Murders depicted in the Bible

[Samie]

I can see the good intention in Kevin's and APL's position about the single modality of God's wrath. Sadly, that position has led them to eventually say that sin slayed Christ, depicting Christ powerless over what Satan has authored.  That's making Satan more powerful than the Creator, being able to slay his Creator with the evil principle he authored.

And that, to me, is simply not Bible truth.  What or who can slay the Creator Who spoke everything into existence?  His evil-turned creature? No way, sirs.

Sin did not and cannot slay Christ through Whom God made the worlds. Christ laid down his life, VOLUNTARILY. 

John 10:15, 17-18  

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

The Father commanded His Son to do it. And the obedient Son obeyed. 

That in no way does any harm to the power of right; it even reinforces it.

[Kevin Straub]

4 hours ago, jackson said:

Kevin,

I am not just posting to you, for you have too much invested of self in your doctrine to seriously consider what I might say.. There may be others out there, however, who may be confused about the true nature of God, and I do not want them to look at God  as leaving us to our sins as we choose. He chastens and rebukes those He loves  so that they have a healthy fear of the results of disobedience. And, yes, He will actually punish and even destroy at times those who have gone beyond the bounds of his forbearance. These acts of His wrath are a blessing to many others who see, hear or read about them - Those who might otherwise presume too much upon His mercy and neglect His warnings and threats. 

Many praise the minister who dwells on the grace and mercy and love of Jesus, who is not particular to enforce duties and obligations, who does not warn of the danger of hypocrisy, or present the terrors of God's wrath.  {TDG 55.2}

Yes, God will leave us to our sins as we shall choose, by degree we shall suffer from sin and ultimately will suffer the ultimate "penalty" in second death, should we not seek restoration through faith in the merits of Christ.

Isa.  57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name [is] Holy; I dwell in the high and holy [place], with him also [that is] of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones. 
 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls [which] I have made. 
 57:17 For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart. 
 57:18 I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners. 
 57:19 I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to [him that is] far off, and to [him that is] near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him. 
 57:20 But the wicked [are] like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. 
 57:21 [There is] no peace, saith my God, to the wicked. 

Hos. 9:12b ...yea, woe also to them when I depart from them! 

Hos.  4:17 Ephraim [is] joined to idols: let him alone. 

But if they shut their eyes to their own sins, as did the Jews, and choose their own ways, the Lord will give them up to blindness of mind, and hardness of heart, that they cannot discern the things of the Spirit of God.  {2SP 52.4} 

But not to dwell on the dark side: God is merciful and will not easily let go--

Said the angel, "God leaves not His people, even if they err. He turns not from them in wrath for any light thing. If they sin they have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." {HP 119.2}
This Advocate pleads for sinners and the Father accepts His prayer. He turns not away the request of His beloved Son. He who so loved you as to give His own life for you will not turn you off and forsake you unless you willfully, determinedly forsake Him to serve the world and Satan. Jesus loves to have you come to Him just as you are, hopeless and helpless, and cast yourself upon His all- abundant mercy and believe that He will receive you just as you are. {HP 119.3}


Jackson it is not fair of you to say I have self in this picture. You do not know me nor my heart and have no way of knowing such a thing. What you are accusing me of is not self but conviction, confidence and a sealing into the message. 1 John 1:5. I do not believe in the God that you or the standard view presents. I believe this to be a picture of God that comes from Satan, who is dressed up in Satan's own attributes. We do not see the "terrors of God's wrath" in the same way as you do, but interpret these words and phrasings according to the keys that decode the language of Divine wrath and define it as Divine Recession, e.g., Deut. 31:16-18. We are to be afraid of our own selves, our carnal hearts, with the desire for revenge, afraid of sin. God will give us over to the results of sin, which is to think to live our own way, without reference to God or His law and we will surely lose eternal life because of that, and can surely be cut short in this life, also. We believe it is always cause and effect, never God's exertion of power. Rather His cessation of exerting power is what causes harm, for His role is ever that of Creator, Sustainer, Protector, and Healer. His strange act is to stand down from the roles that He consistently exemplifies. His "execution of wrath" is always standing down. When Satan exerts power it is always to destroy. God's power is in His ability to restrain the forces of chaos and evil and His justice is to hand over to those forces as the result of free choice of the free moral agent to reject Him and His services, through choosing unrighteousness and self. These truths are the core of the great controversy:

The Great Controversy is as much about the Character of God as it is about negating the law of God

 

“Jesus Christ is the Restorer. Satan, the apostate, is the destroyer. HERE is the conflict between the Prince of life and the prince of this world, the power of darkness” (CTr 247.2).

 

"By the same misrepresentation of the character of God as he had practiced in heaven, causing Him to be regarded as severe and tyrannical, Satan induced man to sin. And having succeeded thus far, he declared that God's unjust restrictions had led to man's fall, as they had led to his own rebellion” (GC 500.2).

 

“It is Satan’s constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the great controversy.  His sophistry lessens the obligation of the divine law, and gives men license to sin.  At the same time he causes them to cherish false conceptions of God, so that they regard Him with fear and hate, rather than with love.  The cruelty inherent in his own character is attributed to the Creator; it is embodied in systems of religion, and expressed in modes of worship.  Thus the minds of men are blinded, and Satan secures them as his agents to war against God.  By perverted conceptions of the divine attributes, heathen nations were led to believe human sacrifices necessary to secure the favour of Deity; and horrible cruelties have been perpetrated under the various forms of idolatry” (GC 569.1).

 

“Satan’s efforts to misrepresent the character of God, to cause man to cherish a false conception of the Creator, and thus to regard Him with fear and hate rather than love’ his endeavours to set aside the divine law, leading the people to think themselves free from its requirements; and his persecution of those who dare to resist his deceptions, have been steadfastly pursued in all ages.”  GC, introduction, x.
 

God is not the executioner

 

“It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty” (GC 36.1).

 

Every calamity and every death comes from the side of evil

 

“When will men learn that God is God, not man, and that He does not change? EVERY calamity, EVERY death, is a witness to the POWER OF EVIL and to the truth of the living God. The Word of God is life, and it will abide forever. Through all eternity it will stand fast. How can man, knowing what God is and what He has done, choose Satan's way instead of God's way? There is only one path to Paradise restored,--the path of obedience” (ST, January 25, 1910 par. 18).

 

Speaking of the last destruction of the wicked in second death, she writes:

     This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God. The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." Ephesians 4:18; Proverbs 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.  {DA 764.1}

 

[APL]

On 1/19/2017 at 10:21 PM, jackson said:

Yes, APL, I see your point here, and I stand corrected on the scorpions. The scorpions were unrestrained rather than sent, as i had claimed..

Whether let loose or sent though is hardly a matter of concern to those punished. The afflicted people came to know it was God's decision that allowed the punishment. But i can see how you  would make the distinction, for you are attempting to show that God never actively initiates punishment, but rather just withdraws His protection.

I notice that you seem to attribute all punishments as God just  withdrawing His protection  You never did answer the point about God's action with Uzzah, though. Who or what  killed Uzzah, if not God himself? Or who caused the flood , if not God? 

 

One more quote on the serpents. 

The same Hand that kept the fiery serpents of the wilderness from entering the camp of the Israelites, until God's chosen people provoked Him with their constant murmurs and complaints, is today guarding the honest in heart. Were this restraining Hand withdrawn, the enemy of our souls would at once begin the work of destruction that he has so long desired to accomplish. And because God's long-continued forbearance is not now recognized, the forces of evil are already, to a limited degree, permitted to destroy. How soon human agencies will see blotted out of existence their magnificent buildings, which are their pride! {Ms153-1902}

 

YES!  All punishment comes from Sin.  God suspends the consequences for a time and we do not recognize it that fact that it is God that is holding in check the consequences.  Uzzah's situation is the same.  Have you ever asked yourself why the Philistines did not die when them moved the Ark around? 

[LifeHiscost]

Anyone remember Charles Manson? Cannot it sometimes be considered God like (like God) to perpetrate the extinguishing of harmful elements for the safety of the whole?

  

10 Facts About Charles Manson’s Imprisonment That Will Disgust You

   

http://listverse.com/2017/01/22/10-facts-about-charles-mansons-imprisonment-that-will-disgust-you/

I wish to go where where less than love will be all that is performed.

…40And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’ 41Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.....Matthew 25

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

[Gail]

I thought that the reason that we are to support the earthly governments because they have the work of providing justice and only those guilty of crimes of the land need be afraid of them? (Romans 13)

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same

[CoAspen]

Quote

.... God , at times, executes His wrath suddenly and directly, resulting in the destruction of sinners. But this is always as a lesson for the good of countless others. It instills a Godly fear that worketh righteousness and wisdom.

Ah yes! The old 'hellfire and brimstone' message of the past. Fear works wonders, good works, etc.....or God will get you!!! Deeply rooted in pagan beliefs and the gods of mythology!!!

[APL]

2 hours ago, jackson said:

The cases of Korah, Dathan, Abiram and the 250 princes:

If God the destroyer or Satan?  1 Corinthians 10:10 addresses this point. 

You are also saying that when EGW write:

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown... {GC 36.1} that God is not the executioner, except when He is. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Re Manson:  Do we want to have a prison system that kills people because it costs less to do so than it costs to keep them alive and in prison?

 

[Green Cochoa]

7 hours ago, APL said:

If God the destroyer or Satan?  1 Corinthians 10:10 addresses this point. 

You are also saying that when EGW write:

God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown... {GC 36.1} that God is not the executioner, except when He is. 

APL,

You incorrectly apply that statement beyond the contextual boundaries in which Mrs. White included it.  She addresses probationary time, not such post-probationary events as the plagues, nor hell fire.  Furthermore, she refers to character when she says that God will destroy no one.  How do we know?  Because there are Bible verses that tell us both that God did destroy and that He will destroy, and Mrs. White asks the poignant question "Who will say that He will not do what He says He will do?"  Jesus applied it to the "body" when speaking of hell in Matthew 18:8-9.  For those who perished in Sodom and Gomorrha, and for the antediluvians, their probation had closed, and as Jude tells us, they were made examples for us of what will happen with all the wicked in the end.

[Green Cochoa]

2 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Re Manson:  Do we want to have a prison system that kills people because it costs less to do so than it costs to keep them alive and in prison?

 

Prisons should not just order executions to save money, any more than the earth's population should be decimated because some believe it cannot support so many people.  However, executions should happen to cleanse the land of blood-guiltiness.  That is biblical.  What is the point of locking up someone for life and feeding him, pampering him with such amenities of life as commoners might have, e.g. television, a library, and...internet?, all because they were deemed unfit for the society they still vicariously enjoy?  The people are left thinking that murder is not so bad after all, and more crime ensues.  According to the Bible, a murderer was to be put to death.  He was not to be pitied and spared.

[Gregory Matthews]

On a personal basis, I support "capital punishment."  I also think that it is Biblical, but not required.  I agree that capital punishment probably does not serve to reduce crime.  I do believe that society has a right to determine that there are some circumstances under which a person has given up their right to live and in those circumstances society has a right that does not violate Biblical standards to end that persons life.

As many here know, I have a son who is a correctional officer at a major prison.  He would agree, at least in part, with the implication that Green has made that prisoners may be pampered, at least in some aspects.  I, probably do not fully agree with Green's view of pampering.  I will also say that such as Green lists, to the extent that they are provided, and they are NOT unrestricted, have been found to be cost-effective.  They serve to cut down on prison riots which are a safety mechanism for both correctional officers and other prisoners.

On another aspect:  The justice system in the U.S. may be much better than it is in some other countries.  But, it clearly is not perfect.  People are unjustly convicted.  This is one of the reasons why I would not want to use capital punishment widely.

As to cost:  In the U.S. it generally is extremely expensive to sentence a person to death and to then execute that person.  I once lived in an areas where in a local area it cost far more to convict and execute than it did to keep a person in prison for life.  In that area, the starting cost just to convict was general over one million dollars.  Keep in mind that once convicted it can take eight (8) to ten (10) years to go through the appeals process and execute.   This cost could exceed a million dollars.

Folks, from the economic standpoint, it may be ultimately less costly to give a person life in prison than it is to execute.

Probably, Green will retort that we need to change the justice system.  O.K.  But, until that it done, we have to live within our present system.

 

 

 

 

[Kevin Straub]

On ‎2017‎-‎01‎-‎22 at 9:06 AM, APL said:

One more quote on the serpents. 

The same Hand that kept the fiery serpents of the wilderness from entering the camp of the Israelites, until God's chosen people provoked Him with their constant murmurs and complaints, is today guarding the honest in heart. Were this restraining Hand withdrawn, the enemy of our souls would at once begin the work of destruction that he has so long desired to accomplish. And because God's long-continued forbearance is not now recognized, the forces of evil are already, to a limited degree, permitted to destroy. How soon human agencies will see blotted out of existence their magnificent buildings, which are their pride! {Ms153-1902}

 

YES!  All punishment comes from Sin.  God suspends the consequences for a time and we do not recognize it that fact that it is God that is holding in check the consequences.  Uzzah's situation is the same.  Have you ever asked yourself why the Philistines did not die when them moved the Ark around? 

Wonderful. I went to read the entire article. Very instructive for us. I like the part here about the "limited degree." I have never seen this spelled out, but it is what I have been saying. Wrath is on a continuum. God stays in the picture as far as He is able, as long as He is able, in His role as Protector and Sustainer of all pertaining to life and blessings. The degree to which He is not in these roles is the degree of wrath under which we find ourselves. We are all under "limited wrath" even in the sense of our very mortality. Notice:

Ps. 90:9 For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale [that is told]. 
 90:10 The days of our years [are] threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength [they be] fourscore years, yet [is] their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away. 

The difficulties of life here, of sickness--it is wrath:

Eccl.  5:16 And this also [is] a sore evil, [that] in all points as he came, so shall he go: and what profit hath he that hath laboured for the wind? 
 5:17 All his days also he eateth in darkness, and [he hath] much sorrow and wrath with his sickness. 

Back to this piece from Ms153-1902 (MR No. 1403) we see some other important details regarding wrath and destruction of LORD:

The forces of destruction are not direct actions of God employing direct power to guide the forces to disruptive and destructive ends. When God is exerting power, it is to keep the forces functioning in a safe manner.

     John the Revelator represents the forces of the earth as four winds, which are held in check by angels delegated to do this work…. {19MR 279.1} 

     From this vision we can learn why so many are preserved from calamity. If these winds were allowed to blow upon the earth, they would create havoc and desolation. But the world's intricate machinery is running under the Lord's supervision. Hurricanes, threatening to break forth, are held under control by the regulations of the One who is the Protector of the trembling ones that fear God and keep His commandments…. {19MR 279.2} 

 

God does not "make" these calamities occur; He permits calamities to occur. We find in other places that this happens as He gives way to wickedness, which is the choice of the free moral agent to push Him away. In this, He desires that the proper lesson be read into it. He is not releasing devastating forces arbitrarily, but giving up the wicked to their own choice of self and Satan over Him. He wants them to know that it is His power that blesses them and they really do need Him. Notice that "unusual workings" is the expression used to depict His act of giving nature over. God's normal role is to hold the forces in check and make them pleasant and beneficial. When He is not doing this it is "unusual." This is the same as saying it is "strange." This is what is meant by "strange act." It is not strange in the sense that He destroys proactively. It is strange in the sense that He does not keep on blessing, for "His mercy endureth for ever," as it is said repeatedly in the Bible. (In fact this is stated in the KJV 42 times. 7x6 = perfect and complete mercy toward man.) There is none to fear except ourselves. Only we can throw ourselves, soul and body into hell. Returning to the commentary on the following passage, note also that in the biblical expressions of His sovereignty over nature we see that He keeps the waters in check by His commandment. It also says that when "He touches" the hills they smoke. But we are not to read that "touching" as activating them to destruction. His "command" to them in destruction is the withdrawal of His power. When God commands anything that relates to destruction, it is Divine Recession. The "command" to holy angels to destroy is the issuance of orders for them to cease holding destructive forces in check, whether nature, men, or demons.

 

Frequently we hear of earthquakes, of tempests and tornadoes, accompanied with thunder and lightning. Apparently these are capricious outbreaks of seemingly disorganized, unregulated forces. But God has a purpose in permitting these calamities to occur. They are one of His means of calling men and women to their senses. By unusual workings [this is the principle of “strange act”] through nature God will express to doubting human agencies that which He clearly reveals in His Word. He will answer the question, "Who hath gathered the wind in His fists?" He will reveal Himself as the One who "maketh the clouds His chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind." "He bringeth the wind out of His treasuries." "The Lord sitteth upon the flood; yea, the Lord sitteth King for ever." "He gave to the sea His decree, that the waters should not pass His commandment: when He appointed the foundations of the earth." "He looketh on the earth, and it trembleth: He toucheth the hills, and they smoke."  {19MR 279.3}

 

     Local disturbances in nature are permitted to take place as symbols of that which may be expected all over the world when the angels loose the four winds of the earth. The forces of nature are under the direction of an Eternal Agency. {19MR 280.1} 

 

Were God's "restraining Hand withdrawn," she says, "the enemy of our souls would at once begin the work of destruction that he has so long desired to accomplish" (19 MR 281.1). We see the same principle stated here: "If He lets go His hold of us for one moment, Satan stands ready to destroy. Those purchased by His blood, He now keeps by His intercession. He ever liveth to make intercession for us. 'Wherefore He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them' [Hebrews 7:25]."  {15MR 104.1}

 

Finally, I see it very interesting that she just throws into her commentary a mention of the "magnificent buildings" that would soon be blotted out of existence. In another place she speaks of the destruction of the temple at Jerusalem as the work of angels throwing down the stones (again, this is Bible language--the angels gave over to the wrath of the human agents--the Roman army spun absolutely out of control, not even the commanding officers, Titus and the centurion Liberalis could stop them). In the same context she speaks of modern buildings.

"Men will continue to erect expensive buildings, costing millions of money; special attention will be called to their architectural beauty, and the firmness and solidity with which they are constructed; but the Lord has instructed me that despite the unusual firmness and expensive display, these buildings will share the fate of the temple in Jerusalem. That magnificent structure fell. Angels of God were sent to do the work of destruction, so that one stone was not left one upon another that was not thrown down" (MS 35, 1906).

I find an uncanny connection to the Twin Towers in NYC. From the section called "The Last Crisis" in vol. 9, p. 11, we read:
 

On one occasion, when in New York City, I was in the night season called upon to behold buildings rising story after story toward heaven. These buildings were warranted to be fireproof, and they were erected to glorify their owners and builders. Higher and still higher these buildings rose, and in them the most costly material was used. Those to whom these buildings belonged were not asking themselves: "How can we best glorify God?" The Lord was not in their thoughts.  {9T 12.1} 
     I thought: "Oh, that those who are thus investing their means could see their course as God sees it! They are piling up magnificent buildings, but how foolish in the sight of the Ruler of the universe is their planning and devising. They are not studying with all the powers of heart and mind how they may glorify God. They have lost sight of this, the first duty of man."  {9T 12.2} 
     As these lofty buildings went up, the owners rejoiced with ambitious pride that they had money to use in gratifying self and provoking the envy of their neighbors. Much of the money that they thus invested had been obtained through exaction, through grinding down the poor. They forgot that in heaven an account of every business transaction is kept; every unjust deal, every fraudulent act, is there recorded. The time is coming when in their fraud and insolence men will reach a point that the Lord will not permit them to pass, and they will learn that there is a limit to the forbearance of Jehovah.  {9T 12.3} 
     The scene that next passed before me was an alarm of fire. Men looked at the lofty and supposedly fire-proof buildings and said: "They are perfectly safe." But these buildings were consumed as if made of pitch. The fire engines could do nothing to stay the destruction. The firemen were unable to operate the engines.  {9T 13.1} 
     I am instructed that when the Lord's time comes, should no change have taken place in the hearts of proud, ambitious human beings, men will find that the hand that had been strong to save will be strong to destroy. No earthly power can stay the hand of God. No material can be used in the erection of buildings that will preserve them from destruction when God's appointed time comes to send retribution on men for their disregard of His law and for their selfish ambition.  {9T 13.2} 

 

In the biblical language, "angels of God were sent to do the work of destruction" so that one steel beam was not left in place that was not thrown down.

[Kevin Straub]

16 hours ago, LifeHiscost said:

Anyone remember Charles Manson? Cannot it sometimes be considered God like (like God) to perpetrate the extinguishing of harmful elements for the safety of the whole?

 

 

Of course. We need to regulate our society and force is used to protect us from elements of evil. All of this is conducted under a system of rewards and punishments that are arbitrary and imposed. It is not like God's ways at all, but it is what we must have, seeing as we have chosen our own way. As such, what we have here is "ordained of God." It is still wrath. We have been given over to find our own governance, our own way of keeping order and safety. Look at the world around you, man. How well has that worked out, under "God's will"?

[Green Cochoa]

On 01/17/2017 at 9:46 PM, APL said:

Most it seems read the Bible and believe that the only way to maintain and order is to use the strength of arms, to use force.  They look at the wars of Israel and believe they are seeing the true Jesus. They do not believe that war is MURDER. Mass murder!  Jesus turned that whole concept upside down. Earthly kingdoms rule by the ascendancy of physical power; but from Christ's kingdom every carnal weapon, every instrument of coercion, is banished.  Yet Christians are right at the head of the line to proclaim their right to own guns for protection. 

Keep reading the Bible through biased glasses and I am sure you will find ample support for whatever you wish.  Those who read the Bible seeking wisdom, not merely to support their own views but to find God with all their heart, will see in its pages the beautiful, harmonious, and balanced truth.

Your assertions about Jesus and the Bible are not fully correct.  You have no word from Jesus' lips that calls killing in war "murder."  None.  Yet you assert such as vigorously as to presume it was a fact--in much the same way biologists these days promulgate naturalistic evolution as undeniable fact.  The truth is opposed to your opinion, so you avert your eyes from it and focus on that which you prefer to see.

Here are texts that present a balance to your lopsided view.  Let us, for the sake of comparison to what you have said, juxtapose these with your own statements.

 

APL	vs.	Jesus
. . . from Christ's kingdom every carnal weapon, every instrument of coercion, is banished.		But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. (Luke 22:36)
Yet Christians are right at the head of the line to proclaim their right to own guns for protection.		. . . Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, [and] go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour. (Exodus 32:27) And the ass saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the ass turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the ass, to turn her into the way. (Numbers 22:23) Even angels have swords!

 

Speaking of angelic and/or heavenly "swords," consider this following passage carefully.

Voluntarily our divine Substitute bared His soul to the sword of justice, that we might not perish but have everlasting life. Said Christ, "I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again" (John 10:17, 18). No man of earth or angel of heaven could have paid the penalty for sin. Jesus was the only one who could save rebellious man. In Him divinity and humanity were combined, and this was what gave efficiency to the offering on Calvary's cross. At the cross mercy and truth met together, righteousness and peace kissed each other.  {1SM 322.1} 

Either Satan is just, or it was truly God's own wrath which Jesus suffered on the cross.  I don't believe Satan is anywhere near just, do you?

[Gregory Matthews]

In Biblical times, a distinction was made between killing and murder.

Israel never considered war to be murder.

The Bible does not consider war to be murder.

NOTE:  I am not advocating that Christians go to war.

I suspect that someone will say that Israel never considered war to be murder because God ruled and when God sent Israel into battle, it could not be murder.

Well, Israel fought battles on the Sabbath day, as the time came when their enemies focused on attacking Israel on the Sabbath under the mistaken belief that Israel would refuse to fight on that day.  Where was God in this?  Did God lead Israel to battle their enemies on the Sabbath day?   WAS God present  when their enemies attacked them on the Sabbath and Israel refused to fight and they were slaughtered because they did not fight?

 

 

[debbym]

We perish ultimately because we refuse the life boat.  As a result of sin all are perishing, and grace provides a season for anyone who will to be saved and just take the lifesaver thrown out to them.  We are perishing because we cannot produce or generate life apart from the life source, the life giver.

Addressing the sin problem, and bringing an eternal end to it,  is being done in a way that will leave no room for question or doubt as to the goodness and interest and love God has for all of His creation including Lucifer/Satan.

This is an area Satan accuses God in, how can God allow death to come to His creation if he is a loving God.  Well He can and will and evil will come to an end and it will be seen that it will be no selfishness, shortcoming,  or fault, or evil on the part of God.

And to show this God himself was the first one of all creation angels and human beings... to Die eternal death, showing for all eternity the result of sin is death.  This was why the death of Jesus was so powerful and why Satan saw his death for the first time and every non fallen being in the universe understood the justice of god and the mercy and goodness of God at the same time in the death and Resurrection of Jesus.  and there we see our death and our Resurrection.

Murder was in the hearts of those trying to kill Jesus, but the death of Christ was an intentional deliberate offering of His life, and he poured out his life to the death.  this was not a murder or a suicide.  And when all sinners perish from the universe it will not be murder.

[Kevin Straub]

11 hours ago, jackson said:

You and Kevin keep giving Bible and SOP examples of what you call DR, but no one is arguing against that part of God's dealing with sin, for it is quite evident. But what you both refuse to acknowledge is that God , at times, executes His wrath suddenly and directly, resulting in the destruction of sinners. But this is always as a lesson for the good of countless others. It instills a Godly fear that worketh righteousness and wisdom.

 

Rom 1:18      For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

There is no warrant for reading proactive wrath in the Bible or SoP. You have no grounds for it whatsoever. The same language is used in cases where the language of DR is present, in cases where you have causation revealed in the narrative and in cases where you lack both. The problem comes in when you take the lack of DR indicators and lack of revealed causation as a "green light" to apply principles of human punishment to God's character and ways. You talk about terror being struck into the heart of sinners to warn them away. This is deterrence. It is fine so far as it is realized that these are the results of DR, but when it is taught that God does it, you have a government based upon fear. We do not accept it. It does not support what we know about the great controversy. God cannot prove righteousness by the use of force, for if obedience is require under penalty of pain or loss by the hand of the lawmaker, you have no means of winning the heart's loyalty. Such a governance is seen to be concerned only with non-resistance and compliance. It then comes down to a God that is simply concerned with behaviour, not love. It simply doesn't work.

[Kevin Straub]

11 hours ago, CoAspen said:

Ah yes! The old 'hellfire and brimstone' message of the past. Fear works wonders, good works, etc.....or God will get you!!! Deeply rooted in pagan beliefs and the gods of mythology!!!

Godly fear has to be instilled on the correct basis. To be afraid of self is the godly fear. Afraid that without God we have no life because He will honor the choice to reject Him. To have a fear of what God will do to you if you reject Him is the government of force, based upon rewards and punishments. This type of government is what we already have on earth. If that is what heaven will be, I will not be there.

[Gregory Matthews]

Moderator's Note:

I participate in and encourage robust discussion.  However, I believe that such can  occur without attributing mal intent to another persons  motives.

I have not acted  in this respect due to the fact that  More than one person has approached this  line and if I were to act, in fairness I would have to deal with more than one person.

So, please, everyone, take my advise not to deal with others motives.   

[Kevin Straub]

1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

In Biblical times, a distinction was made between killing and murder.

Israel never considered war to be murder.

The Bible does not consider war to be murder.

NOTE:  I am not advocating that Christians go to war.

I suspect that someone will say that Israel never considered war to be murder because God ruled and when God sent Israel into battle, it could not be murder.

Well, Israel fought battles on the Sabbath day, as the time came when their enemies focused on attacking Israel on the Sabbath under the mistaken belief that Israel would refuse to fight on that day.  Where was God in this?  Did God lead Israel to battle their enemies on the Sabbath day?   WAS God present  when their enemies attacked them on the Sabbath and Israel refused to fight and they were slaughtered because they did not fight?

 

 

We cannot compare their darkness of mind to our day.

Biblically, in the commandment, is no distinction. That argument is groundless.

read tract #1 in my new CGA series (standard layout format for computer reading)

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107170239/CG Series/CGA series standard layout/%231CGA Do As I Say%2C Not As I Do_Is God Above His Law_std layout.docx

[Kevin Straub]

38 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Can you suggest a verse or two that would show us this my friend?

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 
NIV says, "because fear has to do with punishment."

We will be punished, no doubt, but by the natural outworking of our course. God does not come into the picture as the "executioner of the sentence against transgression." EGW clearly stated these principles OVER and OVER. Yet we cling to the human model of wrath and punishment, insisting that God does it the way that we do it, and we hide behind the Bible language in this assertion. But you know who else hides there? Satan. So, look beside you and see where those ideas come from.

"Their sufferings are often represented [represented where? IN THE BIBLE!] as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control."  {GC88 36.1}

Matt. 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 

Who? Not the wicked others, not the devil, not God. SELF.

"The character revealed by Pharaoh is similar to that of all the impenitent. God destroys no man; but after a time the wicked are given up to the destruction they have wrought for themselves."   {YI, November 30, 1893 par. 6} 

John 10:10 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly. 

 

[Kevin Straub]

9 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Moderator's Note:

I participate in and encourage robust discussion.  However, I believe that such can  occur without attributing mal intent to another persons  motives.

I have not acted  in this respect due to the fact that  More than one person has approached this  line and if I were to act, in fairness I would have to deal with more than one person.

So, please, everyone, take my advice not to deal with others motives.   

Is it I, Lord?

[Samie]

45 minutes ago, Kevin Straub said:

We will be punished, no doubt, but by the natural outworking of our course. God does not come into the picture as the "executioner of the sentence against transgression." EGW clearly stated these principles OVER and OVER. Yet we cling to the human model of wrath and punishment, insisting that God does it the way that we do it, and we hide behind the Bible language in this assertion. But you know who else hides there? Satan. So, look beside you and see where those ideas come from.

"Their sufferings are often represented [represented where? IN THE BIBLE!] as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. . . .

 

I believe that Scriptures tell us the LORD corrects whom He loves, just as a father the son he loves

 

^NKJ Psalm 89:26, 30-32   

²⁶ He shall cry to Me, 'You are my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation.' 

³⁰ "If his sons forsake My law And do not walk in My judgments, 

³¹ If they break My statutes And do not keep My commandments, 

³² Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, And their iniquity with stripes.

        ^NKJ Proverbs 3:11-12   

¹¹ My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor detest His correction; 

¹² For whom the LORD loves He corrects, Just as a father the son in whom he delights.

         ^NKJ Proverbs 13:24 He who spares his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.

       NKJ Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of correction will drive it far from him.

       NKJ Proverbs 29:15 The rod and rebuke give wisdom, But a child left to himself brings shame to his mother.

It appears to me that Solomon, in his God-given wisdom, approves of a proactive correction of a child. And the wisest man seemed to equate this with the correction God does to His people.

1.     1. What is your take on the above verses?

2.     2. Do you believe that God actively chastens or corrects us, as these verses seem to show?

3.     3. Is it a use of force if indeed God chastens / corrects people, or is it a display of His love?

Thank you.

[Kevin Straub]

5 minutes ago, Samie said:

 

I believe that Scriptures tell us the LORD corrects whom He loves, just as a father the son he loves

 

^NKJ Psalm 89:26, 30-32   

²⁶ He shall cry to Me, 'You are my Father, My God, and the rock of my salvation.' 

³⁰ "If his sons forsake My law And do not walk in My judgments, 

³¹ If they break My statutes And do not keep My commandments, 

³² Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, And their iniquity with stripes.

        ^NKJ Proverbs 3:11-12   

¹¹ My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor detest His correction; 

¹² For whom the LORD loves He corrects, Just as a father the son in whom he delights.

         ^NKJ Proverbs 13:24 He who spares his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.

       NKJ Proverbs 22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of correction will drive it far from him.

       NKJ Proverbs 29:15 The rod and rebuke give wisdom, But a child left to himself brings shame to his mother.

It appears to me that Solomon, in his God-given wisdom, approves of a proactive correction of a child. And the wisest man seemed to equate this with the correction God does to His people.

1.     1. What is your take on the above verses?

2.     2. Do you believe that God actively chastens or corrects us, as these verses seem to show?

3.     3. Is it a use of force if indeed God chastens / corrects people, or is it a display of His love?

Thank you.

God corrects, punishes, chastises, etc., by giving over. Period. We read all of the language in this way. Thank you for your interest.

[Samie]

6 minutes ago, Kevin Straub said:

God corrects, punishes, chastises, etc., by giving over. Period. We read all of the language in this way. Thank you for your interest.

You were asking WHERE in the Bible.  I have shown the verses where Solomon equated a father's disciplining of his son to God's disciplining His people.  Was Solomon speaking with his tongue in cheek?