Murders depicted in the Bible

[Kevin Straub]

1 hour ago, APL said:

You can doubt if you wish.  That is your choice.  Christ gave us the true picture of the Character of God which reveals how He deals with sinners.  See John 12, John 14, I'll let you figure out the verses.  In dealing with Sin and demonstration of the results of sin,  see 2 Thessalonians 5, Romans 7 and 8,  1 Peter 2.  As for the Cross, certainly you can find those verses too.  But it is clear that there is not much I can say to convince you and I really do not see that as my Job for it is not I that is convince you, that it the work of the Spirit.  Rejecting the work of the Spirit however has cause and effect consequences.  Good Luck brother...

1 Sam. 15:23 For rebellion [is as] the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness [is as] iniquity and idolatry.

[Samie]

1 hour ago, APL said:

Christ did not commit suicide.  Sin killed the Son of God.  Sin will kill sinners in the end. 

"Sin killed the Son of God" - from the un"Holy Scriptures" - APL version.  But from the Holy Scriptures - Christ laid down His life, as He Himself said. And for APL that's committing suicide.  In short, APL's just short of saying, "I am correct; Christ is wrong."  That's how far a man can go just to defend his own concocted doctrine.

If Christ can be killed by outside forces, then He is NOT God. 

He EXPICITLY said "ouvdei.j ai;rei auvth.n avpV evmou/" translated in the NLT into "No one can take my life from me."

"No one" from the Greek "ouvdei.j" which means no man, no one, nothing.

No man, no one, nothing, not even sin can take his life away from Him had He not laid it down Himself, as Scriptures EXPLICITLY say.  But APL wants me to take his word for it.

When Christ in Scriptures say "NOTHING can take away my life from Me.", APL sorts of whispers to my ear and says, "Well, er, ah, actually SOMETHING took away Jesus' life. Sin killed Him."

[Kevin Straub]

21 minutes ago, Samie said:

"Sin killed the Son of God" - from the un"Holy Scriptures" - APL version.  But from the Holy Scriptures - Christ laid down His life, as He Himself said. And for APL that's committing suicide.  In short, APL's just short of saying, "I am correct; Christ is wrong."  That's how far a man can go just to defend his own concocted doctrine.

If Christ can be killed by outside forces, then He is NOT God. 

He EXPICITLY said "ouvdei.j ai;rei auvth.n avpV evmou/" translated in the NLT into "No one can take my life from me."

"No one" from the Greek "ouvdei.j" which means no man, no one, nothing.

No man, no one, nothing, not even sin can take his life away from Him had He not laid it down Himself, as Scriptures EXPLICITLY say.  But APL wants me to take his word for it.

When Christ in Scriptures say "NOTHING can take away my life from Me.", APL sorts of whispers to my ear and says, "Well, er, ah, actually SOMETHING took away Jesus' life. Sin killed Him."

2 Cor. 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 
Isa. 53:12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. 
 Rom.  6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 
1 Cor. 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 
Isa. 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 
 

[Samie]

But the issue is not about who or what killed Jesus but whether God has an active participation in the final reward of the wicked.  The discussion strayed because APL, having nowhere to turn to in Scriptures, appealed to the cross and tried to correlate Jesus' death to the final death of the wicked.  But again, the proof he offered backfired and proved his contention wrong.

Jesus said, the Father FORSOOK HIM. That alone says a lot that indeed the Father has an active part in the death of His Son.  But notice that when Jesus said "Father, why hast thou forsaken me?", he was still alive on the cross, despite the fact that the Father has already FORSAKEN Him. So what actually took away His life? He said: NKJ John 10:11  "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."

He voluntarily laid His life down!

John 10:17-18   17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.  18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

The Father COMMANDED the Son to lay down His life.  Both the Father and the Son have ACTIVE participation in the death of Christ.  And if the death of Christ is to be the pattern of how it will be with the death of the wicked in the final judgment, as APL wanted it to be, then that simply proves that both the Father and the Son will have ACTIVE participation in the final death of the wicked.

 

".

[Samie]

Oh-oh, I thought Kevin left.  But I'm glad he's back, this time ARMED with Scriptures:

8 minutes ago, Kevin Straub said:

2 Cor. 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 
Isa. 53:12 Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. 
 Rom.  6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 
1 Cor. 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin
James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 
Isa. 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 

Let's see:

2 Cor. 5:21 "he hath made him [to be] sin for us . . ."  Active participation

Isa. 53:12 "Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."   Active participation.

Rom 6:23, 1 Cor 15:56 & James 1:15, speak about the relationship of sin and death and NOT on how death was brought about.

Isa. 53:6 "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."   IOW, that which leads to death - sin - the LORD laid on Him. Active participation.

Thank you, Kevin, for contributing swords to my armory of the Word.

[Kevin Straub]

25 minutes ago, Samie said:

Oh-oh, I thought Kevin left.  But I'm glad he's back, this time ARMED with Scriptures:

Let's see:

2 Cor. 5:21 "he hath made him [to be] sin for us . . ."  Active participation

Isa. 53:12 "Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."   Active participation.

Rom 6:23, 1 Cor 15:56 & James 1:15, speak about the relationship of sin and death and NOT on how death was brought about.

Isa. 53:6 "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."   IOW, that which leads to death - sin - the LORD laid on Him. Active participation.

Thank you, Kevin, for contributing swords to my armory of the Word.

It isn't about you, now, is it?

[Kevin Straub]

Sin was imputed to Christ. It was an act of God as much as it was an act of Christ. In fact, it was Christ who went in to the Father to make the offer of Himself, in the everlasting covenant. He could not have died otherwise. This is no wise makes God the slayer of His Son. It was the principle of sin, which is the separation of the soul from God, in whom only is life. God's withdrawal from Christ was the imputation of sin. He chose to do this, for us, and for the securing of the universe by the demonstration of the principles of two opposing kingdoms, one based on love and freedom, the other on force and deception.

[APL]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

APL sorts of whispers to my ear and says, "Well, er, ah, actually SOMETHING took away Jesus' life. Sin killed Him."

At least on in good company.  Cease to cherish and excuse sin; for sin caused the death of the Son of God. {GW92 466.3}

[Samie]

45 minutes ago, Kevin Straub said:

Sin was imputed to Christ. It was an act of God as much as it was an act of Christ. In fact, it was Christ who went in to the Father to make the offer of Himself, in the everlasting covenant. He could not have died otherwise.

That's clearly ACTIVE participation of both the Father and the Son.

 

50 minutes ago, Kevin Straub said:

This is no wise makes God the slayer of His Son. It was the principle of sin, which is the separation of the soul from God, in whom only is life.

Principle of sin that slayed the Son?  I beg to disagree, UNTIL & UNLESS you provide Scriptures that simply hints so.  If that is true, then Satan - the author of sin and its accompanying principles - is more powerful than our Savior.  He had created a principle that can slay the Son no matter what. Is this what you mean?  I guess even if the whole of the Universe followed Satan's principles yet the Son REFUSED to die, He cannot die.

The Son voluntarily died - He laid down His life of His own accord.  The Father COMMANDED Him to do it:

John 10:17-18   17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.  18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

It was because of love for His sheep that the Shepherd gave His life. Had He not given His life, we would have been doomed.

[Samie]

19 minutes ago, APL said:

At least on in good company.  Cease to cherish and excuse sin; for sin caused the death of the Son of God. {GW92 466.3}

Did Sister White mean what you want her to mean - that sin slayed the Son of God?  Here's the result of your proposition.

Sin slayed Christ - according to you.  Satan is the author of sin.  Satan is the author of what slayed Christ. That makes Satan more powerful than Christ Who can do NOTHING to defend Himself from what Satan authored that slayed Him.

But, thanks be to God, No, that is NOT true. 

The Son VOLUNTARILY laid down His life, to save His sheep from, and empower him AGAINST, Satan.

[Kevin Straub]

21 minutes ago, Samie said:

Did Sister White mean what you want her to mean - that sin slayed the Son of God?  Here's the result of your proposition.

Sin slayed Christ - according to you.  Satan is the author of sin.  Satan is the author of what slayed Christ. That makes Satan more powerful than Christ Who can do NOTHING to defend Himself from what Satan authored that slayed Him.

But, thanks be to God, No, that is NOT true. 

The Son VOLUNTARILY laid down His life, to save His sheep from, and empower him AGAINST, Satan.

That sin slayed Christ and that He voluntarily laid down His life are not mutually exclusive. He volunteered to become man's surety and when that plan was executed, God gave Him over to the results of sin. Did your sin and mine slay Christ? Yes, or no? I say, "Yes," they did.

Everybody here knows I am right. Do I get a badge?

[Samie]

1 minute ago, Kevin Straub said:

That sin slayed Christ and that He voluntarily laid down His life are not mutually exclusive. He volunteered to become man's surety and when that plan was executed, God gave Him over to the results of sin. Did your sin and mine slay Christ? Yes, or no? I say, "Yes," they did.

Everybody here knows I am right. Do I get a badge?

Then, I am not in your "everybody".  I was asking you to provide Scriptures that sin slayed Christ, but you have yet to produce one.

Again,

Sin slayed Christ - according to you.  Satan is the author of sin.  Satan is the author of what slayed Christ. That makes Satan more powerful than Christ Who can do NOTHING to defend Himself from what Satan authored that slayed Him.

But, thanks be to God, No, that is NOT true. 

The Son voluntarily died - He laid down His life of His own accord.  The Father COMMANDED Him to do it

John 10:17-18   17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.  18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

And the Son OBEYED the Father.

Now, where's your verse that hints sin slayed the Son?

 

[APL]

1 hour ago, jackson said:

Of course He sent them. Do you really believe it was coincidence?

Could He not shut the lions' mouths for Daniel?  

Did the frogs that covered the land of Egypt just decide to come on their own  when Moses raised his rod ?

Did the quail just fall from the sky on their own just when the Israelites  were moaning about  returning to the fleshpots of Egypt?

     The truths most plainly revealed in the Bible have been involved in doubt and darkness by learned men, who, with a pretense of great wisdom, teach that the Scriptures have a mystical, a secret, spiritual meaning not apparent in the language employed. These men are false teachers. It was to such a class that Jesus declared: "Ye know not the Scriptures, neither the power of God." Mark 12:24.

 

 

Moses faithfully set before the people their great sin. It was God's power alone that had preserved them in "that great and terrible wilderness, wherein were fiery serpents, and scorpions, and drought, where there was no water." Deuteronomy 8:15. Every day of their travels they had been kept by a miracle of divine mercy. In all the way of God's leading they had found water to refresh the thirsty, bread from heaven to satisfy their hunger, and peace and safety under the shadowy cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night. Angels had ministered to them as they climbed the rocky heights or threaded the rugged paths of the wilderness. Notwithstanding the hardships they had endured, there was not a feeble one in all their ranks. Their feet had not swollen in their long journeys, neither had their clothes grown old. God had subdued before them the fierce beasts of prey and the venomous reptiles of the forest and the desert. If with all these tokens of His love the people still continued to complain, the Lord would withdraw His protection until they should be led to appreciate His merciful care, and return to Him with repentance and humiliation. {PP 428.3}

 

Because they had been shielded by divine power they had not realized the countless dangers by which they were continually surrounded. In their ingratitude and unbelief they had anticipated death, and now the Lord permitted death to come upon them. The poisonous serpents that infested the wilderness were called fiery serpents, on account of the terrible effects produced by their sting, it causing violent inflammation and speedy death. As the protecting hand of God was removed from Israel, great numbers of the people were attacked by these venomous creatures. {PP 429.1}

 

Now there was terror and confusion throughout the encampment. In almost every tent were the dying or the dead. None were secure. Often the silence of night was broken by piercing cries that told of fresh victims. All were busy in ministering to the sufferers, or with agonizing care endeavoring to protect those who were not yet stricken. No murmuring now escaped their lips. When compared with the present suffering, their former difficulties and trials seemed unworthy of a thought. {PP 429.2}

 

The people now humbled themselves before God. They came to Moses with their confessions and entreaties. "We have sinned," they said, "for we have spoken against the Lord, and against thee." Only a little before, they had accused him of being their worst enemy, the cause of all their distress and afflictions. But even when the words were upon their lips, they knew that the charge was false; and as soon as real trouble came they fled to him as the only one who could intercede with God for them. "Pray unto the Lord," was their cry, "that He take away the serpents from us." {PP 429.3}

 

----------

 

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest [cause and effect]. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

 

The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law. Dark are the records of human misery that earth has witnessed during its long centuries of crime. The heart sickens, and the mind grows faint in contemplation. Terrible have been the results of rejecting the authority of Heaven. But a scene yet darker is presented in the revelations of the future. The records of the past,--the long procession of tumults, conflicts, and revolutions, the "battle of the warrior . . . with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood" (Isaiah 9:5),--what are these, in contrast with the terrors of that day when the restraining Spirit of God shall be wholly withdrawn from the wicked, no longer to hold in check the outburst of human passion and satanic wrath! The world will then behold, as never before, the results of Satan's rule. {GC 36.2}

 

[Kevin Straub]

11 minutes ago, APL said:

Moses faithfully set before the people their great sin. It was God's power alone that had preserved them in "that great and terrible wilderness, wherein were fiery serpents, and scorpions, and drought, where there was no water." Deuteronomy 8:15. Every day of their travels they had been kept by a miracle of divine mercy. In all the way of God's leading they had found water to refresh the thirsty, bread from heaven to satisfy their hunger, and peace and safety under the shadowy cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night. Angels had ministered to them as they climbed the rocky heights or threaded the rugged paths of the wilderness. Notwithstanding the hardships they had endured, there was not a feeble one in all their ranks. Their feet had not swollen in their long journeys, neither had their clothes grown old. God had subdued before them the fierce beasts of prey and the venomous reptiles of the forest and the desert. If with all these tokens of His love the people still continued to complain, the Lord would withdraw His protection until they should be led to appreciate His merciful care, and return to Him with repentance and humiliation. {PP 428.3}

 

Because they had been shielded by divine power they had not realized the countless dangers by which they were continually surrounded. In their ingratitude and unbelief they had anticipated death, and now the Lord permitted death to come upon them. The poisonous serpents that infested the wilderness were called fiery serpents, on account of the terrible effects produced by their sting, it causing violent inflammation and speedy death. As the protecting hand of God was removed from Israel, great numbers of the people were attacked by these venomous creatures. {PP 429.1}

 

Now there was terror and confusion throughout the encampment. In almost every tent were the dying or the dead. None were secure. Often the silence of night was broken by piercing cries that told of fresh victims. All were busy in ministering to the sufferers, or with agonizing care endeavoring to protect those who were not yet stricken. No murmuring now escaped their lips. When compared with the present suffering, their former difficulties and trials seemed unworthy of a thought. {PP 429.2}

 

The people now humbled themselves before God. They came to Moses with their confessions and entreaties. "We have sinned," they said, "for we have spoken against the Lord, and against thee." Only a little before, they had accused him of being their worst enemy, the cause of all their distress and afflictions. But even when the words were upon their lips, they knew that the charge was false; and as soon as real trouble came they fled to him as the only one who could intercede with God for them. "Pray unto the Lord," was their cry, "that He take away the serpents from us." {PP 429.3}

 

----------

 

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest [cause and effect]. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}

 

The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law. Dark are the records of human misery that earth has witnessed during its long centuries of crime. The heart sickens, and the mind grows faint in contemplation. Terrible have been the results of rejecting the authority of Heaven. But a scene yet darker is presented in the revelations of the future. The records of the past,--the long procession of tumults, conflicts, and revolutions, the "battle of the warrior . . . with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood" (Isaiah 9:5),--what are these, in contrast with the terrors of that day when the restraining Spirit of God shall be wholly withdrawn from the wicked, no longer to hold in check the outburst of human passion and satanic wrath! The world will then behold, as never before, the results of Satan's rule. {GC 36.2}

 

You bring all this wonderful evidence, dear APL, but do you think those who have ears and eyes will use them? These folks WANT a God who does these various cruel and unusual punishments, manipulating by His power of force, the natural world, as weapons, to strong-arm Pharaoh like a mafia "protection" scheme, to poison the stomachs of the murmuring people, and myriad other such bizarre phenomenon. What a God! Is that YHWH that does these things? NO! He gave them over to their chosen leader, Satan, who loves to do this stuff and make it look like that is what God does! It is not that people cannot see the principles and learn to read the language for what it means instead of what it is apparently saying. They just don't want to. We can bring evidence until the cows come home. Makes no difference to them. What good is a God who doesn't seethe like a volcano, roll up His sleeves, and get the job done? Awesome God! Thunder in His footsteps, lightning in His fists. So YOU better be believin'....

"...the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some, in order to further his own designs; and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them” (GC 589.2).

[Samie]

7 minutes ago, Kevin Straub said:

You bring all this wonderful evidence, dear APL, but do you think those who have ears and eyes will use them? These folks WANT a God who does these various cruel and unusual punishments, manipulating by His power of force, the natural world, as weapons, to strong-arm Pharaoh like a mafia "protection" scheme, to poison the stomachs of the murmuring people, and myriad other such bizarre phenomenon. What a God! Is that YHWH that does these things? NO! He gave them over to their chosen leader, Satan, who loves to do this stuff and make it look like that is what God does! It is not that people cannot see the principles and learn to read the language for what it means instead of what it is apparently saying. They just don't want to. We can bring evidence until the cows come home. Makes no difference to them. What good is a God who doesn't seethe like a volcano, roll up His sleeves, and get the job done? Awesome God! Thunder in His footsteps, lightning in His fists. So YOU better be believin'....

Wonderful discourse.

Making Sister White mean what you both want her to mean but did not? You cannot even provide any single verse from the Bible that simply hints that sin slayed Christ. And in your incapacity to provide the verse or verses that seem to not exist in the Bible, you drag Sister White into the issue.

Again,

Sin slayed Christ - according to you.  Satan is the author of sin.  Satan is the author of what slayed Christ. That makes Satan more powerful than Christ Who can do NOTHING to defend Himself from what Satan authored that slayed Him.

But, thanks be to God, No, that is NOT true. 

The Son voluntarily died - He laid down His life of His own accord.  The Father COMMANDED Him to do it

John 10:17-18   17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.  18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

And the Son OBEYED the Father.

Now, where's your verse that hints sin slayed the Son?  Still searching? I'll patiently wait.

[Kevin Straub]

3 minutes ago, Samie said:

Wonderful discourse.

Now, where's your verse that hints sin slayed the Son?  Still searching? I'll patiently wait.

Thanks.

I gave you verses. We read them differently. So, then, can't you move on? That love of argument runs strong, doesn't it?

[Samie]

And the EGW quotations you produce do not bear at all to the issue we are discussing:  "Does God have an ACTIVE participation in the final reward of the wicked?"  And the side issue we are in: "Did sin slay Christ?

Please stay focused on the issue, brothers.

And I'm waiting for you to provide the verse that hints sin slayed the Son.

[Samie]

Just now, Kevin Straub said:

Thanks.

I gave you verses. We read them differently. So, then, can't you move on? That love of argument runs strong, doesn't it?

oh yeah? Which of the verses you provide hints that sin slayed the Son. please?

[Samie]

We are mining truth from Scriptures, brother. We have to separate the gold of truth from the ores of lies. And the only test is the test of Scriptures.

Quote

“When God’s word is studied, comprehended, and obeyed, a bright light will be reflected to the world; new truths, received and acted upon, will bind us in strong bonds to Jesus. The Bible, and the Bible alone, is to be our creed, the sole bond of union; all who bow to this holy word will be in harmony. Our own views and ideas must not control our efforts. Man is fallible, but God’s word is infallible. Instead of wrangling with one another, let men exalt the Lord. Let us meet all opposition as did our Master, saying, “It is written.” Let us lift up the banner on which is inscribed, The Bible our rule of faith and discipline.” {RH December 15, 1885, Art. A, par. 16} 1SM 416.2 (Selected Messages Book 1)

 

[Samie]

So, are you able to provide any single verse that simply hints sin slayed the Son?

But if you can't, just say so. And I won't insist. We'll move on.

[Kevin Straub]

14 minutes ago, jackson said:

Yes, APL, I see your point here, and I stand corrected on the scorpions. The scorpions were unrestrained rather than sent, as i had claimed..

Whether let loose or sent though is hardly a matter of concern to those punished. The afflicted people came to know it was God's decision that allowed the punishment. But i can see how you  would make the distinction, for you are attempting to show that God never actively initiates punishment, but rather just withdraws His protection.

I notice that you seem to attribute all punishments as God just  withdrawing His protection  You never did answer the point about God's action with Uzzah, though. Who or what  killed Uzzah, if not God himself? Or who caused the flood , if not God? 

 

Let loose and sent mean the same thing. In Biblical parlance, sent means allowed, given over. There are no dual modalities of wrath. It is always the same.

God's "decision" is His judgment. It is not arbitrary. It abides by strict evaluation of the choice of the free moral agent. When the line is reached, God knows it and Satan's claims must be honored. Satan says, "they choose me." God sees that they are choosing him. God must abide by freedom of choice, for this is the foundation of love and His character and government.

Uzzah would have been given over. Satan had claim. Satan would have slain him, making it look like God did it. In this, he delights. He can easily hide behind the bible language, here, and the unsuspecting sheep see a fire breathing monster God.

Again, the principle:

"...the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some, in order to further his own designs; and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them” (GC 589.2).

In the flood, God gave the world over to the forces of nature. They worshipped the creation rather than the Creator, so they were allowed to have their God. The water mantle condensed because the power that kept it in suspension was withdrawn. There is reason to believe that events in the sun and moon did this. The integrity of the earth's mantle was also given up in the great changes that took place as God was sent away on a holiday.

So, God "causes" all of these things, in the sense employed by Bible language. But not by the application of power, rather, it is the withdrawal of power. Never arbitrary. Always by a strict code of honor.

[Samie]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

So, are you able to provide any single verse that simply hints sin slayed the Son?

But if you can't, just say so. And I won't insist. We'll move on.

I guess, both Kevin and APL have realized they are not yet prepared to give the verse that simply hints that sin slayed our Savior & Lord.  I say this because they seem willing to respond to posts other than mine. So,  I won't press the issue further. 

My next post will address the issue of the importance of the VOLUNTARY death of Christ.

[Samie]

The importance of the VOLUNTARY death of Christ:

1. Could the Father NOT just forgive people their sins without the death of His Son?

2. What did the death of Christ bring about that could have not been brought about by any other means?

3. Why is Christ the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world?

God created man in His own image and likeness and gave him the power of choice - freewill.  But he disobeyed God, chose to obey the deceiver and fell into sin.  That sin now separates him from God and he will surely die, separated from God forever.  Will the Father of love (agape) simply forgive Adam, and then just watch his child Adam wallow and drown in sin that now works in him?  Will he just fold His hands and watch man's nature morph from good to evil? His nature of love wouldn't allow that to happen.

But God was not caught unprepared. He had a plan devised before the foundation of the world, and implemented that plan when the emergency occurred in the garden of Eden.  Right then and there, that same day Adam sinned, He saved Adam in Christ, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son – the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world!  With Adam in Christ, all his descendants are born in Christ. That loving, gracious, saving act of God was manifested in the life, death, resurrection and heavenly ministry of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

God saved Adam through Christ for no other name was given under heaven for the salvation of man. Scriptures tell us that the wages of sin is death. Adam could have, by his own death that same day he sinned, paid for the sin God hates, but God would have eternally lost the sinner He loves. So God made a way whereby man may be able to not only pay for his sin but at the same time also given another shot at life eternal.

Hence, as planned before the foundation of the world, God had to fashion Adam with all his descendants in his loins, into the body of His Son, creating a new man – Christ the head, Adam and his descendants the Body. But since the sinner must die to pay for his sin, and Christ being God cannot die, the Father gave the command for His Son to voluntarily lay down His life, otherwise NOTHING can slay Him and those fashioned into His Body will simply remain unredeemed sinners, having not paid the wages of sin.  The obedient Son consented and when He – the Head – laid down His life and died, the Body died with Him - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, and all sins were paid for and forgiven.  All these, although faintly typified in the sanctuary services of the old covenant, were fully manifested on Calvary’s cross.

But alas, we all like sheep went astray (Isa 53:6). Hence God's call to repentance in the OT for people to turn from their sins and return to Him (Isa 44:22; Ezek 18:30); the same command He now wants every man every where to do (Acts 17:30); the same command Jesus made in the gospel of the kingdom that He preached (Mark 1:14, 15); the same gospel He wanted preached to the world before He comes again (Matt 24:14).

Repentance is change of mind for that which is good. Instead of doing evil, do good. IOW, overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21). Being part of His Body Who is our life (Col 3:4) and Strength (Phil 4:13), we have His power to overcome evil with good because in Him, we are more than conquerors (Rom 8:37). Christ assured that overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life and will be seated with Him on His throne even as He Himself also overcame and sat down with the Father on His throne (Rev 3:5, 21). All not blotted out will be allowed entry into the heavenly portals (Rev 21:27); all blotted out will have their portion in the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

If Kevin and APL know other answers to the 3 questions above that don't cater to the importance of the VOLUNTARY death of Christ, but that through Scriptures they can show in truth and in fact that sin indeed slayed Christ, and that their answers, or maybe those from any other reader of this thread, upon testing by Scriptures, far surpass what I have presented here, then, I am more than willing to reconsider my position.

May God be our Guide.

[Kevin Straub]

59 minutes ago, jackson said:

Kevin,

The killing of Uzzah was not to avoid having Satan eventually doing it and making it look like  God did it. The Bible is clear that God wanted Uzzah to be an example of what it means to disobey God's explicit instructions- especially in this case, which was concerned with the handling and care of sacred things.

2 Sam 6:7     And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for [his] error; and there he died by the ark of God.   6:8    And David was displeased, because the LORD had made a breach upon Uzzah: and he called the name of the place Perezuzzah to this day.   6:9    And David was afraid of the LORD that day, and said, How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?

God's angels struck down Uzzah at God's command , and it was done as a lesson to present and future generations to keep them from such wanton presumption as exhibited by Uzzah. The fear that David felt was a healthy  Godly fear and reminded him and others  to be very careful and dutiful in following God's requirements. That is the fear of the Lord that gives wisdom and protection from presumption. It is not a fear that looks at God "as a fire breathing monster " as you say.

 Uzzah was angry with the oxen, because they stumbled. He showed a manifest distrust of God, as though he who had brought the ark from the land of the Philistines, could not take care of it. Angels who attended the ark struck down Uzzah for presuming impatiently to put his hand upon the ark of God.  {4aSG 111.1} 

     "And David was afraid of the Lord that day, and said, How shall the ark of the Lord come to me? So David would not remove the ark of the Lord unto him into the city of David; but David carried it aside into the house of Obed-edom, the Gittite." David knew that he was a sinful man, and he was afraid that, like Uzzah, he should in some way be presumptuous, and call forth the wrath of God upon himself. {1SP 410.2}

This same fear of God that worketh righteousness was shown  at when God struck down of Ananias and Sapphira.  

Acts 5:4        Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.   5:5      And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

Speaking of God's wrath against Ananias and Sapphira, the SOP notes:

 

 

Infinite Wisdom saw that this signal manifestation of the wrath of God was necessary to guard the young church from becoming demoralized. Their numbers were rapidly increasing. The church would have been endangered if, in the rapid increase of converts, men and women had been added who, while professing to serve God, were worshiping mammon. This judgment testified that men cannot deceive God, that He detects the hidden sin of the heart, and that He will not be mocked. It was designed as a warning to the church, to lead them to avoid pretense and hypocrisy, and to beware of robbing God.  {AA 73.4

 

Sorry, Jackson. We know how the standard view reads the Bible and SoP language and we believe it is gross error. We define the wrath of God and all pertaining to it by the keys given in the Bible and the SoP. I've shared much of that along the way, here already. Divine Recession is it. Consistently. The contest is not about might but about right.

[APL]

21 hours ago, jackson said:

Yes, APL, I see your point here, and I stand corrected on the scorpions. The scorpions were unrestrained rather than sent, as i had claimed..

Whether let loose or sent though is hardly a matter of concern to those punished. The afflicted people came to know it was God's decision that allowed the punishment. But i can see how you  would make the distinction, for you are attempting to show that God never actively initiates punishment, but rather just withdraws His protection.

I notice that you seem to attribute all punishments as God just  withdrawing His protection  You never did answer the point about God's action with Uzzah, though. Who or what  killed Uzzah, if not God himself? Or who caused the flood , if not God? 

 

The words I quoted, were they mine?  No.  So who is putting forward the idea that you say "seems to attribute all God just withdrawing His protection?"  {GC 35-37} is one key in the writings that unlocks other statements, explains terms.  You may believe that it "is hardly a matter of concern to those punished" how they are punished.  The consequences of sin are intrinsic to sin, not an imposed penalty.  The inevitable consequences of sin is death EGW writes in The Desire of Ages chapter 79.  However, God suspended the consequences for a time so that ALL can come to an understanding of the nature of sin and its consequences, ultimately seen on the Cross. This fact is clearly brought by EGW in the totality of the Conflicts of the Ages series.  The consequences of sin is death, not execution.