to form into idols, and to corrupt themselves with, God has reserved in the earth, in the shape of coal and oil to use as agencies in their final destruction. As He called forth the waters in the earth at the time of the Flood, as weapons from His arsenal to accomplish the destruction of the antediluvian race, so at the end of the one thousand years He will call forth the fires in the earth as His weapons which He has reserved for the final destruction, not only of successive generations since the Flood, but the antediluvian race who perished by the Flood (3SG 87).  {1BC 1090.8}

Note that "God's agent" does not equal "God." And if it does, it indicates His active involvement.

Quote

agent |ˈājənt|
noun
1 a person who acts on behalf of another, in particular:
• a person who manages business, financial, or contractual matters for an actor, performer, or writer.
• a person or company that provides a particular service, typically one that involves organizing transactions between two other parties: a travel agent | shipping agents | a real-estate agent.
• a person who obtains information for a government or other official body, typically in secret: a trained intelligence agent | KGB agents | an FBI agent.
2 a person or thing that takes an active role or produces a specified effect: agents of change | bleaching agents.
• Grammar the doer of an action, typically expressed as the subject of an active verb or in a by phrase with a passive verb.
ORIGIN late Middle English (in the sense ‘someone or something that produces an effect’): from Latin agent- ‘doing,’ from agere .

We cannot reduce God to just so much coal and oil--but when that stuff all gets lit, we will certainly have a lake of fire.

[APL]

1 hour ago, Green Cochoa said:

God is actively participating with His creation to bring about His will.  And all these things are in accordance with His will.  It is Satan who seeks to plant the thoughts in our minds that God will never destroy--for if he can succeed at that, many will be tempted to procrastinate seeking God and working out their salvation with fear and trembling.  The following text shows God in an active sense:

Quote

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.  (Matthew 5:45)

 

Satan plants in our minds that sin is not destructive agent, that God is.  Satan takes a verse such as Matthew 10:28 and tells us that it is God that we need to fear.  Satan tells us that God is a severe judge.  Satan leads us to look at disease and death as punishment inflicted by God.  Not only is He the originator of all, but He is the life of everything that lives. It is His life that we receive in the sunshine, in the pure, sweet air, in the food which builds up our bodies and sustains our strength. It is by His life that we exist, hour by hour, moment by moment. Except as perverted by sin, all His gifts tend to life, to health and joy. It is sin that destroys.  As EGW says, Satan, the author of sin and all its results, had led men to look upon death as proceeding from God, as punishment inflicted because of sin.

ALL power in the universe has one source, God. The Creator so respects man's free will, that he gives him power to do that which is contrary to the divine will. This power however is limited; but God gives man unlimited power to do that which is according to his will.  There is one we need to fear.  It is not Satan, other men, or God. 

[APL]

Hey Green - Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

 

There it is!  God did it, he sent the fiery serpents, and many people will killed.  GOD is responsible for their death.  That is very plain, right? 

[APL]

14 minutes ago, APL said:

Hey Green - Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

 

There it is!  God did it, he sent the fiery serpents, and many people will killed.  GOD is responsible for their death.  That is very plain, right? 

But we know that God did not "send" the serpents.  They where there all the time! Deuteronomy 8:15 Who led you through that great and terrible wilderness, wherein were fiery serpents, and scorpions, and drought, where there was no water; who brought you forth water out of the rock of flint;

 

And the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died." {ST, April 2, 1894 par. 2}

 

The Lord had fed them with the bread of heaven, even with angels' food; and yet they murmured against him. By his power he had held in check the wild beasts of the forests, and the reptiles of the wilderness, so that they had not hurt his people; but now he removed his restraining hand, and let the poisonous serpents do as they would have done all along the way had the Lord not restrained them. The real trouble that now came upon them served to bring them to their senses, and to awaken their paralyzed thoughts as to what course to pursue. "Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord, and against thee; pray unto the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us. . . . And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole; and it shall come to pass, that everyone that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole; and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived." {ST, April 2, 1894 par. 3}

 

Throughout the camp of Israel there were the suffering and the dying who had been wounded by the deadly sting of the serpent. But Jesus Christ spoke from the pillar of cloud, and gave directions whereby the people might be healed. The promise was made that whosoever looked upon the brazen serpent should live; and to those who looked the promise was verified. But if anyone said: "What good will it do to look? I shall certainly die under the serpent's deadly sting;" if he continued to talk of his deadly wound, and declared that his case was hopeless, and would not perform the simple act of obedience, he would die. But everyone who looked, lived. {ST, April 2, 1894 par. 4}

 

Jesus said: "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." Christ is speaking to us now as certainly as he spoke to the children of Israel in the wilderness. He is the Healer of both body and soul. Our attention is now called to the Great Physician. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." Just as long as we look at our sins, and talk of and deplore our wretched condition, our wounds and putrefying sores will remain. It is when we take our eyes from ourselves, and fasten them upon the uplifted Saviour, that our souls find hope and peace. The Lord speaks to us through his word, bidding us "look and live." "He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God; for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life." {ST, April 2, 1894 par. 5}

 

Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 9}

[Samie]

8 minutes ago, Kevin Straub said:

No, Samie, I really don't think so. I don't see that there is anything to "prepare," here. This is language, the same as the rest. It is the language of predestination or foreordination. It is only that in what God foreknows He is said to foreordain. But this fire is "prepared" because it is consistent with principle. The principle I am talking about is that only in God is life to be found. For the creature to break from God to "go it alone," is to automatically choose cessation of existence. It is "prepared" because God is prepared to honor freedom of choice. Those souls will go extinct in the fire of His presence, which is the judgment.

Oh, I see.

I think I am seeing your point. For you, in the final judgment that befalls a man who chose to "go it alone", God is not in anyway ACTIVELY implementing man's extinction in the fire of His presence but is merely honoring man's freedom of choice. He chose to break away from God, ergo, he automatically chose cessation of existence in the fire of His presence.

Did I understand you correctly?  If No, please enlighten me.

[Samie]

16 hours ago, Kevin H said:

When you study it out God IS the fire. The fire has always been. The fire is not a what but a who.

16 hours ago, Samie said:

In that case, which of the following is valid vis-a-vis your comment?

1.  Who is the lake of fire in Rev 20?

2.  What is the lake of fire in Rev 20?

4 hours ago, Kevin H said:

Number 1 of course!

 

And can you please tell us your answer to question #1 - "Who is the lake of fire in Rev 20?" 

Thank you.

[Kevin Straub]

11 hours ago, jackson said:

Kevin's statements in blue. 

You might come back with a good explanation of what the Bible MEANS when it says these things. You will be interpreting them by the principles of DR (Divine Recession--hiding of face) and maybe even be well-versed enough to show me some Bible proof for DR. But then you will lose your good mind immediately when the same language is used in other cases, giving me no good reason why we should switch principles. None.

Maybe I am not understanding your point, but I see no reason why "how" God chooses to punish and kill needs a principle. The principle is only important in "why" God does these acts.

You make the "how" God punishes and kills important because your basic premise is based on the notion that a loving God does not personally destroy. You look to substantiate that premise by finding Bible verses that uphold that view , But there are more than a few verses that clearly show that God does , at various times, personally destroy men and women. To explain these "troublesome appearing" verses to mean something other than what they clearly say  does insult to the authority of  scripture.

You will simply be giving me language as it appears. That God has "many ways to punish" is not established. I have not seen it anywhere offered by any scholars here or anywhere else. All I ever get is more instances of Bible language, as though that proves there are many ways God punishes. All it proves is that many different bad things can happen when God steps back, when His power is no longer acting to save.

Again, you don't want some Bible verses to be understood as written because they contradict your personal opinion of how a "loving" God should act. Of course God has many ways to punish. Scripture is too clear to even try to dispute this. It appears that you can't reconcile how a loving God can do His strange work", nor can you abide a God that would use fear as a method of awakening souls that are asleep or dismissive to His commandments.

You appear to be making the Bible fit your views rather than letting the Bible speak plainly to you.

This model, which is the Biblical model, is so wonderful, because it takes the arbitrary nature of the punishment of the standard view right out of the picture. Why should God decide to bury some alive in the terrors of crushing and suffocation, have venomous snakes bite them on another occasion, drown some, burn some, etc.? Why should all this horror and terror a part of this portrait of God? How does deterrence fit into the picture of His government and character and into the theme of the great controversy and the principles upon which God's vindication of character is to be waged?

The "standard view", as you call it. does not look at God's punishment as arbitrary. It is your notion of love that makes it look arbitrary.

2 Sam 6:7     And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for [his] error; and there he died by the ark of God

God can accept no partial obedience, no lax way of treating His commandments. By the judgment upon Uzzah He designed to impress upon all Israel the importance of giving strict heed to His requirements. Thus the death of that one man, by leading the people to repentance, might prevent the necessity of inflicting judgments upon thousands. {CC 176.4

How God "destroys" is everything in this discussion and it is important because the use of force absolutely muddies the waters when it comes to proving the power of right as against the power of might. I have spoken about this in the various comments in this discussion and see no need to keep repeating the same thing. I would suggest that you go to A. T. Jones' sermon 22 from the 1895 GCB because I am in full agreement with the principles he has outlined there.

This "notion" of love is not my own! Love does not use force. Just try telling your wife you will lock her in the basement if she doesn't put enough salt in the soup again.