Murders depicted in the Bible

[Samie]

16 hours ago, Kevin Straub said:

God’s “strange act" properly understood is a true definition of His wrath

So, when we are speaking about the subject of the wrath of God, invariably “God’s Strange Act” will be brought up from the arsenal of misconception.  Now we can show that this phrase is not applied to the final destruction of the wicked, but to the outpouring of the plagues upon the earth. 

I believe that the 7 last plagues will be poured out upon the earth after the saints have been ushered to heaven (see Rev 15:1 - 16:1). 

That tells me the reward for the wicked is suffering the plagues and that for the righteous is to be ushered to the heavenly portals and be with the Lord forever.  Rewarded according to what each has done, as per our Lord (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12). Also see Rom 2:5-11.

[Kevin Straub]

49 minutes ago, Samie said:

A police officer arrested and handcuffed a fugitive criminal convicted for mass murder and sentenced to death by electrocution.  The police officer brought him to the justice department. The criminal was subsequently electrocuted.  Did the police officer have an ACTIVE participation in his being electrocuted?

The above scenario is not very much unlike resurrecting the wicked for them to be punished.  For me, that would be God ACTIVELY doing His "strange act".

It is not at all alike. It is not even apples and oranges. It is fish and mathematics! Humans have this bad habit to attempt to understand God and His ways through man and his ways. We would be safer to draw these sorts of comparisons if we were unfallen, but we are carnal. As such, the way we do justice and punishment is nothing like the way God does it.

What you are trying to prove with your logic is to put blame on God. It is like saying that because He created Satan, the fallen angels, or any of the finally impenitent, in the first place, He was taking an active part in destroying them. In both cases, He is giving life. This is key. God always acts to Create, Heal, and Sustain. What the free moral agent does with these acts that are within His nature to perform is by their own choice and the results that come are allowed by God in accordance with love and freedom and these results are called "justice."

God's strange act is when He ceases to act in those roles of Creator, Healer, and Sustainer. His mercy and love endures forever and He is never one to stop Being Who He is. However, there is one thing that trumps even His ever-enduring mercy and that is the choice of the free moral agent to forsake Him. Then He must forsake also. This is a strange act to Him. Destruction happens because of His forsaking, but His strange act is not the destruction.

"God does not separate from his people, but his people separate themselves from God by their own course of action" (1888 1011.1).

"God never forsakes people or individuals until they forsake Him" (12MR 321.2, Letter 55, 1886, written from Basel, Switzerland to G. I. Butler and S. N. Haskell, Dec. 8, 1886).

[Kevin Straub]

53 minutes ago, Samie said:

I believe that the 7 last plagues will be poured out upon the earth after the saints have been ushered to heaven (see Rev 15:1 - 16:1). 

That tells me the reward for the wicked is suffering the plagues and that for the righteous is to be ushered to the heavenly portals and be with the Lord forever.  Rewarded according to what each has done, as per our Lord (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12). Also see Rom 2:5-11.

Samie, you are confused on the timeline. The saints are on earth through the beginning of sorrows, which time we are now in; the little time of trouble, right upon us; and the great time of trouble such as never was, which commences at the close of probation (Rev. 22:11). Your appeal to Rev. 15 is misguided. Revelation is not read in this manner. In chapter 15 John saw the saints on the sea of glass and he also saw the angels preparing to pour out the vials. These are simply two things he saw, but the narrative does not address the issue of timing. We have to figure that part out from many other references. We know that the saints do not go to heaven until the second coming, the living righteous caught up together with the righteous dead, newly resurrected in the first resurrection.

Sorry, but I thought I was talking to an Adventist.

[there buster]

23 hours ago, there buster said:

23 hours ago, APL said:

What did Christ some to save us from?

What would you say is the "Good News?"  (1st angel's message)

Perhaps you could explain the logical relationship between these questions and the topic of this thread.

Is it that mysterious to see the connection?  God's "strange act" - is it Good News or Bad News?  Are we being saved from God's "strange act" or something else?  You argue about the " sheer volume of verbiage" but do you not know that "The truths of the Bible are as pearls hidden. They must be searched, dug out by painstaking effort." {Ms24-1886}

Let's see, the title of this thread is "Murders depicted in the Bible."

So, since this is so straightforward, do you propose that Christ came to save us from murders depicted in the Bible? Or that is the Good News?

Yes, the truths must be dug out; not because they are buried in verbiage, for the Bible is actually quite succinct. They must be dug out because we tend to read our world into the texts, rather than reading the meaning out of them. It's difficult because we have sloppy habits of thought. And those habits are often manifested by inability to express them clearly and coherently.  As I continue to demonstrate, when the notions espoused on this thread are clarified, they are not coherent.

 

[Samie]

10 hours ago, Kevin Straub said:

Samie, you are confused on the timeline.

I don't think so.

10 hours ago, Kevin Straub said:

The saints are on earth through the beginning of sorrows, which time we are now in; the little time of trouble, right upon us; and the great time of trouble such as never was, which commences at the close of probation (Rev. 22:11). Your appeal to Rev. 15 is misguided. Revelation is not read in this manner. In chapter 15 John saw the saints on the sea of glass and he also saw the angels preparing to pour out the vials. These are simply two things he saw, but the narrative does not address the issue of timing.

I think, it does.  It's quite clear from the Bible that the plagues are post-advent instead of pre-advent as commonly understood by us SDA's.  It's the reader who sometime reads into the verse his own timing and because of that he runs into many inconsistencies with other parts of Scripture.  I'll state some inconsistencies in the pre-advent view of the 7 last plagues.

Inconsistency #1. Rev 15:1 declares that the 7 last plagues is the completion of God's wrath.  They will be poured upon the wicked alive on earth.  Hence, no wicked dead will taste of God's wrath, only those alive at its outpouring will experience it.  This is inconsistent with Rom 2:5-11 that all the wicked will taste God's wrath.  The pre-advent view precludes the wicked dead from experiencing the wrath of God and this leads to another inconsistency.

Inconsistency #2. In the 3rd plague, the prophet-slayers are made to drink blood.  We SDA's are proud to say that Sister EGW is the last prophet, hence, those who killed the prophets who lived and died ahead of EGW are long dead by now.  Examples are the prophet slayers mentioned in Matt 23:30, 31. Yet they are among those who will be made to drink blood. So, to counter-act this objection, we are forced to resort to a special resurrection of some of the wicked - an idea foreign to Scriptures, and which leads to another inconsistency.

Inconsistency #3. We SDA's believe that the resurrection of the righteous is the first resurrection referred to in Rev 20:6.  The second resurrection will be the resurrection of the wicked at the close of the Millennium.  But how can the resurrection of the righteous be the first resurrection when there is a resurrection of some of the wicked that occurred ahead so the prophet slayers can be made to drink blood?

Inconsistency #4. We SDA's believe that only the righteous will be resurrected at the Second Coming; the wicked will be resurrected 1000 years later.  But the wicked Roman soldiers who pierced Jesus' side are specified in Scriptures as being among those to see Jesus come in the clouds of heaven (Rev 1:7). But they were long dead, so how? And again, we resort to a special resurrection, this time perhaps, quite a few seconds after the resurrection of the righteous? So how many special resurrections are there, when Scriptures do not tell of any?  Another inconsistency results from this.

Inconsistency #5.  If only the righteous are resurrected when He comes, then only the righteous receive their reward when Jesus comes.  But Jesus said that when He comes He will reward every man according to what each has done (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12).  Hence, every one born into this world must be present to receive his due reward.  No wonder, Jesus tells of a resurrection where all in the graves will be resurrected, both the righteous and the wicked (John 5:28, 29).  The apostle Paul referred to this resurrection (Acts 24:15).  Even Daniel wrote about this (Dan 12:1, 2).

And if you think your eschatology is error-free, you're in for a big surprise.

 

10 hours ago, Kevin Straub said:

We have to figure that part out from many other references.

As I have done above.  Can you?  You're too busy with your manuscript now.

 

10 hours ago, Kevin Straub said:

Sorry, but I thought I was talking to an Adventist.

Yes, you are, brother.

I think it is not wrong for a SDA like me to be among the people Sister White said God will have upon the earth:

Quote

“But God will have a people upon the earth to maintain the Bible, and the Bible only, as the standard of all doctrines, and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority,—not one or all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain “Thus saith the Lord” in its support.” {RH June 7, 1906, par. 5} (GC 595.1)

[APL]

8 hours ago, there buster said:

Let's see, the title of this thread is "Murders depicted in the Bible."

So, since this is so straightforward, do you propose that Christ came to save us from murders depicted in the Bible? Or that is the Good News?

Yes, the truths must be dug out; not because they are buried in verbiage, for the Bible is actually quite succinct. They must be dug out because we tend to read our world into the texts, rather than reading the meaning out of them. It's difficult because we have sloppy habits of thought. And those habits are often manifested by inability to express them clearly and coherently.  As I continue to demonstrate, when the notions espoused on this thread are clarified, they are not coherent.

 

What are you looking for when you read the scriptures? What is the purpose of the Bible?  Is it just a novel with juicy stories or are the scriptures "they that testify of Me [CHRIST]" John 5:39?  Most it seems read the Bible and believe that the only way to maintain and order is to use the strength of arms, to use force.  They look at the wars of Israel and believe they are seeing the true Jesus. They do not believe that war is MURDER. Mass murder!  Jesus turned that whole concept upside down. Earthly kingdoms rule by the ascendancy of physical power; but from Christ's kingdom every carnal weapon, every instrument of coercion, is banished.  Yet Christians are right at the head of the line to proclaim their right to own guns for protection. 

Do you think that God will then execute sinners in the end using physical might to get His way?  Matthew 1:21 clearly states what Christ came to save us from.  What do you think the Good News is?  Is it that God will make things right by slaughtering all recalcitrant sinners?  Is that how sinners die [and they do die] in the end? 

[Samie]

1 hour ago, APL said:

Do you think that God will then execute sinners in the end using physical might to get His way?  Matthew 1:21 clearly states what Christ came to save us from.  What do you think the Good News is?  Is it that God will make things right by slaughtering all recalcitrant sinners?  Is that how sinners die [and they do die] in the end? 

So for what purpose will God resurrect the wicked?

[APL]

32 minutes ago, Samie said:

So for what purpose will God resurrect the wicked?

What is the purpose of the investigative judgment?

[Kevin Straub]

10 hours ago, there buster said:

As I continue to demonstrate, when the notions espoused on this thread are clarified, they are not coherent.

I agree. To you, they are not.

[Kevin Straub]

3 hours ago, APL said:

What are you looking for when you read the scriptures? What is the purpose of the Bible?  Is it just a novel with juicy stories or are the scriptures "they that testify of Me [CHRIST]" John 5:39?  Most it seems read the Bible and believe that the only way to maintain and order is to use the strength of arms, to use force.  They look at the wars of Israel and believe they are seeing the true Jesus. They do not believe that war is MURDER. Mass murder!  Jesus turned that whole concept upside down. Earthly kingdoms rule by the ascendancy of physical power; but from Christ's kingdom every carnal weapon, every instrument of coercion, is banished.  Yet Christians are right at the head of the line to proclaim their right to own guns for protection. 

Do you think that God will then execute sinners in the end using physical might to get His way?  Matthew 1:21 clearly states what Christ came to save us from.  What do you think the Good News is?  Is it that God will make things right by slaughtering all recalcitrant sinners?  Is that how sinners die [and they do die] in the end? 

"Every sin must meet its punishment." --Lucifer (DA 761.4).

[there buster]

2 hours ago, Kevin Straub said:

I agree. To you, they are not.

Any time yes means no, up means down, and strange means routine--the position, your position--is incoherent.

 

[Kevin Straub]

23 minutes ago, there buster said:

Any time yes means no, up means down, and strange means routine--the position, your position--is incoherent.

 

So then, you believe the following means that God punished David by selecting adultery as the means?

2 Sam.  12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give [them] unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. 

If you would say this doesn't mean what it says, you are contradicting your statement of personal hermeneutical principle.

 

[Samie]

5 hours ago, APL said:

 

5 hours ago, Samie said:

So for what purpose will God resurrect the wicked?

What is the purpose of the investigative judgment?

Scriptures do not tell us that Christ’s work in the heavenly sanctuary is to inveestigate; instead, scriptures tell us that Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary is to JUSTIFY people:

^KJV Romans 4:25 [Christ] was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Scriptures tell us that God does not IMPUTE against us sins committed:

^KJV 2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Scriptures tell us that God remembers our sins NO MORE:

^KJV Hebrews 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Scriptures tell us that all sins were forgiven on the cross:

^NAS Colossians 2:13-14   

¹³ And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 

¹⁴ having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

So, what records of sin will God consult to investigate people when God REFUSES to remember sins?
Will God keep a record of sins He refuses to remember?

Could you also answer my questions since I have answered yours, please?

But I won’t insist if you refuse. Thank you.

[APL]

42 minutes ago, Samie said:

Scriptures do not tell us that Christ’s work in the heavenly sanctuary is to inveestigate; instead, scriptures tell us that Christ's work in the heavenly sanctuary is to JUSTIFY people:

^KJV Romans 4:25 [Christ] was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

 

 

Scriptures tell us that God does not IMPUTE against us sins committed:

^KJV 2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

 

 

Scriptures tell us that God remembers our sins NO MORE:

^KJV Hebrews 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

 

 

Scriptures tell us that all sins were forgiven on the cross:

^NAS Colossians 2:13-14   

 

 

¹³ And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 

 

 

¹⁴ having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

So, what records of sin will God consult to investigate people when God REFUSES to remember sins?
Will God keep a record of sins He refuses to remember?

 

 

Could you also answer my questions since I have answered yours, please?

 

But I won’t insist if you refuse. Thank you.

I'm not detecting your answer to my question.  But the 3AM tells us that "the hour of His judgment is come."  What is the judgment?  When God determines guilt or not and then doles out punishment?  John 3:17-19 For God did not send his Son into the world to be its judge, but to be its savior. (18) Those who believe in the Son are not judged; but those who do not believe have already been judged, because they have not believed in God's only Son. (19) This is how the judgment works: the light has come into the world, but people love the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds are evil.

 

In the Great Controversy - WHO is on trial?  The central figure that is on trial is not Satan or human beings.  Just as in the investigative judgment, the primary figure it God.  Romans 3:4 God forbid: yes, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That you might be justified in your sayings, and might overcome when you are judged.

The second resurrection answers questions mostly about God.  And ultimately, the wages of sin is death, not execution by God.

 

[Samie]

4 hours ago, Kevin Straub said:

"Every sin must meet its punishment." --Lucifer (DA 761.4).

Quote

God has given in His word decisive evidence that He will punish the transgressors of His law. Those who flatter themselves that He is too merciful to execute justice upon the sinner, have only to look to the cross of Calvary. The death of the spotless Son of God testifies that “the wages of sin is death,” that every violation of God’s law must receive its just retribution. Christ the sinless became sin for man. He bore the guilt of transgression, and the hiding of His Father’s face, until His heart was broken and His life crushed out. All this sacrifice was made that sinners might be redeemed. In no other way could man be freed from the penalty of sin. And every soul that refuses to become a partaker of the atonement provided at such a cost must bear in his own person the guilt and punishment of transgression.... {GC 539.3}

 

 

[Samie]

3 minutes ago, APL said:

I'm not detecting your answer to my question.

 

Sorry for not detecting my answer. I am really a failure in good communications.

You asked me "What is the purpose of the investigative judgment?". And I think my post answered that directly.

I pointed out in my post that Scriptures nowhere speak of investigating records of sins. Hence, there could be no purpose for that which does not exist, is there?

So now, please answer my question: What is God's purpose for resurrecting the wicked?

[Kevin Straub]

15 minutes ago, Samie said:

 

 

When Satan is saying it he means that God should torture the sinner with pain. When God says it it means that the sinner must be allowed to have his sin, with its corresponding results.

[APL]

2 minutes ago, Samie said:

Sorry for not detecting my answer. I am really a failure in good communications.

You asked me "What is the purpose of the investigative judgment?". And I think my post answered that directly.

I pointed out in my post that Scriptures nowhere speak of investigating records of sins. Hence, there could be no purpose for that which does not exist, is there?

So now, please answer my question: What is God's purpose for resurrecting the wicked?

I think you don't get it - the investigative judgment is not about us, it is about GOD.  Just as the post 2nd resurrection events are about God. 

[Samie]

5 minutes ago, APL said:

I think you don't get it - the investigative judgment is not about us, it is about GOD.  Just as the post 2nd resurrection events are about God. 

I get it, brother.

Please tell me, have you read anything in Scriptures about the investigative jugdment?  If none, then you can't possibly make that your basis for God's purpose in resurrecting the wicked.

[Samie]

And where do Scriptures say that resurrecting the wicked is all about Him?

[Samie]

Here's what Jesus said is the reason for resurrecting all in the graves, and that includes both righteous and wicked:

John 5:28-29   28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,  29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There is a need for all to be resurrected because they will be judged according to their works:

Matthew 16:27   For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

[Samie]

16 minutes ago, Kevin Straub said:

When Satan is saying it he means that God should torture the sinner with pain. When God says it it means that the sinner must be allowed to have his sin, with its corresponding results.

Is it God Who allows the sinner?

[Kevin Straub]

2 hours ago, Samie said:

And where do Scriptures say that resurrecting the wicked is all about Him?

Are you a follower of the Des Ford gospel? Sounding kind of like that....

[Kevin Straub]

2 hours ago, Samie said:

Is it God Who allows the sinner?

Who else would it be?

[APL]

3 hours ago, Samie said:

Here's what Jesus said is the reason for resurrecting all in the graves, and that includes both righteous and wicked:

John 5:28-29   28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,  29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There is a need for all to be resurrected because they will be judged according to their works:

Matthew 16:27   For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Yep!  And we will see cause and effect.  Not execution.