Murders depicted in the Bible

[Gregory Matthews]

Kevin Straub, in an earlier post, you said:

Quote

Oh, Pam, so slow of heart to believe and dull of understanding.

This is exactly the kind of personalization, judgmentalism and characterization of motive that we ask people not to make.  Please refrain f rom such.

You may ask why I did not include another member who said basicly the same about you.  You opened the door for him to do so by saying that about Pam.  You started it.  Please refrain from such.

 

Thank you,

Gregory Matthews

By the way, if you tell me that  Jesus said the same, you will need to convince me that you are as authorative as was Jesus.

 

[Kevin Straub]

17 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Kevin Straub, in an earlier post, you said:

This is exactly the kind of personalization, judgmentalism and characterization of motive that we ask people not to make.  Please refrain f rom such.

Yu may ask why I did not include another member who said basicly the same about you.  You opened the door for him to do so by saying that about Pam.  You started it.  Please refrain from such.

 

Thank you,

Gregory Matthews

By the way, if you tell me that  Jesus said the same, you will need to convince me that you are as authorative as was Jesus.

 

Give me a break, sir. Your people here are saying all manner of such judgments.

Authority comes from the Word of God. This is what I am bringing to this discussion.

I stand by what I have written.

[Kevin Straub]

17 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Well; that will be your decision, but its just that kind of characterization of people that is not allowed Jesus would be the only One here that could say someone is "slow of heart, and dull of understanding." Neither you or anyone, has that kind of knowledge, especially since you have met none of us in person. You can give an interpretation about ideas, but not about people. The reason I have stopped posting in this topic is because you do not seem willing to just go for the ideas, instead of judging people, personally. Forum admin will likely ban you if you dont play by the rules, and they are not rules that are hard to go by. I would be interested to continue discussion with you when I see that I wont have to worry about the personal put downs.

 

No, when people start trying to understand and put down their verbal swords maybe we get somewhere. I see that folks just talk right past. You've answered them a number of times, but they ignore what you said and keep saying the same thing, like we are stupid, devil-deceived minions of Satan. How many times do I have to say we don't read that language that way? Yet more language is posted as if that will change our minds.

Look, this thing is like those 3D pics that were popular years back. It took a while to get the eyes to focus beyond the surface. On the surface there was no sense, but inside the picture everything fell into place. At first, it took practice in training the eyes to relax and go in deeper. In time, one could ignore the surface and be immediately in the reality of the inner truth. ONCE YOU KNOW WHAT IS THERE, THERE IS NO GOING BACK. No matter how many people who have never seen it keep trying to tell you there is nothing there, you know they are the ones that are stuck on the surface. They are to be pitied for their insistence that they know the truth when they don't. I am sorry that my frustration shows as it does, at times.

[Samie]

23 hours ago, Kevin Straub said:

The ones bewitched are the ones who believe righteousness involves beating. If I saw you use a rod on your kid, you'd be getting a ride in the back seat of a police cruiser.

23 hours ago, APL said:

Now who is speaking a half-truth - which is no truth at all.  Guiding children is discipline.  But striking a child to inflict pain, is that what you call discipline?  I don't. 

Of course, you don't. You both don't believe Scripture when it goes against your doctrine:

       ^NKJ Proverbs 3:11-12  

              ¹¹ My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor detest His correction;   

¹² For whom the LORD loves He corrects, Just as a father the son in whom he delights.

^NKJ Proverbs 13:24 He who spares his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.

^NKJ Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of correction will drive it far from him.

^NKJ Proverbs 23:13 Do not withhold correction from a child, For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die.

If Scriptures can't convince you both to truth, what will? God's disciplining rod?

[Samie]

On 25/01/2017 at 7:11 AM, Kevin Straub said:

If I saw you use a rod on your kid, you'd be getting a ride in the back seat of a police cruiser.

Solomon, the wisest man with his God-given wisdom, sees God's rod of correction differently from how Kevin sees it.

Am just amazed Kevin insists he's the one right.  Wiser than Solomon?

[Samie]

4 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

That aint right

I respect your view, brother.

[LifeHiscost]

On 1/6/2017 at 11:01 PM, The Wanderer said:

What method do you use to determine God's character?

    7“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.” ...John 14

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

[Samie]

On 07/01/2017 at 1:26 PM, Kevin Straub said:

I am absolutely convinced, along with thousands, that we have not been reading the Bible correctly, even Adventists, yes. Shocking to many. Our Lord saw this idea would be highly resisted because He said He is standing at the door and knocking to come in. That means He is not inside, people. Our prophet has said that the we have "lost sight of Jesus." The righteousness of God is seen in Him. John tells us that the very message He came to bring to us is that God is all light and no darkness in Him (1 John 1:5). He also defines that light as the animating force of humanity (John 1:4, 9). There is no death in God. It is not in Him to give and He does not give it. Many will close their minds against this truth without any further investigation, thinking it preposterous. The Bible language difficulties can be overcome with a few lessons. The heart is another matter, for most of us desire vengeance of the human kind and unless willing to crucify self, we will not be able to see God as He truly is.

If you believe there is no death in God, why do you believe with APL that sin slayed the Son of God?

If sin slayed Christ, as you believe, then sin brought death to Him in Whom there is no death.

Christ is mightier than Satan. Satan is the author of sin. Sin slayed Christ.  Hence, Satan slayed Christ through sin, making Satan mightier than Christ Who was powerless to prevent Satan from slaying Him.

What explanation can you give for the contradiction?

[Kevin Straub]

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

thats actually a good question

It is? Why?

Christ laid down His life voluntarily. He took sin into Himself and died under its load of guilt. You can say that Satan killed Him, yes, through the principle of sin, which is separation from the Lifegiver. But Christ is mightier, no doubt about it. The Saviour I have is alive today.

1 Cor.  15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 
 15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory? 
 15:56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law. 
 15:57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 

[APL]

4 hours ago, LifeHiscost said:

    7“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.” ...John 14

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

And here in lays the problem - people do not believe the revelation of the Character of God that Jesus revealed.  They cannot reconcile the view of God in the Old Testament with the view that Jesus revealed.  They can't believe that in 33 short years was enough of a revelation of God.  But that was the purpose of Christ's mission - to make known the Character of God.  And most people, including many Adventists, reject that view.  Sad. 

[Kevin Straub]

29 minutes ago, APL said:

And here in lays the problem - people do not believe the revelation of the Character of God that Jesus revealed.  They cannot reconcile the view of God in the Old Testament with the view that Jesus revealed.  They can't believe that in 33 short years was enough of a revelation of God.  But that was the purpose of Christ's mission - to make known the Character of God.  And most people, including many Adventists, reject that view.  Sad. 

Really sad. Just like the Jews.... and their end will be the same, with the destruction of their "city" by the Roman armies. It has already been underway for some time, but will become much more apparent in a short while.

[LifeHiscost]

12 hours ago, APL said:

And here in lays the problem - people do not believe the revelation of the Character of God that Jesus revealed.  They cannot reconcile the view of God in the Old Testament with the view that Jesus revealed.  They can't believe that in 33 short years was enough of a revelation of God.  But that was the purpose of Christ's mission - to make known the Character of God.  And most people, including many Adventists, reject that view.  Sad. 

   The idea that certain portions of the Bible cannot be understood has led to neglect of some of its most important truths. The fact needs to be emphasized, and often repeated, that the mysteries of the Bible are not such because God has sought to conceal truth, but because our own weakness or ignorance makes us incapable of comprehending or appropriating truth. The limitation is not in His purpose, but in our capacity. Of those very portions of Scripture often passed by as impossible to be understood, God desires us to understand as much as our minds are capable of receiving. “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God,” that we may be “thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”

2 Timothy 3:16, 17 ..............   It is impossible for any human mind to exhaust even one truth or promise of the Bible. One catches the glory from one point of view, another from another point; yet we can discern only gleamings. The full radiance is beyond our vision. {Ed 171.1}

Is it not marvelous beyond our scope of understanding, that God would deign to leave us gleams of heavenly light through a messenger akin to prophets of old revealed in the old testament? Many are willing to allow their own limited intelligence forego God's willingness to give gifts.

9“Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets....Matthew 7

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

[Kevin Straub]

13 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Well; lets look at the question. You were asked by another poster. This other poster put it like this:

I thought that said poster asked a good question or two that deserves an explanation. I will look forward to hearing what your explanation is on that.

It is also possible that the poster's line of reasoning is not quite right. It is not easy for us mere mortals to know everything there is about God, and His character, and how this character affects His actions with us in the here and now. I appreciate the parts of your comments where you talk about the theme "God is love." I too see it this way . Why? Because the Bible tells us. (1 John 4:8) And what I find even more strengthening is that the Bible also says Love NEVER fails!"  (1 Cor 13:8). We can see how this is true, through the Crucifixion, and the resurrection of Jesus. As it partially explains in Isaiah 53, most people are repulsed at the idea of Jesus being crucified on a cross, a method used only for the worst of criminals. I think people are asking, why is this kind of horrible death called "Love?" Why is it a part of God's character, and life? You made a statement saying "there is no death in God," and at this point I am not sure if the Bible actually says it that way; it may or it may not. But I know there is a text that says "in Him there is no darkness." (1 John 1:5)

So how do we explain to people these actions in the Bible that Jesus did. Said actions involved killing, cruciifixtion, and torture.  God GAVE his Son over to this horrible cruelty. He God somehow allowed, permitted or promoted this vicious cruelty. And He also permitted various and horrible things to happen to me, as I outlined above. And yet, I do not disagree with you when you say God is all love and there is no darkness in Him. I am sure its something that a lot of good folks here on the forum would appreciate someJer of the insight that you have. You have obviously thought a lot about this subject, and I am willing to listen. How would you explain the questions by Samie, and also leading up to some of the points I raised? Remember, I also agree that God is love. I do not disagree with that. (1 John 5:11-12)

Light and Dark

When John informs that God is 100% light and that there is no darkness in Him and that "this, then, is the message," we had better sit up and take note. What does John mean by light and darkness? Why don't we ask him? In his gospel he writes:

John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 
John  1:9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 

John is equating the "light of men" with "the life" that was in Christ. The corollary of this would be that death would be the equivalent of darkness. Now, one can argue that the literal meaning of these words has to do with understanding and illumination regarding truth. John also reports the words of Jesus "I am the way, the truth, and the life." Therefore, truth and life are actually inseparable. There seems to be here merging of the concepts of light and life in opposition to darkness and death. To not have Jesus is to not have the light and to not have Jesus means to not have life (1 John 5:11, 12; John 3:16-18). 

The Bible equates darkness with the "shadow of death" in numerous instances. Job is fond of the phrase "darkness and the shadow of death." Others say it, too:

Ps. 107:13 Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, [and] he saved them out of their distresses. 
 107:14 He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder. 

Isa. 9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined. (also quoted by Matthew, applying to Christ)

Jer. 13:16 Give glory to the LORD your God, before he cause darkness, and before your feet stumble upon the dark mountains, and, while ye look for light, he turn it into the shadow of death, [and] make [it] gross darkness. 

As an aside, notice how in Jeremiah it says of God "before he cause darkness"? Well, isn't is a contradiction to have John saying there is none of it in Him but Jeremiah says He "causes" it? This is similar to texts where the Lord says He will "bring evil" (e.g., 2 Samuel 17:14; 2 Kings 22:16; Jer. 4:6). This is obviously the language issue. God is said to do that which He "lets."

We believe the Bible fully supports and Jesus' teaching fully supports the concept that God only does good and never brings death. He said it plainly:

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly. 

Luke 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw [this], they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 
 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 
 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save [them]. And they went to another village. 

What is Love?

In the year 1996, I heard Dwight Nelson say, "LOVE, in order to BE LOVE, must be FREE." That set my mind on a train of thought which has kept rolling and never switched tracks. I knew it was true, but I did not know how to reconcile the Bible language. I set to a program of prayer, claiming the promise for wisdom and understanding. Let no man say God did not answer my prayer. The glory is God's, but the gifts belong to us.

James 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 
 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren. 
 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

When Dwight told us love had to be free, I realized that the great controversy could not utilize the power of might at any point. God could not interfere with the demonstration of His righteousness and His government, founded upon the principles of love, by coming in here and there with the exercise of force to turn the tide in His favor. If He were to fight like that, Satan's claims could not be exposed as spurious, for all that would be proven was that God has bigger physical power. Nobody, not even Satan argues this point (Job 1:10-12 [note also that God's hand stretching for to 'touch' Job is DR--Satan was permitted to touch Job]). The principles themselves have to stand and they have to stand upon their own merits. Further, humans know that it is not possible to gain heart loyalty, respect and love by threat of punishment. A man cannot think to court a woman and win her love if she would know that disloyalty would end in her death, by his own hand. Yet, we think that is okay for God to be like that. Why? John is clear that love cannot properly develop if fear of punishment is in the picture:

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. (NIV says, "because fear has to do with punishment.)

Yes, there is a punishment, but it is a natural consequence of removing God and replacing Him with an idol, which is nothing. Idolatry is sin. The principle of sin is the rejection of God for our own way. There is no need, ever, for God to come in and impose any kind of pain or loss for the creature's folly in rejection of Him. The very act of rejection will automatically punish the creature.

The entire great controversy is running its course until these principles will at last be understood beyond any shadow of doubt that it is sin that destroys and not God. The absence of God brings cessation of existence and the creature must be free to choose God or not. That is why it is said:

Prov. 8:36 But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death. 

It is Satan's primary struggle to obscure these facts. Once we know where he is focused in the battle for our minds, we know where our attention must also be directed, to avoid deception, remembering that the enemy is a potent foe, well able to deceive every one who does not find the truth about God in Jesus Christ.

Ellen White informs us from the Source of light:

"It is Satan's constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the great controversy. His sophistry lessens the obligation of the divine law and gives men license to sin. At the same time he causes them to cherish false conceptions of God so that they regard Him with fear and hate rather than with love. The cruelty inherent in his own character is attributed to the Creator; it is embodied in systems of religion and expressed in modes of worship. Thus the minds of men are blinded, and Satan secures them as his agents to war against God. By perverted conceptions of the divine attributes, heathen nations were led to believe human sacrifices necessary to secure the favor of Deity; and horrible cruelties have been perpetrated under the various forms of idolatry."  {GC 569.1} 

The Cross

GC 569.1 speaks of the cruelty inherent in Satan's character. This was seen at the cross. People are repulsed at the cross for a good reason. Where they get in trouble is in thinking that this was God's idea, as though God chose the manner of death and would have orchestrated all the suffering as somehow that suffering pays for the offense of our sin, which made Him very angry and if only He could find a suitable victim capable of suffering to the degree that would bring satisfaction, could we be pardoned. Thus, it is said that "cruelty...is embodied in systems of religion and expressed in modes of worship" and in this way minds are made dark and brought into rebellion against the true God.

You correctly state that gave Him over, allowed Him to go through this suffering. He did not "promote" it. Satan promoted it. This is where we have to start to separate ideas. The cross is a demonstration of love and it is a demonstration of cruelty. It is the instrument by which the principles of both kingdoms are put on display. Rather than talk any more about this here, I will simply attach two chapters from our book "As He Is," to give further light on the matter. Enjoy.

    

 

 

 

21_The Way of the Cross.doc

20_The Mystery-Unfolding Cross.doc

[joeb]

I have been thinking on this thread as I've read it and I have three scenarios with which I will
illustrate my ideas. These are not perfect illustrations but they address the basics of the theology
being put forward on this thread. I am not going to play dueling quotes but go to the heart of the
matter for I always like to break down issues to their simplist terms to understand them fully. It's
also the only way to get past all the verbiage being thrown around.

In these scenarios I will address moral, ethical, and legal responsibility.

In this first scenario I am armed with a Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 Magnum revolver and am carrying a
smart phone. I am walking down a street at night and about a block ahead of me there are three men
walking in the same direction. Suddenly two of the men attack the third man and begin coldly,
brutally, beating the man to death. I don't want to be seen so I step into the shadows of a doorway
and watch them beat the man to death. Now, I could stop this for I'm pretty good with my revolver
and it has a lot of “stopping power” but I choose not to. Or, I could call the cops on my cell phone
and report what is going on. But, I choose not to do that either. I just take a video of the beating
and raise no alarm. After the man being beaten dies and the two men who beat him to death leave I go
on my way and never say a word to anyone about what I witnessed and took a video of.

What do you think of me for acting in the manner in which I acted? Was I a good man with love in my
heart for my fellow man? Am I morally and legally free from all responsibility in the beating death
of the victim?

In this second scenario I'm a very wealthy man with three sons who, as they have become very wealthy
from being partners in the family business, have lost all sense of morality. They are using the
legitimate profits of the family business to finance dealing drugs like herion and meth. They have
bought off the local and state cops and prosecutors and are killing anyone who gets in their way.
They pass their wives and daughters around among the three of them and are molesting their sons too.
In addition to the sexual molestation they beat their wives and children for personal amusement.
They have gotten to the point that they have become very sadistic. In other words, these three men
have become exceedingly evil and when I have remonstrated with them they have threatened my life.
I've gone to the authorities and nothing will be done by them. Nobody is going to touch these sons
of mine for the evil they are doing. So, in desperation, I do some searching on the internet and
find “Murders R Us” and ask them to kill my sons. They do this for me. Some time later I am thinking
about this entire situation and I am grateful “Murders R Us” killed them and I didn't have to. In my
mind I am completely free of all moral responsibility for the death of my sons as someone else
killed them. What do you think of me and my moral stand? Am I free of moral, legal and ethical
responsibility in the killing of my sons?

In this third scenario I am a father with rebellious children. I really don't like to discipline
them because I'm far too loving, i.e. sentimental, for that, but they are getting so out of hand I'm
desperate. In my desperation I finally light on a solution. I have a next door neighbor who, just
for fun, beats his wife and kids whenever he feels like it, likes to pull the wings off of
butterflies, regularly kicks his dog half to death and once poured gasoline on his cat and then lit
it on fire. In other words he is very sadistic. He loves inflicting pain on others. I call him and
ask him to come over and make arrangements with him to discipline my children for me. I tell him he
can do anything he wants for an hour, but he cannot kill them. After I make these arrangements with
him I'm really relieved that I won't have to ever think about disciplining my children myself again.
Having the sadist next door do it for me seems like a really moral solution to me and it sets my
heart at ease.

Then I call my children in and tell them that since I love them so much that I cannot bear to
discipline them I'm turning them over to our absolutely sadistic neighbor for an hour of discipline.
I will go into my bedroom, close the door, and turn on the stereo and put on my headphones so I
won't see or hear anything while our neighbor will “discipline” them in any way he likes and that
from now on this will be how I will discipline them every time they disobey me.

Just how do you think my children will view me? Do you think they will view me as loving, kind, and
just, or will they fear me and see me as some kind of abusive sadistic loon myself? In this scenario
do you see me as loving, kind, and just? Just how do you view my character in this scenario?

The three scenarios above are Divine Recession put into human terms.... This theology is a monstrous
attack upon the character of God under the guise of defending God's character.

God is the ruler of the universe. He has a government to run and a universe to protect. His
government is based upon the rule of law for that is the only just(righteous) way to rule in any
government. Rule of law is not about just ruling by laws. It is setting up laws that protect
everyone and which everyone can understand, and as such act within those laws in all their
interactions with their fellow creatures. It is also about making sure everyone understands what the
penalties are for the violation of these laws.

These laws apply to one and all. No one is exempt from them, including the persons who set up the
laws and administer them.

I can already hear the cries of legalism, but that is a fallacy. God's laws are love and because
they are we are all required to love our fellow creatures. God's laws describe what love is in
practical terms. In the negative terms of the 10 commandments God lays out what we cannot do and
love both Him and our fellow man at the same time. The 10 commandments also tell us how we can
become obedient to Him in all respects.

As such God has both the moral right and responsibility to administer punishment for the violation
of His laws. It is the only way He can remain just and loving towards the entire universe at all
times. We humans are not the only ducks on the pond, so to speak, and not everything God does
towards us is because of us alone. As Paul says, we are an example, a show, to the universe.

In Deuteronomy God laid out a set of laws and told the COI that if they obeyed them He would
actively bless them materially and spiritually, and laid out exactly what those blessings would be.
He also told them that if they disobeyed these laws he would actively punish them for their
disobedience. He laid out different levels of punishment for different levels of disobedience and He
specified exactly what those punishments would be. He then told them that if at any time during
their disobedience they repented and turned back to obedience that He would forgive them and once
more begin blessing them and remove the curse they were under. That is the rule of law. Everyone
understood exactly what was required of them, agreed to all the conditions, and had the choice as to
how they would behave.

God is a God who delights in mercy, but without an actively administered justice there can be no
mercy for without the active administration of justice the word mercy becomes meaningless.
Therefore, to be merciful God must also actively administer justice, or in other words, discipline.

 

[Green Cochoa]

14 minutes ago, joeb said:

God is a God who delights in mercy, but without an actively administered justice there can be no
mercy for without the active administration of justice the word mercy becomes meaningless.
Therefore, to be merciful God must also actively administer justice, or in other words, discipline.

Very well summarized, joeb, and I like that last quote especially.  It is true that mercy is pointless if there were no other option--in fact, it is nothing more than weak permissiveness.  The fact that God will also discipline and bring justice is what makes mercy take on meaning.

[joeb]

Wanderer,

i'd like to address the question you asked about what you've suffered in your life.

I have suffered intensely myself.  I was rejected by my entire immediate family from about the age of 5 or 6 onwards.  I have been physically, emotionally, and sexually abused by family members.  I won't go into specific instances here but my life growing up was an absolute nightmare.  It caused me to ask, WHY?  Why did God put me in a family that hated me?  Why did my old man hate me so much he blamed me for everything that ever went wrong in/to the family.  Why did my brothers hate me?  

I have had all those questions answered by God over the years, with the final why being answered only less than a month ago. 

Why did God put me in a position to suffer?  Because I truly believe it was the only way He could get me into heaven.  I'm stubborn, very stubborn, and God had to get me to the place where I could look only to Him.  I couldn't count on my intellect, my family, friends, nothing,  to get me out of where I ended up.  I had to set aside all hope of making it out of the hole I was in and just trust God and His word.  When I did that He worked miracles in my life.  He has taught me things I would never have learned otherwise: faith in Him, trust in the Bible, trust in the SOP, distrust of myself, distrust of my own intellect, distrust of human intellect period(in all things spiritual), 

As I look back over my life I can now say I wouldn't have it any other way than it was.  All things truly do work together for good for those who love God.  I'm grateful for what I've experienced.  I wasn't always that way, but I am now, and have been for years.  I was blessed incredibly for God has taught me things I would have never been able to learn if I had not suffered like I did. 

[joeb]

19 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

Very well summarized, joeb, and I like that last quote especially.  It is true that mercy is pointless if there were no other option--in fact, it is nothing more than weak permissiveness.  The fact that God will also discipline and bring justice is what makes mercy take on meaning.

Thanks, Green Cochea.  I've enjoyed reading your posts on this thread, and elsewhere. 

[Samie]

On 26/01/2017 at 9:18 AM, Samie said:

If you believe there is no death in God, why do you believe with APL that sin slayed the Son of God?

If sin slayed Christ, as you believe, then sin brought death to Him in Whom there is no death.

Christ is mightier than Satan. Satan is the author of sin. Sin slayed Christ.  Hence, Satan slayed Christ through sin, making Satan mightier than Christ Who was powerless to prevent Satan from slaying Him.

What explanation can you give for the contradiction?

Still remains not directly addressed.

[Kevin Straub]

On ‎2017‎-‎01‎-‎24 at 10:59 PM, APL said:

The the pot calling the kettle black? 

 

When presenting the obvious truths that connect together, Green has often resisted it quite strongly.  He has rejected the connection for example with divorce.  Did God want divorce?  No.  Did God give laws for divorce?  Yes.  Does this proved God wanted divorce?  No.  Did Israel fight wars?  Yes.  Did God want Israel to fight?  No.  Did God give commands on how to fight?  Yes.  Does this prove that God wanted Israel to fight?  No.  Why did God then deal with the people in this way, giving laws for divorce, commands for how to fight and many more?  Because of the hardness of their heart.  The only one that looks good in all this is God.  And with all the commands on divorce, and war, etc., how did it ultimately end up for Israel?  Not very well.  They crucified their Redeemer, their Savior and Friend.  As Jeremiah wrote, they went backwards not forwards after leaving Egypt.  And yet we hold up Israel as be beacon of light, when it is only a beacon as to how not to ultimately go. Did Israel gain the promised land?  Just look at the world today, then answer is no.

APR, your response is SO apropos. Thank you! Of course! How could anyone ever think to appeal to the OT "God of war" paradigm, who commanded them to slash, destroy, and hang the heads of defectors from the church out in the sun? This is what is thought to be a God with grit, a God who "does something about it." But look at Israel in history. How did that work out for them? Those who learn nothing from history are doomed to repeat it. Do you think Adventists who hold up this model of ancient Israel are going to come to the time of crisis and all of the sudden become pacifist? No way! They are going to take arms to protect themselves and their loved ones.

[JoeMo]

God does kill; and God commanded Israel to do so.

" However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. ¹⁷ Completely destroy^[a] them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. ¹⁸ Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God." (Deut. 20:16-18)

"When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you— ² and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally.^[a] Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy." Deut. 7: 1-2)

Why these 7 people groups?  Because they were the remnant of the Nephilim (giants), and Rephaim; both of which were a hybrid race created by the union of fallen angels and human women.  Had they been allowed to survive, they would have destroyed humanity.  The Israelites did not completely destroy the Canaanites, and the Nephilim survived through the Philistines (coastal Canaanites).  They were finally wiped out when David killed Goliath and his army killed Goliath's brothers.

[Samie]

Will God have an active participation in the final reward of the wicked?  APL & Kevin Strauss say no.  The Bible says otherwise:

^KJV Matthew 16:27   For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

 

^KJV Romans 2:5-11   ⁵ But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;  ⁶ Who will render to every man according to his deeds:  ⁷ To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:  ⁸ But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,  ⁹ Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;  ¹⁰ But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:  ¹¹ For there is no respect of persons with God

 

^NAS Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

And for the rewarding of all born into this world to be carried out, all in the graves – both righteous and wicked – will be resurrected:

^KJV John 5:28-29   ²⁸ Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,  ²⁹ And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

^KJV Acts 24:15   And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

With all dead resurrected, all will see Christ coming in the clouds of heaven, each one physically present to receive his own due reward:

^KJV Daniel 12: 1-2   And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.  ² And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

^KJV Revelation 1:7   Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

What prevents APL & Kevin from believing such plain pronouncements of Scriptures?

[Green Cochoa]

2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Why these 7 people groups?  Because they were the remnant of the Nephilim (giants), and Rephaim; both of which were a hybrid race created by the union of fallen angels and human women.  Had they been allowed to survive, they would have destroyed humanity.  The Israelites did not completely destroy the Canaanites, and the Nephilim survived through the Philistines (coastal Canaanites).  They were finally wiped out when David killed Goliath and his army killed Goliath's brothers.

We're straying off topic here, but sorry, there was never any such thing as breeding with angels.  Those who make such a claim usually base it on a passage in Genesis chapter 6 pertaining to a people group that was entirely wiped out in the Flood, so even if it had occurred, how would they have remained?  The fact is, angels "neither marry, nor are given in marriage" according to Jesus' own words.  We don't have male and female angels.  We don't have baby angels.  If we did, then where are all the doctrines about baby devils, and demon whores, etc.?  Angels are not created in the same fashion in which we are with the ability to procreate.  Mrs. White makes clear that the passage in Genesis which has been translated in the KJV as the "sons of God" refers to the righteous lineage of Seth, whereas the "daughters of men" refers to the worldly/wicked descendants of the murderer Cain.  While it is not worth arguing over this side point, I happen to believe that the "mark" put upon Cain was blackness, and that it extended to his children.  Apparently Ham (a "son of God") was one of those who married a descendant of Cain, and his son's name was Canaan--a forebear of the Canaanites.  To this son was given the curse that he would be a servant to Japheth and to Shem (see Gen. 9:25-27).  Few would argue that this prophecy has not been fulfilled upon the black people throughout history until now.  Note: I do NOT believe that because it was foretold it should be upheld by Christians today.  We should work to free all from slavery of any kind.  As for the giants whom David and his men slew, they were simply men of great stature.  Adam and Eve were giants compared to us: that was part of the original genetics.  Over time, and perhaps after eating flesh meats following the Flood, our lifespans and size have both diminished.  I, personally, attribute this in part to some significant atmospheric changes at the time of the Flood as well that altered the ratio of oxygen, reducing it from about 36% to 21%.

God's commands to destroy the Canaanites had nothing to do with their size nor race.  It had everything to do with their moral condition, their crimes and character.

[APL]

20 hours ago, joeb said:

God is a God who delights in mercy, but without an actively administered justice there can be no
mercy for without the active administration of justice the word mercy becomes meaningless.
Therefore, to be merciful God must also actively administer justice, or in other words, discipline.

Look at the scenarios you proposed.  Substitute God in place of you. 

 

20 hours ago, joeb said:

What do you think of me for acting in the manner in which I acted? Was I a good man with love in my
heart for my fellow man? Am I morally and legally free from all responsibility in the beating death
of the victim?

God Is responsible for the beating death?  If not, why not?  He certainly is more powerful than you!

 

20 hours ago, joeb said:

What do you think of me and my moral stand? Am I free of moral, legal and ethical
responsibility in the killing of my sons?

Are we not all children of God?  Is God free of "moral, legal and ethical" responsibility? 

 

20 hours ago, joeb said:

The three scenarios above are Divine Recession put into human terms.... This theology is a monstrous
attack upon the character of God under the guise of defending God's character.

Yes, and who is doing the attack?  Was God not powerful enough to intervene in the scenarios you presented?  What you are doing it charging God with being immoral and unethical, whether you think so or now but substitution of God your "you" charges God with being as you imply.

When Abraham and Sarah took the situation into their own hands to make things work out right, how did things turn out?  Are we seeing the damage from Abraham's actions today?  Violation of God's Law has consequences far beyond anything we can imagine. 

20 hours ago, joeb said:

God is a God who delights in mercy, but without an actively administered justice there can be no
mercy for without the active administration of justice the word mercy becomes meaningless.
Therefore, to be merciful God must also actively administer justice, or in other words, discipline.

 

After he had sinned, his power to deceive was the more deceptive, and the unveiling of his character was the more difficult, because of the exalted position he had held with the Father. {DA 758.4}

 

God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. {DA 759.1} ...

 

The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Romans 3:26. {DA 762.2}

 

God's love has been expressed in His justice no less than in His mercy. Justice is the foundation of His throne, and the fruit of His love. It had been Satan's purpose to divorce mercy from truth and justice. He sought to prove that the righteousness of God's law is an enemy to peace. But Christ shows that in God's plan they are indissolubly joined together; the one cannot exist without the other. "Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other." Psalm 85:10. {DA 762.3}

 

By His life and His death, Christ proved that God's justice did not destroy His mercy, but that sin could be forgiven, and that the law is righteous, and can be perfectly obeyed. Satan's charges were refuted. God had given man unmistakable evidence of His love. {DA 762.4}

 

Another deception was now to be brought forward. Satan declared that mercy destroyed justice, that the death of Christ abrogated the Father's law. Had it been possible for the law to be changed or abrogated, then Christ need not have died. But to abrogate the law would be to immortalize transgression, and place the world under Satan's control. It was because the law was changeless, because man could be saved only through obedience to its precepts, that Jesus was lifted up on the cross. Yet the very means by which Christ established the law Satan represented as destroying it. Here will come the last conflict of the great controversy between Christ and Satan. {DA 762.5} [even misinterpreting God's Law: Sunday for Sabbath; Killing it not really killing; divorce/serial monogamy is OK, etc]

 

That the law which was spoken by God's own voice is faulty, that some specification has been set aside, is the claim which Satan now puts forward. It is the last great deception that he will bring upon the world. He needs not to assail the whole law; if he can lead men to disregard one precept, his purpose is gained. [Sabbath for the protestant churches, killing for the professed remnant church] For "whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." James 2:10. By consenting to break one precept, men are brought under Satan's power. By substituting human law for God's law, Satan will seek to control the world. This work is foretold in prophecy. Of the great apostate power which is the representative of Satan, it is declared, "He shall speak great words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand." Daniel 7:25. {DA 763.1}

 

Men will surely set up their laws to counterwork the laws of God. [war is OK; self-defense is fair; LOVE your enemy? No, kill those that rob you and hurt you. Turn the cheek? It is our right to defend ourselves. Guns are God's given right to defend ourselves. SMH] They will seek to compel the consciences of others, and in their zeal to enforce these laws they will oppress their fellow men. {DA 763.2}

 

The warfare against God's law, which was begun in heaven, will be continued until the end of time. [And what was that? Sabbath? OR???] Every man will be tested. Obedience or disobedience is the question to be decided by the whole world. All will be called to choose between the law of God and the laws of men. Here the dividing line will be drawn. There will be but two classes [only two classes of people in the end] Every character will be fully developed; and all will show whether they have chosen the side of loyalty or that of rebellion. {DA 763.3}

 

Then the end will come. God will vindicate His law and deliver His people. Satan and all who have joined him in rebellion will be cut off. Sin and sinners will perish, root and branch, (Malachi 4:1),--Satan the root, and his followers the branches. The word will be fulfilled to the prince of evil, "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; . . . I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Then "the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be;" "they shall be as though they had not been." Ezekiel 28:6-19; Psalm 37:10; Obadiah 16. {DA 763.4}

 

This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. [Cause and Effect] God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Ephesians 4:18; Proverbs 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory [God's Character - see ] of Him who is love will destroy them. {DA 764.1}

 

At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. [The natural consequence of sin is death - If Satan had been left to reap the consequences of sin, he would have died, but the on looking universe would not have understood that this was the INEVITABLE RESULT OF SIN!] A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}

 

But not so when the great controversy shall be ended. [Why? Christ showed us why!] Then, the plan of redemption having been completed, the character of God is revealed to all created intelligences. The precepts of His law are seen to be perfect and immutable. Then sin has made manifest its nature, [its nature is that it destroys and kills the sinner] Satan his character. Then the extermination of sin will vindicate God's love and establish His honor before a universe of beings who delight to do His will, and in whose heart is His law. {DA 764.3}

 

Well, then, might the angels rejoice as they looked upon the Saviour's cross; for though they did not then understand all, they knew that the destruction of sin and Satan was forever made certain, that the redemption of man was assured, and that the universe was made eternally secure. Christ Himself fully comprehended the results of the sacrifice made upon Calvary. To all these He looked forward when upon the cross He cried out, "It is finished." {DA 764.4}

[Samie]

2 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

We're straying off topic here, but sorry, there was never any such thing as breeding with angels.  Those who make such a claim usually base it on a passage in Genesis chapter 6 pertaining to a people group that was entirely wiped out in the Flood, so even if it had occurred, how would they have remained?  The fact is, angels "neither marry, nor are given in marriage" according to Jesus' own words.  We don't have male and female angels.  We don't have baby angels.  If we did, then where are all the doctrines about baby devils, and demon whores, etc.?  Angels are not created in the same fashion in which we are with the ability to procreate.  Mrs. White makes clear that the passage in Genesis which has been translated in the KJV as the "sons of God" refers to the righteous lineage of Seth, whereas the "daughters of men" refers to the worldly/wicked descendants of the murderer Cain. 

Happy Sabbath, Administrators;

I was trying to start a new thread to address Green's post I quoted above, but persistently failed in 4 attempts. Browser tells me that a configuration or server error occurred, and displays "Something went wrong. Please try again." and displays Error Code EX0.  I tried sending a message via the Contact Us button but an email came informing me that the email address stan@adventist.com has closed and that I need to adjust my software.

Hence, this message via this thread.

Thanks for helping me in this matter.

[Kevin Straub]

On ‎2017‎-‎01‎-‎26 at 5:51 PM, joeb said:

I have been thinking on this thread as I've read it and I have three scenarios with which I will
illustrate my ideas. These are not perfect illustrations but they address the basics of the theology
being put forward on this thread. I am not going to play dueling quotes but go to the heart of the
matter for I always like to break down issues to their simplist terms to understand them fully. It's
also the only way to get past all the verbiage being thrown around.

In these scenarios I will address moral, ethical, and legal responsibility.

...

Your scenarios are all human reasoning from a human paradigm of human governance based upon rewards and punishments. It is behaviourism, based upon deterrence. It will never produce a universe free from fear or from danger of rebellion arising again. Furthermore, it is unbiblical, for God has stated unequivocally how punishment comes.

Deut. 31:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go [to be] among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. 
 31:17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God [is] not among us? 
 31:18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evils which they shall have wrought, in that they are turned unto other gods.