Murders depicted in the Bible

January 18, 2017

4 hours ago, Kevin Straub said:

Are you a follower of the Des Ford gospel? Sounding kind of like that....

Well, no, brother. Am a follower of Jesus and the gospel He Himself preached.

January 18, 2017

4 hours ago, Kevin Straub said:

Who else would it be?

So how come you say He has no ACTIVE participation when He allowed the sinner?

January 18, 2017

2 hours ago, APL said:

Yep! And we will see cause and effect. Not execution.

Maybe not execution, but to EXECUTE judgment, as Jesus Himself said:

John 5:26-27

²⁶ For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

²⁷ And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

January 18, 2017

10 hours ago, Kevin Straub said:

11 hours ago, there buster said:

Any time yes means no, up means down, and strange means routine--the position, your position--is incoherent.

So then, you believe the following means that God punished David by selecting adultery as the means?

2 Sam. 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give [them] unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

If you would say this doesn't mean what it says, you are contradicting your statement of personal hermeneutical principle.

Conclusion jumping is not an Olympic sport because it is too easy, as that statement demonstrates. First of all, I have not stated, alluded to, described, or demonstrated a hermeneutical principle. I have made statements about simple logic. Words have definitions; they mean some things and not others. Second, the choice of 'adultery' as the means of punishment ignores a whole raft of issues, the first error--and the one you consistently commit-- is reading 10th century B. C. text in a 21st century context. The second, equally egregious and equally constant in your position, is ignoring the larger context. It's very common, a sort of 2-dimensional reading of a 4 dimensional situation. You have fixed on 2 Sam. 2:11 as a sort of proof text, and used it without regard to the larger setting. What's remarkable about this particular case is that contradictory evidence is in the same chapter!

Quote

⁸I also gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your care, and I gave you the house of Israel and Judah; and if that had been too little, I would have added to you many more things like these!

By your reasoning, God is rewarding David with what you call adultery. Or, if you want to argue that it was not adultery for David to take Saul's wives, then you are arguing that God killed Saul in order to give David all these women (there were hundreds). So, did God reward David with adultery, or by eliminating Saul? Or is God lying, since (as you would have it) he did not kill Saul? Even in that case, God is taking responsibility for the death of Saul, by claiming that he is the one that gave all these things to David, none of which would have been lawful while Saul lived.

It's an interesting God you portray, passive aggressive. Hides his face and allows Saul to be killed, permitting someone else to carry out his dirty work, disavowing responsibility for not stopping what he could have stopped, and then takes the credit for transferring the loot. We would find any human who did such things despicable, yet this this weaselly behavior is presented as noble, and worthy of worship.

Meaning depends upon context. Always. There is a cultural context within which these statements were made, and if affects the way they were originally understood.

January 18, 2017

8 hours ago, there buster said:

Conclusion jumping is not an Olympic sport because it is too easy, as that statement demonstrates. First of all, I have not stated, alluded to, described, or demonstrated a hermeneutical principle. I have made statements about simple logic. Words have definitions; they mean some things and not others. Second, the choice of 'adultery' as the means of punishment ignores a whole raft of issues, the first error--and the one you consistently commit-- is reading 10th century B. C. text in a 21st century context. The second, equally egregious and equally constant in your position, is ignoring the larger context. It's very common, a sort of 2-dimensional reading of a 4 dimensional situation. You have fixed on 2 Sam. 2:11 as a sort of proof text, and used it without regard to the larger setting. What's remarkable about this particular case is that contradictory evidence is in the same chapter!

By your reasoning, God is rewarding David with what you call adultery. Or, if you want to argue that it was not adultery for David to take Saul's wives, then you are arguing that God killed Saul in order to give David all these women (there were hundreds). So, did God reward David with adultery, or by eliminating Saul? Or is God lying, since (as you would have it) he did not kill Saul? Even in that case, God is taking responsibility for the death of Saul, by claiming that he is the one that gave all these things to David, none of which would have been lawful while Saul lived.

It's an interesting God you portray, passive aggressive. Hides his face and allows Saul to be killed, permitting someone else to carry out his dirty work, disavowing responsibility for not stopping what he could have stopped, and then takes the credit for transferring the loot. We would find any human who did such things despicable, yet this this weaselly behavior is presented as noble, and worthy of worship.

Meaning depends upon context. Always. There is a cultural context within which these statements were made, and if affects the way they were originally understood.

lol. Yes, we could go on and on. You think I don't have answers to your stuff? Of course I do, but why? You like God the way you see Him and there is nothing else for you to see. Welcome to that. You write a lot of stuff here that sounds smart. But it isn't.

January 18, 2017

10 hours ago, Samie said:

So how come you say He has no ACTIVE participation when He allowed the sinner?

He has active participation in giving life. The free moral agent has choices to make with that life and has to face the results of those choices. That is all.

January 18, 2017

10 hours ago, Samie said:

Maybe not execution, but to EXECUTE judgment, as Jesus Himself said:

John 5:26-27

²⁶ For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

²⁷ And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

What do you think it means to "execute judgment?" Is it the same as Psalms 82? If so, then no, it is not execution?

January 18, 2017

38 minutes ago, Kevin Straub said:

You think I don't have answers to your stuff? Of course I do, but why? You like God the way you see Him and there is nothing else for you to see. Welcome to that. You write a lot of stuff here that sounds smart. But it isn't.

But why? Because most of Christian life is a type 3 narrative. Type 1: Protagonist struggles with obstacles, protagonist is changed. Type 2: Protagonist and antagonist struggle; one or both are changed. Type 3: See Daniel 6. Neither protagonist nor antagonist is changed. But there is still significant change. Understanding type 3 explains why.

As far as real answers--by which I think you actually mean rebuttal--there are no real answers which require words to mean the opposite of what they actually mean.

As C. S. Lewis wrote:

Quote

[God's] Omnipotence means power to do all that is intrinsically possible, not to do the intrinsically impossible. You may attribute miracles to Him, but not nonsense. This is no limit to His power. If you choose to say 'God can give a creature free will and at the same time withhold free will from it', you have not succeeded in saying anything about God: meaningless combinations of words do not suddenly acquire meaning simply because we prefix to them the two other words 'God can'. It remains true that all things are possible with God: the intrinsic impossibilities are not things but nonentities. It is no more possible for God than for the weakest of His creatures to carry out both of two mutually exclusive alternatives; not because His power meets an obstacle, but because nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.

That's an excellent summary of the passive aggressive God your describe who takes no responsibility for what he permits: Nonsense remains nonsense even when we talk it about God.

Nonsense often sounds sophisticated because of the heaps of verbiage used to camouflage it. But when we reduce the statements to their clear meaning, its nonsensical nature is exposed. It is no shame to be deceived by this sophistry; the whole point of the lengthy and verbose prose is to conceal what is being said. But it is folly to persist in promoting it when its true nature has been revealed.

January 18, 2017

18 hours ago, Kevin Straub said:

When Satan is saying it he means that God should torture the sinner with pain. When God says it it means that the sinner must be allowed to have his sin, with its corresponding results.

18 hours ago, Samie said:

Is it God Who allows the sinner?

16 hours ago, Kevin Straub said:

Who else would it be?

12 hours ago, Samie said:

So how come you say He has no ACTIVE participation when He allowed the sinner?

1 hour ago, Kevin Straub said:

He has active participation in giving life. The free moral agent has choices to make with that life and has to face the results of those choices.

I thought you said "the sinner must be allowed to have his sin, with its corresponding results" and that God allowed it. And the corresponding result God allowed is:

Romans 2:5-6

⁵ But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

⁶ Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

I guess both "allowing" and "rendering" are active, not passive.

January 18, 2017

19 hours ago, Samie said:

Here's what Jesus said is the reason for resurrecting all in the graves, and that includes both righteous and wicked:

John 5:28-29   28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There is a need for all to be resurrected because they will be judged according to their works:

Matthew 16:27   For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

15 hours ago, APL said:

Yep! And we will see cause and effect. Not execution.

12 hours ago, Samie said:

Maybe not execution, but to EXECUTE judgment, as Jesus Himself said:

John 5:26-27

²⁶ For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

²⁷ And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

2 hours ago, APL said:

What do you think it means to "execute judgment?" Is it the same as Psalms 82? If so, then no, it is not execution?

When I quoted John 5:28, 29 you said it is cause and effect. I quoted the immediate context, the two previous verses (vv26-27, not Ps 82), which specify that it is to execute judgment.

Seems pretty clear to me that the reason for resurrecting the wicked is to execute judgment upon them. Again, this fits like glove with the statement of Jesus that He will reward every man according to his works when He returns (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12). I guess "rewarding" and "executing" are active instead of passive.

January 18, 2017

1 minute ago, Samie said:

When I quoted John 5:28, 29 you said it is cause and effect. I quoted the immediate context, the two previous verses (vv26-27, not Ps 82), which specify that it is to execute judgment.

Seems pretty clear to me that the reason for resurrecting the wicked is to execute judgment upon them. Again, this fits like glove with the statement of Jesus that He will reward every man according to his works when He returns (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12). I guess "rewarding" and "executing" are active instead of passive.

methinks you just like to argue, now. Have a good day, Samie.

January 18, 2017

Just now, Kevin Straub said:

methinks you just like to argue, now. Have a good day, Samie.

Quoting scriptures relevant to the issue being addressed is just for the sake of "arguing"?

I don't even call your attention to the absence of scriptures in your responses to me in our dialogue.

January 18, 2017

Now who's guilty of simply "arguing"? The one who presents scriptures relevant to the issue, or the one who simply reasons out with no scriptures at all?

January 18, 2017

1 minute ago, Samie said:

When I quoted John 5:28, 29 you said it is cause and effect. I quoted the immediate context, the two previous verses (vv26-27, not Ps 82), which specify that it is to execute judgment.

Seems pretty clear to me that the reason for resurrecting the wicked is to execute judgment upon them. Again, this fits like glove with the statement of Jesus that He will reward every man according to his works when He returns (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12). I guess "rewarding" and "executing" are active instead of passive.

And what does the Son say? John 3:16-21 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that does truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are worked in God.

Since it is hard for you to get the connection with the Psalms, lets quote the verses you bring forward:

John 5:26-29 For as the Father has life in himself; so has he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And has given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, to the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, to the resurrection of damnation.

What does execute judgment mean? Doe sit mean that God kills the sinner? I don't see that in the verse. I do read in scripture that the wages of sin is death, sin pays it wage - death. And sin which it is full grown brings death. (Romans 6:23; James 1:15) I do not read that if you sin, God will kill you. That is the claim of the evil one.

What do we see in the life and teaching of Christ? Do we see a vindictive God that will kill sinners? Is the life of Christ on this earth a definitive revelation of the character of God or not? "Green Cochoa" says no. How about you? How about EGW? This is what she says: Satan charged God with possessing the attributes that he himself possessed. [you know what those are, right?] Christ came to this world to reveal God's character as it really is. He is the perfect representation of the Father. His life of sinlessness, lived on this earth in human nature, is a complete refutation of Satan's charge against the character of God. {BTS, October 1, 1902 par. 2} All that man needs to know or can know of God has been revealed in the life and character of His Son. {8T 286.1} We have only one perfect photograph of God, and this is Jesus Christ. {Ms70-1899}

If your belief that God has to kill sinners by torture and execution, but that has not been revealed in the life of His Son, then one better reconsider their beliefs.

January 18, 2017

1 hour ago, APL said:

And what does the Son say? John 3:16-21

The issue is whether God has an ACTIVE participation in the reward of the wicked. It appears, He really has:

2 hours ago, Samie said:

When I quoted John 5:28, 29 you said it is cause and effect. I quoted the immediate context, the two previous verses (vv26-27, not Ps 82), which specify that it is to execute judgment.

Seems pretty clear to me that the reason for resurrecting the wicked is to execute judgment upon them. Again, this fits like glove with the statement of Jesus that He will reward every man according to his works when He returns (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12). I guess "rewarding" and "executing" are active instead of passive.

You countered with John 3:16-21, verses that talk about why Jesus was sent to the world in His FIRST advent. But the issue is NOT about the FIRST advent. It is about the SECOND advent. Your use of Scriptures seems unfortunate.

1 hour ago, APL said:

What does execute judgment mean? Doe sit mean that God kills the sinner? I don't see that in the verse. I do read in scripture that the wages of sin is death, sin pays it wage - death. And sin which it is full grown brings death. (Romans 6:23; James 1:15) I do not read that if you sin, God will kill you. That is the claim of the evil one.

If to "execute judgment" is for you "to kill", then you have to prove it from Scriptures.

There's a command "Thou shalt not kill". But I have yet to read one that says "Thou shalt not execute judgment". Instead people are admonished to "execute judgment":

Jeremiah 22:3

Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.

Can you prove from Scriptures that "to execute judgment" means "to kill" as you seem to equate it to in your post?

1 hour ago, APL said:

If your belief that God has to kill sinners by torture and execution, but that has not been revealed in the life of His Son, then one better reconsider their beliefs.

January 19, 2017

I said, "if your believe." If that is not your understanding of what it means to "execute judgment," then please tell us. I'm all ears. I know God destroys no one. Everyone that is destroyed will have destroyed themselves.

January 19, 2017

2 hours ago, APL said:

I said, "if your believe." If that is not your understanding of what it means to "execute judgment," then please tell us. I'm all ears. I know God destroys no one. Everyone that is destroyed will have destroyed themselves.

I have already told you a couple of times that when He comes He will reward every man according to what each has done. That's how I understand what "execute judgment" means when the Lord comes. It's your post that equated to "execute judgment" is to "kill". That's why I asked you to prove your contention from Scriptures.

So, can you? If Yes, then go ahead. I'll wait.

If no, then please tell us.

January 19, 2017

2 hours ago, Samie said:

I have already told you a couple of times that when He comes He will reward every man according to what each has done. That's how I understand what "execute judgment" means when the Lord comes. It's your post that equated to "execute judgment" is to "kill". That's why I asked you to prove your contention from Scriptures.

Please read what I wrote, I said IF, did you see the IF? IF YOU say "execute judgment" equals killing then you are wrong. Also if you say the reward God doles out (did you see the IF?) is torture/torment, then you are again wrong. How do you know from the Bible? By the life and teaching of Christ. Christ never killed anyone. He never tortured anyone. "To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts." Hebrews 4.

January 19, 2017

5 hours ago, APL said:

Please read what I wrote, I said IF, did you see the IF? IF YOU say "execute judgment" equals killing then you are wrong. Also if you say the reward God doles out (did you see the IF?) is torture/torment, then you are again wrong. How do you know from the Bible? By the life and teaching of Christ. Christ never killed anyone. He never tortured anyone. "To day if you will hear his voice, harden not your hearts." Hebrews 4.

My apologies if I misunderstood you. Back to the issue.

Does God have an ACTIVE participation in rewarding every man according to what each his done?

My answer is Yes. But first I want to know your answer before I provide the scriptural basis for my position.

So what's your answer, please? Is it a Yes, or a No?

January 19, 2017

3 hours ago, Samie said:

My apologies if I misunderstood you. Back to the issue.

Does God have an ACTIVE participation in rewarding every man according to what each his done?

My answer is Yes. But first I want to know your answer before I provide the scriptural basis for my position.

So what's your answer, please? Is it a Yes, or a No?

What is the reward you are thinking about?

God the source of ALL power in the universe. The Creator so respects man's free will, that he gives him power to do that which is contrary to the divine will. This power however is limited; but God gives man unlimited power to do that which is according to his will. Not only is He the originator of all, but He is the life of everything that lives. It is His life that we receive in the sunshine, in the pure, sweet air, in the food which builds up our bodies and sustains our strength. It is by His life that we exist, hour by hour, moment by moment. Except as perverted by sin, all His gifts tend to life, to health and joy. {Ed 197.5}

If the reward you are thinking about involves any of the following, the NO, God is not an active participate. Any hatred, revenge, or the indulgence of any passion that leads to injurious acts toward others, or causes us even to wish them harm (for "whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer"); a selfish neglect of caring for the needy or suffering; all these are violations of the sixth commandment. Galatians 6:7-8 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatever a man sows, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. Cause and effect.

January 19, 2017

6 hours ago, Samie said:

Does God have an ACTIVE participation in rewarding every man according to what each his done?

My answer is Yes. But first I want to know your answer before I provide the scriptural basis for my position.

So what's your answer, please? Is it a Yes, or a No?

2 hours ago, APL said:

What is the reward you are thinking about?

. . .

If the reward you are thinking about involves any of the following, the NO, God is not an active participate.

People have NOTHING to do about the final reward of each one. It's God, through Christ, Who determines that.

^KJVMatthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

^NASRevelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

^KJVRomans 2:5-6 ⁵ But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; ⁶ Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Seems pretty clear from Scriptures that God will render the reward to each one according to what each has done. And "will render" is ACTIVE, instead of passive. Therefore God has an ACTIVE participation in the reward of every man according to his works.

Since your answer is No, can you provide Scriptural basis for your position that God has no active participation in the final reward of the wicked?

January 19, 2017

1 hour ago, Samie said:

People have NOTHING to do about the final reward of each one. It's God, through Christ, Who determines that.

^KJVMatthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

^NASRevelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

^KJVRomans 2:5-6 ⁵ But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; ⁶ Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Seems pretty clear from Scriptures that God will render the reward to each one according to what each has done. And "will render" is ACTIVE, instead of passive. Therefore God has an ACTIVE participation in the reward of every man according to his works.

Since your answer is No, can you provide Scriptural basis for your position that God has no active participation in the final reward of the wicked?

Again - WHAT is the reward?

I have quoted many times that it is sin that causes death. Also, look at the life of Christ. Did Christ suffer the penalty of sin on the Cross? YES. How was God involved? THAT is the answer. Would you like me to quote you the end of each GOSPEL? Note: GOSPEL means GOOD NEWS. Jesus admonishes to repent and BELIEVE the GOSPEL.

January 19, 2017

Quote

People have NOTHING to do about the final reward of each one. It's God, through Christ, Who determines that.

AGAIN: Galatians 6:7-8 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatever a man sows, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Cause and effect.

January 19, 2017

1 hour ago, APL said:

Again - WHAT is the reward?

Romans 2:5-6 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Scriptures are clear on what the rewards are:

For the righteous:

Romans 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

For the wicked:

Romans 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath

Again, since your answer is No, can you provide Scriptural basis for your position that God has no active participation in the final reward of the wicked?

January 19, 2017

Just now, Samie said:

Again, since your answer is No, can you provide Scriptural basis for your position that God has no active participation in the final reward of the wicked?

I have answered your question. Do you not like the answer? Did Christ suffer the penalty of transgression? YES. How was God involved? THAT is your answer!! Did Christ experience the "wrath of God?" YES. What is the Wrath of God? Start with Romans 1.

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