Murders depicted in the Bible

January 19, 2017

1 hour ago, APL said:

AGAIN: Galatians 6:7-8 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatever a man sows, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Cause and effect.

You call that cause and effect.

Scriptures call that the final reward that God will render to every man according to his deeds.

Again, since your answer is No, can you provide Scriptural basis for your position that God has no active participation in the final reward of the wicked?

January 19, 2017

1 minute ago, Samie said:

You call that cause and effect.

Scriptures call that the final reward that God will render to every man according to his deeds.

Again, since your answer is No, can you provide Scriptural basis for your position that God has no active participation in the final reward of the wicked?

I have answered your question, what do you not understand? I have provided the scripture references for you to look at and pertinent questions about the Cross. WHY do you not answer those as they demonstrate how God is involved with the death of the wicked. And since you claim to be an Adventist, I suggest reading the following references, and if you do not want to read them, I see no point in continuing our discussion. Read Desire of Ages, Chapter 79. Read The Great Controversy, Chapter 1. Read Signs of the Times, January 20, 1890, and April 14, 1898. Let me know when you have read these and then we can continue if you want.

January 19, 2017

7 minutes ago, APL said:

I have answered your question, what do you not understand?

What I do not understand is you seem to refuse to provide the Scriptural basis for your position. Is there none, brother?

8 minutes ago, APL said:

I have provided the scripture references for you to look at and pertinent questions about the Cross.

You provided Gal 6:7-8 and called it cause and effect. I already addressed that.

The apostle Paul who wrote Galatians referred to the final reward of the wicked as what God will render to every man according to his deeds in Rom 2:5-8. "will render" is active not passive. Hence God has an ACTIVE participation.

January 19, 2017

The Scripture reference you provided tells of God's ACTIVE participation.

January 19, 2017

Do you have any other Scripture reference that tells us God has NO active participation in the final reward of the wicked?

January 19, 2017

How was God involved in the death of Christ on the Cross - THAT IS MY ANSWER. Can you find those places in the New Testament that speak of the death of Christ on the Cross, or do you need help?

Samie - have your read the references I suggested? If not.....

January 19, 2017

7 minutes ago, APL said:

How was God involved in the death of Christ on the Cross - THAT IS MY ANSWER. Can you find those places in the New Testament that speak of the death of Christ on the Cross, or do you need help?

Seems you have no specific verse in mind, so to cover up, you proferred help.

9 minutes ago, APL said:

Samie - have your read the references I suggested? If not.....

If not, you like to quit like Kevin? Is that it, brother?

As to your:

33 minutes ago, APL said:

And since you claim to be an Adventist, I suggest reading the following references, and if you do not want to read them, I see no point in continuing our discussion. Read Desire of Ages, Chapter 79. Read The Great Controversy, Chapter 1. Read Signs of the Times, January 20, 1890, and April 14, 1898. Let me know when you have read these and then we can continue if you want.

Since you insist in dragging Sister White into the issue, please wait for my next post.

January 19, 2017

7 minutes ago, Samie said:

Seems you have no specific verse in mind, so to cover up, you proferred help.

HOW was God involved in the death of Christ? Did Christ dies the death of the wicked? Read Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. THERE IS THE ANSWER. No cover up, but I see no answer from you. Which is fine, that is your choice.

January 19, 2017

Sister White tells us to use the Bible and the Bible only as the basis of all doctrines:

Quote

“But God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines, and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority,—not one or all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain “Thus saith the Lord” in its support.” {RH June 7, 1906, par. 5} (GC 595.1)

She also said that harmony among God's people when the Bible and the Bible alone is their only creed:

Quote

“When God’s word is studied, comprehended, and obeyed, a bright light will be reflected to the world; new truths, received and acted upon, will bind us in strong bonds to Jesus. The Bible, and the Bible alone, is to be our creed, the sole bond of union; all who bow to this holy word will be in harmony. Our own views and ideas must not control our efforts. Man is fallible, but God’s word is infallible. Instead of wrangling with one another, let men exalt the Lord. Let us meet all opposition as did our Master, saying, “It is written.” Let us lift up the banner on which is inscribed, The Bible our rule of faith and discipline.” {RH December 15, 1885, Art. A, par. 16} 1SM 416.2 (Selected Messages Book 1)

Now, do you have specific Bible verse or verses saying that God does not have ACTIVE participation in the final reward of the wicked?

January 19, 2017

4 minutes ago, APL said:

HOW was God involved in the death of Christ? Did Christ dies the death of the wicked? Read Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. THERE IS THE ANSWER. No cover up, but I see no answer from you. Which is fine, that is your choice.

You are cluttering our discussion with so many side issues. Let's take it up one by one please, brother?

I have given you my scripture references for God's active participation in the final reward of every man. It's your time to give me what you consider are Bible statements that back up your position that God has no active participation. Can you do that, brother?

January 19, 2017

While waiting for your response to my last two posts, let me dwell on the Father's ACTIVE participation in Christ's death on the cross. I think one verse will suffice:

^KJVMatthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Forsaken is active, not passive.

^BGTMatthew 27:46 peri. de. th.n evna,thn w[ran avnebo,hsen o` VIhsou/j fwnh/| mega,lh| le,gwn\ hli hli lema sabacqaniÈ tou/tV e;stin\ Qee, mou qee, mou( i`nati, me evgkate,lipejÈ

evgkate,lipej verb indicative aorist active 2nd person singular from evgkatalei,pw

January 19, 2017

12 minutes ago, Samie said:

I have given you my scripture references for God's active participation in the final reward of every man. It's your time to give me what you consider are Bible statements that back up your position that God has no active participation. Can you do that, brother?

Sorry if I don't do simple one-verse proof texts to your satisfaction. I try to read the Bible as much as a whole as I can. But I'm sure you must have read about Christ's death on the Cross. How we God involved in that death? THAT IS MY ANSWER. Do you believe that giving up, handing over, letting go, forsaking, is active? Fine. But what then killed Christ, God? Nope. The same thing happens to the wicked in the end.

January 19, 2017

13 minutes ago, Samie said:

While waiting for your response to my last two posts, let me dwell on the Father's ACTIVE participation in Christ's death on the cross. I think one verse will suffice:

^KJVMatthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Forsaken is active, not passive.

^BGTMatthew 27:46 peri. de. th.n evna,thn w[ran avnebo,hsen o` VIhsou/j fwnh/| mega,lh| le,gwn\ hli hli lema sabacqaniÈ tou/tV e;stin\ Qee, mou qee, mou( i`nati, me evgkate,lipejÈ

evgkate,lipej verb indicative aorist active 2nd person singular from evgkatalei,pw

Samie, to forsake is an action, that is correct. However, we look at the "act" of "forsaking" as "passive wrath," synonymous with "hiding of face," "giving over," etc. This is not God moving toward Christ with power that would cause Him to die, but moving away from Him, allowing Him to suffer the terrible psychological and emotional burden of the weight of guilt upon His soul with no hope of God's grace--the experience that the finally impenitent will suffer. Continue your arguing. You have much time on your hands.

January 19, 2017

Glad to have you back, Kevin. Me thought you left discussing with me for good.

January 19, 2017

43 minutes ago, APL said:

Sorry if I don't do simple one-verse proof texts to your satisfaction. I try to read the Bible as much as a whole as I can.

That would be better if you can show me that my position is, taking the totality of Scripture, against its pronouncements. But I doubt if you can do that.

January 19, 2017

31 minutes ago, Kevin Straub said:

Samie, to forsake is an action, that is correct. However, we look at the "act" of "forsaking" as "passive wrath," synonymous with "hiding of face," "giving over," etc. This is not God moving toward Christ with power that would cause Him to die, but moving away from Him, allowing Him to suffer the terrible psychological and emotional burden of the weight of guilt upon His soul with no hope of God's grace--the experience that the finally impenitent will suffer. Continue your arguing. You have much time on your hands.

That's how you look at it, yes. You shouldn't forget that our issue is "Does God have an ACTIVE participation in the final reward of the wicked?".

APL offered the death of Christ as proof for his NO answer. I have shown the verse where Christ Himself said the Father forsook Him. And you agreed it is an ACTIVE act, BUT... and that's the big but.

The active act of God in FORSAKING His Son is to you passive wrath. However, APL and I are not into the issue of passive or active wrath. The issue is God's active participation, NOT on whether that ACTIVE participation is active or passive wrath . And God had an active participation by FORSAKING His only begotten Son.

Hence, APL's proof that God did not have ACTIVE participation, instead of proving his contention, proved the veracity of my position.

January 19, 2017

16 minutes ago, Samie said:

That's how you look at it, yes. You shouldn't forget that our issue is "Does God have an ACTIVE participation in the final reward of the wicked?".

APL offered the death of Christ as proof for his NO answer. I have shown the verse where Christ Himself said the Father forsook Him. And you agreed it is an ACTIVE act, BUT... and that's the big but.

The active act of God in FORSAKING His Son is to you passive wrath. However, APL and I are not into the issue of passive or active wrath. The issue is God's active participation, NOT on whether that ACTIVE participation is active or passive wrath . And God had an active participation by FORSAKING His only begotten Son.

Hence, APL's proof that God did not have ACTIVE participation, instead of proving his contention, proved the veracity of my position.

Samie your verbiage feels contrived for the love of debate. Not interested. Are you looking for a badge in a contest of who is right?

God, by your insistence, has an "active" participation in all that happens. Granted. It must be so. The holocaust was God's active participation. The crusades. The Lisbon earthquake. The death of your grandparents. But while God is "responsible" for all that happens, He is not to blame. It is His universe. He has the power to stop any and all suffering. However, God cannot actually do all that He is able to do in terms of having the power to do it. He does not act outside of who He is. For then He would cease to be who He is and everything would change. We would have a God that is just like Satan.

January 19, 2017

56 minutes ago, APL said:

Sorry if I don't do simple one-verse proof texts to your satisfaction. I try to read the Bible as much as a whole as I can.

I think there's a world of difference from "I don't" and "I can't". And If you can't even provide one verse, would you be capable of giving more? Isn't the best way is to send the objector to a wild-goose-chase for all the verses in the Bible?

1 hour ago, APL said:

But I'm sure you must have read about Christ's death on the Cross. How we God involved in that death? THAT IS MY ANSWER.

And that's your answer to my request for you to provide verse or verses that back up your contention? I respect that, brother.

1 hour ago, APL said:

Do you believe that giving up, handing over, letting go, forsaking, is active? Fine. But what then killed Christ, God? Nope.

So what killed Christ?

While waiting for your answer backed up by scripture, here's mine: Christ's LAYING DOWN HIS LIFE is what killed Him.

John 10:17-18 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Your turn, brother.

But what then killed Christ, God? Nope.

January 19, 2017

2 minutes ago, Kevin Straub said:

Samie your verbiage feels contrived for the love of debate. Not interested. Are you looking for a badge in a contest of who is right?

God, by your insistence, has an "active" participation in all that happens. Granted. It must be so. The holocaust was God's active participation. The crusades. The Lisbon earthquake. The death of your grandparents. But while God is "responsible" for all that happens, He is not to blame. It is His universe. He has the power to stop any and all suffering. However, God cannot actually do all that He is able to do in terms of having the power to do it. He does not act outside of who He is. For then He would cease to be who He is and everything would change. We would have a God that is just like Satan.

You're just out of topic, brother.

The issue being discussed is not your holocaust, Lisbon earthquake, etc. It is stated in the post you quoted where I told you: "You shouldn't forget that our issue is 'Does God have an ACTIVE participation in the final reward of the wicked?' ". Did you even bother to read it?

Please stay on topic, brother.

January 19, 2017

8 minutes ago, Kevin Straub said:

Samie your verbiage feels contrived for the love of debate. Not interested. Are you looking for a badge in a contest of who is right?

I am INTERESTED in ferreting out truth from Scriptures. I thought you said Scriptures are to be mined, remember? What is to be mined are Scriptures not the verbosity of man's explanations.

January 19, 2017

3 minutes ago, Samie said:

You're just out of topic, brother.

The issue being discussed is not your holocaust, Lisbon earthquake, etc. It is stated in the post you quoted where I told you: "You shouldn't forget that our issue is 'Does God have an ACTIVE participation in the final reward of the wicked?' ". Did you even bother to read it?

Please stay on topic, brother.

I am not out of topic. Apparently you either love arguing so much OR you just aren't smart enough to understand a simple statement and how it applies. I'm done.

January 19, 2017

1 minute ago, Kevin Straub said:

I am not out of topic. Apparently you either love arguing so much OR you just aren't smart enough to understand a simple statement and how it applies. I'm done.

You can go, brother. You have done it already.

It's your nice way of getting out from the discussion you know you have nothing from Scriptures to back you up other than your very well organized explanation of what you want the Bible to have said but did not.

January 20, 2017

50 minutes ago, Samie said:

I think there's a world of difference from "I don't" and "I can't". And If you can't even provide one verse, would you be capable of giving more? Isn't the best way is to send the objector to a wild-goose-chase for all the verses in the Bible?

And that's your answer to my request for you to provide verse or verses that back up your contention? I respect that, brother.

So what killed Christ?

While waiting for your answer backed up by scripture, here's mine: Christ's LAYING DOWN HIS LIFE is what killed Him.

John 10:17-18 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Your turn, brother.

But what then killed Christ, God? Nope.

Christ did not commit suicide. Sin killed the Son of God. Sin will kill sinners in the end.

January 20, 2017

2 minutes ago, jackson said:

APL,

To study the scriptures and to dig deep for its precious truths does not mean you do not take the Bible as it reads.

The word of God is infallible; accept it as it reads;. ... {RH, February 11, 1896 par. 12}

Those who believe the Word of God as it reads are walking in the light; for the Bible is its own interpreter. {18MR 145.2}

The Bible is its own interpreter. With beautiful simplicity one portion connects itself with the truth of another portion, until the whole Bible is blended in one harmonious whole. Light flashes forth from one text to illuminate some portion of the Word that has seemed more obscure. {OHC 207.5}

For example: The Bible says "The just shall live by faith"

That is true, and is to be taken just as it reads. But one must dig deeper to know what is meant by Bible faith. To find that answer we must look to other Bible texts that define Bible faith. If we fail to do that we will be just surface readers.

The Bible says that " Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Rom 1:17; Gal 3:11 and Heb 10:38

Now we have a clear picture of what it means to live by faith. And we dug deeper without violating the plain meaning of scripture. So now when scripture tells us that :

And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah; and God smote him there for [his] error; and there he died by the ark of God. Deut 6:7And when we also read:

And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, " Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard [him] lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him." Lev 24:13-14

When we have numerous other passages demonstrating this same dual nature of Godly punishment then we know that God deals both actively and passively in the punishment of men, and that any construct that omits this dual nature of punishment is error. We do not go back to Deut 6:7 and try to rationalize away its plain meaning to make it fit our DR doctrine. That would be eisegesis not exegesis

Numbers 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.

There you have it. My bible says it. Believe it brother. Or did God really send them? How readest thou?

January 20, 2017

1 hour ago, Samie said:

That would be better if you can show me that my position is, taking the totality of Scripture, against its pronouncements. But I doubt if you can do that.

You can doubt if you wish. That is your choice. Christ gave us the true picture of the Character of God which reveals how He deals with sinners. See John 12, John 14, I'll let you figure out the verses. In dealing with Sin and demonstration of the results of sin, see 2 Thessalonians 5, Romans 7 and 8, 1 Peter 2. As for the Cross, certainly you can find those verses too. But it is clear that there is not much I can say to convince you and I really do not see that as my Job for it is not I that is convince you, that it the work of the Spirit. Rejecting the work of the Spirit however has cause and effect consequences. Good Luck brother...

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