God's changes

[8thdaypriest]

I am interested in talking about God's "adjustments" - "turns" - "changes" - in response to human choices. 

He "changed" the priesthood - from firstborn, to Aaronic, and then back again to firstborn.

There were several "firstborn" whom God did NOT choose for priesthood.  Cain, Esau, Ishmael, etc. etc.

The LORD chose Saul to be king, but then sent Samuel to anoint David as the next king (who was NOT the firstborn of Saul).

The LORD sent Israel BACK into the wilderness for 40 years. 

God says, "I change not." 

I believe His GOAL for humanity has NOT changed.  But the turns and adjustments definitely changed things, for specific individuals, and for their descendants. 

 

[JoeMo]

I don't think God's sovereign will ever changes; but I am open to the possibility that His strategy to implement His sovereign will may be flexible.  For example, His sovereign will is that His Son will establish a global Kingdom in accordance with the Law established in His Word in the "fullness of time".  Did the election of Donald Trump push the exact date of the" fullness of time" forward, backwards, or leave it unchanged?  Would that date be different if Clinton, Sanders, or Carson were elected?  Was Trump elected at the sovereign will of God, or was it truly the voter's free choice?  Or did God's Spirit simply "influence" the election due to people's prayers?  Or did their prayers not really "help" the Donald?  Was EGW right or wrong when she stated that if we would have followed his guidance, Jesus would have returned way before now?

If our free-will decisions cannot alter the conditional will of God; is everything predestined?  What is the difference between "predestination" and "foreknowledge"?

That's probably enough questions for now.

[8thdaypriest]

"God's sovereign will" - what does it mean?  If HE will not override our FREE WILL, then how can it BE "sovereign" - at least as far as deciding our actions? 

I don't believe it DOES decide our actions. 

Does it even determine who will receive eternal life?  Don't we decide that - by our choices? 

I AGREE:  God's intention or GOAL, is for those of human kind, who assent to serve Him (to love Him and to love one another), to be established in a kingdom (under His Son). 

That being said, has God given any commands (or prophecies), which He later rescinded, changed, or modified?  

Did the LORD intend for Israel to wander 40 years in the wilderness?  Was that HIS intention, or his adaptation - to Israel's the stage of maturity.

[JoeMo]

15 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

That being said, has God given any commands (or prophecies), which He later rescinded, changed, or modified?  

There are "conditional" prophecies that one may say God has rescinded (or delayed?) because Israel did not meet the conditions given in the prophecy - such as those in the Mosaic covenant.  There are unconditional promised (i.e., those that are unconditional and irrevocable) such as the Abrahamic, Davidic, and "new" covenant.  The promise of a place to live given to Abraham, Isaac, and Israel are unconditional and irrevocable.

" As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,  for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.  Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,  so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you." (Rom. 11:28-31)

[pierrepaul]

The issues of Free Will vs pre-destination, God's sovereignty and irresistible will vs foreknowledge of human decision making have occupied men for over a thousand years, and a thousand years from now will still occupy men's minds.

The notion of God's foreknowledge of all our decision-making is difficult to reconcile with true free-will; but remove God's foreknowledge and his sovereignty is less than absolute. Remove free-will, and this whole human experiment begins to look pointless. God's absolute sovereignty and foreknowledge doesn't solve the problem of theodicy, or "why is there evil?" Could not God have created a universe with such initial conditions so as to both fulfill his purpose and avoid the suffering? The solution to this problem was the proposition that this is the best of all possible worlds - in other words, this world is better than a world without free will, better than an alternative world where sin had been nipped in the bud, etc. Others have tried to square the circle by putting constraints on God's freedom to act (e.g. God cannot override free will; God cannot contradict his own perfect character, etc.). And internet discussion cannot do justice to these issues as these issues have filled libraries over the centuries - and the arguments being advanced today are "nothing new under the sun".

Atheist philosophers also wrestle with the problem. If the world is entirely materialistic, if thoughts are nothing more than electrical impulses in the brain, if emotions are nothing more than chemical reactions and hormones, if human reactions are nothing more than reactions to external stimuli, then even without Calvin's sovereign God, we have pre-destination, where all of our actions (including my typing of this post, and others' reaction to this post) is just the natural consequence of the motions of particles. As an alternative, atheism is unable to explain consciousness and free will.

Moreover, pre-destination or pre-determination is deeply unsatisfying as it is contrary to our daily experiences. Every day, throughout the day, we do make choices. Our experience is that choices have consequences. In the spiritual realm, we exhort others to make a decision for Christ, assuming that the person has a choice in the matter. Neo-Calvinists even do the same - they teach, preach, cajole, exhort, persuade, etc. - all of which would be meaningless without freewill (unless of course the person has no choice but to teach, preach, cajole, exhort, etc.).

So back to the question - does God change his mind? If no, what is the point of prayer? What do we make of Moses' pleading with God not to destroy the people and create him a new one? What do we make of Abraham's pleading with God over the fate of Sodom? What do we make of Jonah's prophecy to the Ninevites? Why do SdAs pray for the latter rain? 

Also, if God is outside of time and space, what does it mean for God to change his mind? Change makes sense when time marches on in the forward direction. If God is beyond time, does the concept of "change", "yesterday", "tomorrow", etc. have any meaning?

I don't have any answers, only questions.

[8thdaypriest]

When Peter received the vision of the sheet with the unclean animals, was THAT a "change" on God's part? 

Had not God commanded Israel NOT to enter into ANY covenant with Gentiles (the uncircumcised) - not to marry non-Israelites women, etc. etc.

Peter said to Cornelius and his family, "You know how unlawful it is for a Jewish man to keep company with or go to one of another nation.  But God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean." 

Was the LORD telling Peter that Gentile believers were now "clean" and so interaction with them was now permissible?

Was that a "change" from God's commands to Israel in the past, that they should remain "separate" from other nations?  (Ezra 9:12, Exo 23:32, Exo 34:12, 15;  Deut 7:3-4, Deut 23:6)

Or had the Pharisees (with their Oral Torah) just misrepresented God's commands, so the LORD had to set Peter straight?

[8thdaypriest]

Concerning the priesthood, I believe the message spoken to Eli by the "man of God" gives the basis for rescinding the forever promise to descendants of Aaron/Phinehas. 

I Samuel 2:27-36

In verse 30 God says "I said indeed that your house and the house of your father (Aaron) would walk before Me forever; but now the LORD says;  Far be it from Me;  for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me shall be lightly esteemed." 

 

[JoeMo]

God's sovereign will does not change; but I am open to the possibility that His strategies can change due to the nature of our free will.  God can do whatever He chooses; and I believe that one of the things He currently chooses is to limit His power and influence over us out of respect for our free will.  I predict that the consequences of man's corporate free will will soon be visited upon this planet; with ground zero being in the Middle East - particularly Israel and Jerusalem.  At this time, God will directly intervene in the affairs of man - just like He did in Eden, at the flood, at Babel, with Abraham,  in Egypt, and with Christ.  With each of these interventions, God's strategy may have changed; but God Himself never changed.  He WILL establish His Kingdom on earth, ruled by His Son sitting on David's Throne in Jerusalem forever and ever.  At that time, a Jew will rule the world eternally under the principles set forth in Scripture.

A question I have is when we are "changed", and the Law is written on our hearts such that no man will have to teach another about God, will we be more like "robots" with a limited free will?

[8thdaypriest]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

A question I have is when we are "changed", and the Law is written on our hearts such that no man will have to teach another about God, will we be more like "robots" with a limited free will?

Of course not!  Why go through all this painful process, just to be turned into "robots"?  If God was going to do THAT - He would just have created Adam and Eve as "robots" in the first place.  God desires love - and love (by definition) must be freely given. 

What does the indwelling spirit of Christ do?  Christ does NOT over-ride our free will.  He enlightens.  He gives wisdom.  He guides.  He implores.  He empowers our will.  He adds His power to our measly power, but we must throw the switch as-it-were.  Sort of like using a power tool.  The power tool adds power to accomplish what you were trying to do.  

Satan can add power too, but to accomplish evil things.  And Satan DOES over-ride a human's free will, given the opportunity.

[8thdaypriest]

I'm saying that God's will - for OUR present - can change, but HE Himself does not change.  His ultimate will - His GOAL - does NOT change.