Understanding the 144,000 versus the Great Multitude.

[Reddogs]

We came across the question of the 144,000 and the Great Multitude which No One Could Number. It cause some issues as we struggled with it as the Adventist view is not clearly laid out and Ellen White held back for reasons which will become clear.


We have the following views in Adventism:

1. That these two groups of people are one and the same. However, I find some problems with this:

Issues with this view.
A. The 144,000 is specifically named from the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 7:4) however, the Great Multitude comes from All Nations (Revelation 7:9)

B. The Great Multitude Could Not be Numbered (Revelation 7:9), however, 144,000 is a Numbered People (Revelation 7:4)

C. The 144,000 is specifically said to be those that "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb",(Revelation 7:14), "Virgins", and "were redeemed from among men, being first fruits to God and to the Lamb" (Revelation 14).


2. That the 144,000 are just symbolic

The issue with this is fairly straightforward.
A. Why give a specific number if its symbolic.

B. Why separate them from the Great Multitude which No One Could Number, why not just leave it at that.

3. That the 144,000 are those that are living and the 'first fruits' raised up to meet Him when Christ comes, and the dead saints in the grave are resurrected and both join in the air and then taken to heaven.

Lets go over it and see what we find:

First lets look at the Remnant.

According to Revelation, at the end there will be a people who have certain characteristics, they keep the commandments of God (Rev 12:17; 14:12) and they have the testimony of Jesus (Rev. 12:17). We know them as the remnant, but there is also another end time group given, the 144,000.

Now Ellen White counseled that the identity of the 144,000 was not a question to allow division.: Ellen White in 1901 wrote: “It is not His [God’s] will that they shall get into controversy over questions which will not help them spiritually, such as, Who is to compose the hundred and forty-four thousand? This those who are the elect of God will in a short time know without question.” [Ellen G. White, Selected Messages, book 1, p. 174.]The word “controversy” gives us a hint of what she was arguing against, and its clear that it will be made evident at the end to Gods elect.


Now lets look at the Church Militant and the Church triumphant.
Lets read Daniel 12:1

“And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.” Daniel 12:1

So we have a remnant who are a commandment keeping people who have the testimony of Jesus Christ. But this remnant must go through the tribulation and “the time of trouble, such as never”.

We have the following in SOP Counsels for the Church, Page 240:
“God has a church upon the earth who are His chosen people, who keep His commandments. He is leading, not stray offshoots, not one here and one there, but a people. The truth is a sanctifying power; but the church militant is not the church triumphant. There are tares among the wheat. “Wilt thou then that we ... gather them up?” was the question of the servant; but the master answered, “Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.” The gospel net draws not only good fish, but bad ones as well, and the Lord only knows who are His. CCh 240.1”

In the Great Controversy page 623, Ellen White has some very specific descriptions of those who stand at the end while Christ still intercedes in the Most Holy Place:

“Now, while our great High Priest is making the atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ. Not even by a thought could our Saviour be brought to yield to the power of temptation. Satan finds in human hearts some point where he can gain a foothold; some sinful desire is cherished, by means of which his temptations assert their power. But Christ declared of Himself: "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me." John 14:30. Satan could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain the victory. He had kept His Father's commandments, and there was no sin in Him that Satan could use to his advantage. This is the condition in which those must be found who shall stand in the time of trouble. “{GC 623.1}

So we have a church who are not all Gods people, composed of two groups, the true followers of God and others whose hearts and minds are not cleansed and ready for Christ, this is the church militant. So the church itself must go through a shaking in which those on the side of Satan will be taken out, the tares will be separated from the wheat, and the people who are His, prepared to be the church triumphant.

We find that the Saints have been sealed throughout the ages by God.

We find in John 6:27 it tells us:
“Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.” John 6:27

We also find in 2 Corinthians 1:21-23
“21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts”

So the saints throughout the ages have been sealed, and we also need prepare to be sealed, SOP tells us in Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, Page 216 :

“Now is the time to prepare. The seal of God will never be placed upon the forehead of an impure man or woman. It will never be placed upon the forehead of the ambitious, world-loving man or woman. It will never be placed upon the forehead of men or women of false tongues or deceitful hearts. All who receive the seal must be without spot before God -- candidates for heaven..” {5T 216.2}

So there are saints such as Job, Noah and others lying in the grave waiting to be resurrected and those alive who are preparing for Christ to redeem them.

[Reddogs]

Being perfect without a intercessor when Christ leaves the sanctuary.

Now lets look at Matthew 5:48 which has perplexed me for a long time as to when, and I am sure others also. Lets read what it has to say:

“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” Matthew 5:48.

Now SOP in Early Writings, Page 71, makes clear, at the end, we will be without an intercessor: “I also saw that many do not realize what they must be in order to live in the sight of the Lord without a high priest in the sanctuary through the time of trouble. Those who receive the seal of the living God and are protected in the time of trouble must reflect the image of Jesus fully.” {EW 71.1} Its confirmed in the Great Controversy page 614, Ellen White states, “When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor.” (GC 614).

Hebrews describes the role of Jesus as our mediator in heaven. And yet from SOP, its clear there will be a time when there is no mediator at all, and in that time, “we must reflect the image of Jesus fully” SOP (7BC 977.11 ) says this represents the character of the people of God for these last days.

Now lets read John 16:25-27:

“25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.”

So a time will come when Jesus will not pray to the Father on our behalf, because we will know that “the Father himself loves us.” Now the statement from Ellen White that we are to “stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator (GC 425) is clearer. As long as we need a mediator we will have one. But in John 16, Jesus promises us a time will come when we won’t have a mediator because we won’t need one for those that truly know and love Christ.

In Great Controversy page 614 we read, “When the third angel's message closes, mercy no longer pleads for the guilty inhabitants of the earth. The people of God have accomplished their work. They have received "the latter rain," "the refreshing from the presence of the Lord," and they are prepared for the trying hour before them. Angels are hastening to and fro in heaven. An angel returning from the earth announces that his work is done; the final test has been brought upon the world, and all who have proved themselves loyal to the divine precepts have received "the seal of the living God." Then Jesus ceases His intercession in the sanctuary above. He lifts His hands and with a loud voice says, "It is done;" and all the angelic host lay off their crowns as He makes the solemn announcement:”

We have to be holy and righteous now, before Christ comes.

Now let’s turn to a familiar verse in our Bibles in Revelation 22:11:

“He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.” Revelation 22:11

We find in Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, Page 216 :
“It is now that we must keep ourselves and our children unspotted from the world. It is now that we must wash our robes of character and make them white in the blood of the Lamb. It is now that we must overcome pride, passion, and spiritual slothfulness....What are you doing, brethren, in the great work of preparation?..Those who are distrustful of self, who are humbling themselves before God and purifying their souls by obeying the truth these are receiving the heavenly mold and preparing for the seal of God in their foreheads. When the decree goes forth and the stamp is impressed, their character will remain pure and spotless for eternity. {5T 216.1}

In Revelation 3:21 Christ makes a promise to the church of Laodicea. “To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne” (Revelation 3:21).

So these saints that live at the end during the time such as never was must not only overcome, but be perfect and just like Job to go through a unimaginable trial, and be ready to stand pure and spotless without a mediator with their robes washed in the blood of the lamb to prove to the universe that fallen human beings can keep the law of God.

[Reddogs]

So lets look at the 144,000 starting at Revelation 7 verse 1:

“1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”

Revelation 7:1-4

Some Christians assert that the text refers to Jews only so we first need to determine whether or not this 144,000 are actually 12,000 literal Israelites from their 12 respective tribes. Lets turn to Galatians 3:29 and read it:

“29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.” Galatians 3:29King James Version (KJV)

Next we read from Paul, the following of who is a true Jew in Romans 2:28-29:

“28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.” Romans 2:28-29

Next we read from James what shows that the Apostles viewed the tribes in a spiritual sense. “James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the 12 tribes which are scattered abroad, greetings” (James 1:1). The content of James’ letter is clearly addressed to Christians, and yet he plainly refers to them as spiritual Jews from 12 spiritual tribes. So its clear that it is referring to spiritual Israel regardless of whether they were Jew or Gentile by blood.

[Reddogs]

Now lets go back to see the characteristics of the 144,000. We saw in Revelation 7 in verse 3 that they are sealed, “3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”

In Revelation 14 verse 1, we find the same sealing:

“1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.” Revelation 14

SOP tells us in Testimonies for the Church, vol. 3, Page 266: “The true people of God, who have the spirit of the work of the Lord and the salvation of souls at heart, will ever view sin in its real, sinful character. They will always be on the side of faithful and plain dealing with sins which easily beset the people of God. Especially in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand who are to stand without fault before the throne of God, will they feel most deeply the wrongs of God's professed people.." {3T 266.2}

So we see “in the closing work for the church, in the sealing time of the one hundred and forty-four thousand who are to stand without fault before the throne of God”.

So what description does scripture give, we find Revelation 14 verse 3 & 4:

“3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb..” Revelation 14:3-4

We see in verse 4 that these are ‘virgins’, or undefiled by the corruption Satan has out there in false doctrines or teachings. God’s end-time people are wholeheartedly dedicated to God following the Lamb wherever He goes.

We also read in the SOP in Reflecting Christ, p. 226, the terrible battle they will fight:“ In vision I saw two armies in terrible conflict. One army was led by banners bearing the world's insignia; the other was led by the bloodstained banner of Prince Immanuel. Standard after standard was left to trail in the dust as company after company from the Lord's army joined the foe and tribe after tribe from the ranks of the enemy united with the commandment-keeping people of God. An angel flying in the midst of heaven put the standard of Immanuel into many hands, while a mighty general cried out with a loud voice: "Come into line. Let those who are loyal to the commandments of God and the testimony of Christ now take their position. Come out from among them, and be ye separate." The battle raged. Victory alternated from side to side. At last the victory was gained. The army following the banner with the inscription, "The commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus," was gloriously triumphant.... Satan will work his miracles to deceive; he will set up his power as supreme. The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out--the chaff separated from the precious wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place. None but those who have been overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony will be found with the loyal and true, without spot or stain of sin, without guile in their mouths. We must be divested of our self-righteousness and arrayed in the righteousness of Christ.” This is the church triumphant, lets compare this to Revelation 14, verse 5:

“5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.” Revelation 14:5

SOP in the Great Controversy pages 648-649, tells us that they are those who are living at the end and have overcome:

“Upon the crystal sea before the throne, that sea of glass as it were mingled with fire,--so resplendent is it with the glory of God,--are gathered the company that have "gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name." With the Lamb upon Mount Zion, "having the harps of God," they stand, the hundred and forty and four thousand that were redeemed from among men; and there is heard, as the sound of many waters, and as the sound of a great thunder, "the voice of harpers harping with their harps." And they sing "a new song" before the throne, a song which no man can learn save the hundred and forty and four thousand. It is the song of Moses and the Lamb--a song of deliverance. None but the hundred and forty-four thousand can learn that song; for it is the song of their experience--an experience such as no other company have ever had. "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth." These, having been translated from the earth, from among the living, are counted as "the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb." ….. they have stood without an intercessor through the final outpouring of God's judgments.

But they have been delivered, for they have "washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." "In their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault" before God.

Many Christians may think they can survive this time such as never was, but only a remnant “who have washed their robes and made them white” are prepared for it. 

Speaking of the 144,000 Ellen White explains: “Why were they [the 144,000] so specially singled out? Because they had to stand with a wonderful truth right before the whole world, and receive their opposition, and while receiving this opposition they were to remember that they were sons and daughters of God, that they must have Christ formed within them the hope of glory. They were ever keeping in view the great and blessed hope that is before them. What is it? It is an eternal weight of glory. Nothing could surpass it. {1SAT 72.3}

So how do we have our robes washed and be prepared, the SOP has the following in Steps to Christ pp. 64,65 :

“No deep-seated love for Jesus can dwell in the heart that does not realize its own sinfulness . . . if we do not see our own moral deformity, it is unmistakable evidence that we have not had a view of the beauty and excellence of Christ . . . A view of our sinfulness drives us to Him who can pardon; and when the soul, realizing its helplessness, reaches out after Christ, He will reveal Himself in power. The more our sense of need drives us to Him and to the word of God, the more exalted views we shall have of His Character, and the more fully we shall reflect His image.” Steps to Christ pp. 64,65.

[Reddogs]

So Ellen White says the living at the end comprise the 144,000 and are singled out and why, and thus its clear the resurrected or dead saints are separate from the 144,000.

“The living saints, 144,000 in number, knew and understood the voice, while the wicked thought it was thunder and an earthquake. When God spoke the time, He poured upon us the Holy Ghost, and our faces began to light up and shine with the glory of God, as Moses' did when he came down from Mount Sinai.” CET 58.

...And they sing "a new song" before the throne, a song which no man can learn save the hundred and forty and four thousand. It is the song of Moses and the Lamb--a song of deliverance. None but the hundred and forty-four thousand can learn that song; for it is the song of their experience--an experience such as no other company have ever had. "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever He goeth." These, having been translated from the earth, from among the living, are counted as "the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb." GC 1888 page 649.

Experience and Views, Page 11, she speaks of the living saints at the time the voice of God is heard, as being 144,000 in number and the wicked being enraged and trying to rush violently up to lay hands on them those living at the end to put them in prison, and the saints "would stretch forth the hand in the name of the Lord, and the wicked would fall helpless to the ground." 

Speaking of the 144,000 Ellen White explains: “Why were they [the 144,000] so specially singled out? Because they had to stand with a wonderful truth right before the whole world, and receive their opposition, and while receiving this opposition they were to remember that they were sons and daughters of God, that they must have Christ formed within them the hope of glory. They were ever keeping in view the great and blessed hope that is before them. What is it? It is an eternal weight of glory. Nothing could surpass it. {1SAT 72.3}

[Reddogs]

So we see in Revelation 14:3-4:

³ And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

⁴ These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The 144,000 are distinct and more than just because they make it alive through the last days. For example the thief on the cross may wear a white robe when he gets to heaven but will not have the special distinctions which set aside the 144,000. They have a special relationship with the Lamb, and they are sealed with a special name. They also sing a special song and "stand with a wonderful truth right before the whole world" right at the end and prepare the world for the Second Coming of Christ

So then in Revelation 7:9 after the 144,000 we read:

⁹ After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

These are not number like the 144,000 and are from all "all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues", these are the many saints from across the ages, resurrected like Moses versus translated living like Enoch.

[Kevin H]

The way I understand it is that the 144,000 is a number indicating a special experience that has been met by people in each generation but which the entire last generation will experience.  (I differ from the last generation theology people because they misinterpret the evidence to understand the last generation to reach a different quality of anyone who lived before, I understand it as a different quantity of people than who have been fully settled into the truth before where nothing can shake them.)

The 12 tribes also represent the basic personality types (the 12 signs of the zodiac are a counterfeit of this) symbolizing that while they have come to have the same deep trust in God that we may not recognize it because God is working with their own unique personalities and personal experiences. (the deception of spiritualism/existentialism says that our personal existential experience is the final source of truth, what is right is what is right for you, live as you please for heaven is your home, no mind will judge another. Here God respects and works with our existential experience, but that is not the basis of all truth, these people realize that there is an ultimate truth out there in God's law and their relationship and loving the world as Christ has loved it and in their own way they choose against the disposition to think they are for themselves by making less of the outside world. Instead of telling themselves "what feels good and right to me is right" that they know there is a greater truth outside of their feelings that they go towards. Thus since it comes from each personality, the great multitude that no man can number also come from every tribe nation tongue and people.

They are virgins: In the Bible virginity was not held in the high regard that the church came to place it. However during some events, such as when at war sexual activity was to be set aside. The idea of virgins means that they are fully committed to spiritual warfare and fully devoted to Christ as they face the spiritual crisis which we all face in life but will be a special event at the end when every character will be fully developed into either the character of Christ or the character of Satan.

When we accept Christ we are redeemed. But while some people have developed a character of total trust in Christ (many of the martyrs, people like maybe John Wesley etc. who have developed an unshakeable faith) most of us don't reach that state. Others are lost but only a few people of each generation develop a character that is fully diabolical, but most of the lost have not reached that state. At the end of time everyone will have reached one or the other of these two characters. The number is a symbol of reaching that deep and total trust in Christ. The vast mighty throng is how many actual people both in the last generation and through out history have reached this experience of having unshakeable faith in Christ, willing to follow him and do what it right because it is right though the heavens fall.

[Reddogs]

21 hours ago, Kevin H said:

The way I understand it is that the 144,000 is a number indicating a special experience that has been met by people in each generation but which the entire last generation will experience.  (I differ from the last generation theology people because they misinterpret the evidence to understand the last generation to reach a different quality of anyone who lived before, I understand it as a different quantity of people than who have been fully settled into the truth before where nothing can shake them.)

The 12 tribes also represent the basic personality types (the 12 signs of the zodiac are a counterfeit of this) symbolizing that while they have come to have the same deep trust in God that we may not recognize it because God is working with their own unique personalities and personal experiences. (the deception of spiritualism/existentialism says that our personal existential experience is the final source of truth, what is right is what is right for you, live as you please for heaven is your home, no mind will judge another. Here God respects and works with our existential experience, but that is not the basis of all truth, these people realize that there is an ultimate truth out there in God's law and their relationship and loving the world as Christ has loved it and in their own way they choose against the disposition to think they are for themselves by making less of the outside world. Instead of telling themselves "what feels good and right to me is right" that they know there is a greater truth outside of their feelings that they go towards. Thus since it comes from each personality, the great multitude that no man can number also come from every tribe nation tongue and people.

They are virgins: In the Bible virginity was not held in the high regard that the church came to place it. However during some events, such as when at war sexual activity was to be set aside. The idea of virgins means that they are fully committed to spiritual warfare and fully devoted to Christ as they face the spiritual crisis which we all face in life but will be a special event at the end when every character will be fully developed into either the character of Christ or the character of Satan.

When we accept Christ we are redeemed. But while some people have developed a character of total trust in Christ (many of the martyrs, people like maybe John Wesley etc. who have developed an unshakeable faith) most of us don't reach that state. Others are lost but only a few people of each generation develop a character that is fully diabolical, but most of the lost have not reached that state. At the end of time everyone will have reached one or the other of these two characters. The number is a symbol of reaching that deep and total trust in Christ. The vast mighty throng is how many actual people both in the last generation and through out history have reached this experience of having unshakeable faith in Christ, willing to follow him and do what it right because it is right though the heavens fall.

No, it is those saints that live through the end and have to stand without a intercessor, so its not Job, Joseph, or Jeremiah, but only those alive at the end when the plagues come and the time to put the sin where it belongs and bound up Satan comes up.

“Then I saw that Jesus' work in the sanctuary will soon be finished. And after His work there is finished, He will come to the door of the first apartment, and confess the sins of Israel upon the head of the scape-goat. Then He will put on the garments of vengeance. Then the plagues will come upon the wicked, and they do not come till Jesus puts on that garment, and takes His place upon the great white cloud. Then while the plagues are falling, the scape-goat is being led away. He makes a mighty struggle to escape, but he is held fast by the hand that leads him. If he should effect his escape, Israel would lose their lives. I saw that it would take time to lead away the scape-goat into the land of forgetfulness after the sins were put on his head.” Spalding and Magan Collection, p. 2.

 

This ‘mighty effort to escape’ is what the 144,000 go through the time of Jacob’s trouble as Satan sees his time is almost up and pulls out all the stops as if he can make one of the 144,000 fall when without a intercessor, he wins his case.

 

So the 144 000 will fight  at the end to gain the victory over Satan or if they sin, show he was right. So Satan who kept God's people captive in sin is now defeated and sin place on Satan  and is lead into captivity.

 

“They shall take them captives, whose captives they were.” When this mission is successfully accomplished and the authority of God and His supremacy vindicated by His saints before the whole universe, then the resurrection of the just will take place. “In the presence of God and the heavenly angels, and the host of the redeemed, the sins of God's people will be placed upon Satan.” - GC, p. 658.

[Reddogs]

This is why the Sanctuary doctrine is so important, and we need to grasp it, rather than let theologians and false teachers try to tear it down. We must prepare to stand without a mediator, having overcome sin and holy and righteous, not waiting for the Second Coming for sin to be done in our lives, but before Christ comes.

“I saw angels hurrying to and fro in heaven. An angel with a writer's inkhorn by his side returned from the earth and reported to Jesus that his work was done, and the saints were numbered and sealed. Then I saw Jesus, who had been ministering before the ark containing the ten commandments, throw down the censer. He raised His hands, and with a loud voice said, "It is done." And all the angelic host laid off their crowns as Jesus made the solemn declaration, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." {EW 279.2}

 

“Every case had been decided for life or death. While Jesus had been ministering in the sanctuary, the judgment had been going on for the righteous dead, and then for the righteous living. Christ had received His kingdom, having made the atonement for His people and blotted out their sins. The subjects of the kingdom were made up. The marriage of the Lamb was consummated. And the kingdom, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, was given to Jesus and the heirs of salvation, and Jesus was to reign as King of kings and Lord of lords. {EW 280.1}

 

“As Jesus moved out of the most holy place, I heard the tinkling of the bells upon His garment; and as He left, a cloud of darkness covered the inhabitants of the earth. There was then no mediator between guilty man and an offended God. While Jesus had been standing between God and guilty man, a restraint was upon the people; but when He stepped out from between man and the Father, the restraint was removed and Satan had entire control of the finally impenitent. It was impossible for the plagues to be poured out while Jesus officiated in the sanctuary; but as His work there is finished, and His intercession closes, there is nothing to stay the wrath of God, and it breaks with fury upon the shelterless head of the guilty sinner, who has slighted salvation and hated reproof. In that fearful time, after the close of Jesus' mediation, the saints were living in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. Every case was decided, every jewel numbered. Jesus tarried a moment in the outer apartment of the heavenly sanctuary, and the sins which had been confessed while He was in the most holy place were placed upon Satan, the originator of sin, who must suffer their punishment.” {EW 280.2}

[Reddogs]

Those who are just nominal believers will not be ready to stand without a intercessor, and to go through the end as the time of trouble comes. Those who are truly Gods chosen will come to the truth and many in the church now will be shaken out and turn against the truth which they never fully embraced...

 “I saw that God had children who do not see and keep the Sabbath. They have not rejected the light upon it. And at the commencement of the time of trouble, we were filled with the Holy Ghost as we went forth and proclaimed the Sabbath more fully. This enraged the churches and nominal Adventists, as they could not refute the Sabbath truth. And at this time God's chosen all saw clearly that we had the truth, and they came out and endured the persecution with us. I saw the sword, famine, pestilence, and great confusion in the land. The wicked thought that we had brought the judgments upon them, and they rose up and took counsel to rid the earth of us, thinking that then the evil would be stayed.” CET 93.

 

“I saw that the holy Sabbath is, and will be, the separating wall between the true Israel of God and unbelievers; and that the Sabbath is the great question to unite the hearts of God's dear, waiting saints.” EW page 92 ...

 

 

 

 

[Kevin H]

On ‎1‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 8:23 AM, Reddogs said:

No, it is those saints that live through the end and have to stand without a intercessor, so its not Job, Joseph, or Jeremiah, but only those alive at the end when the plagues come and the time to put the sin where it belongs and bound up Satan comes up.

“Then I saw that Jesus' work in the sanctuary will soon be finished. And after His work there is finished, He will come to the door of the first apartment, and confess the sins of Israel upon the head of the scape-goat. Then He will put on the garments of vengeance. Then the plagues will come upon the wicked, and they do not come till Jesus puts on that garment, and takes His place upon the great white cloud. Then while the plagues are falling, the scape-goat is being led away. He makes a mighty struggle to escape, but he is held fast by the hand that leads him. If he should effect his escape, Israel would lose their lives. I saw that it would take time to lead away the scape-goat into the land of forgetfulness after the sins were put on his head.” Spalding and Magan Collection, p. 2.

 

This ‘mighty effort to escape’ is what the 144,000 go through the time of Jacob’s trouble as Satan sees his time is almost up and pulls out all the stops as if he can make one of the 144,000 fall when without a intercessor, he wins his case.

 

So the 144 000 will fight  at the end to gain the victory over Satan or if they sin, show he was right. So Satan who kept God's people captive in sin is now defeated and sin place on Satan  and is lead into captivity.

 

“They shall take them captives, whose captives they were.” When this mission is successfully accomplished and the authority of God and His supremacy vindicated by His saints before the whole universe, then the resurrection of the just will take place. “In the presence of God and the heavenly angels, and the host of the redeemed, the sins of God's people will be placed upon Satan.” - GC, p. 658.

That is what I said. What I did not do was fall to a tradition that has developed in Adventism that Satan is using to keep us from the truth, that it is ONLY these people and that they have a different QUALITY over the spiritual giants of the past. These people will be different in QUANTITY of spiritual giants living in the past. Mrs. White was told that if she was faithful she could be with the 144 thousand. So yes it does include Job, Joseph and Jeremiah.

Those who were developing the different QUALITY got sharp letters from Mrs. White and Willie which I read in the White Estate vault when I was at Andrews. At Atlantic Union College we took a long time looking at both the Mrs. White quotes that the tradition was built upon as well as balancing quotes that tend to be over looked.

What is sad is that Adventism is being divided along the two ditches of either nothing special about the last generation that they are just like the typical among us today. and the other ditch of those who are looking for the different quality. These two views are how Satan gets to use what may be his favorite tactic: divide the truth in half, and people appreciate and see and cheirsh that the half they have is truly truth but for them to use their portion of the truth against the rest of the truth.

[Reddogs]

On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 0:27 PM, Kevin H said:

That is what I said. What I did not do was fall to a tradition that has developed in Adventism that Satan is using to keep us from the truth, that it is ONLY these people and that they have a different QUALITY over the spiritual giants of the past. These people will be different in QUANTITY of spiritual giants living in the past. Mrs. White was told that if she was faithful she could be with the 144 thousand. So yes it does include Job, Joseph and Jeremiah.

Those who were developing the different QUALITY got sharp letters from Mrs. White and Willie which I read in the White Estate vault when I was at Andrews. At Atlantic Union College we took a long time looking at both the Mrs. White quotes that the tradition was built upon as well as balancing quotes that tend to be over looked.

What is sad is that Adventism is being divided along the two ditches of either nothing special about the last generation that they are just like the typical among us today. and the other ditch of those who are looking for the different quality. These two views are how Satan gets to use what may be his favorite tactic: divide the truth in half, and people appreciate and see and cheirsh that the half they have is truly truth but for them to use their portion of the truth against the rest of the truth.

No, these 144, 000 clearly are distinct and have something that Job, and all of those before them do not have and thus have a special place when they get to heaven. They will stand holy, purified, and righteous and without an intercessor, Job and the others didn't do that.

And you misquoted Ellen White, it says she with the 144,000, they are separate.

 

"The Lord has given me a view of other worlds. Wings were given me, and an angel attended me from the city to a place that was bright and glorious. The grass of the place was living green, and the birds there warbled a sweet song. The inhabitants of the place were of all sizes; they were noble, majestic, and lovely. They bore the express image of Jesus, and their countenances beamed with holy joy, expressive of the freedom and happiness of the place. . . . I begged of my attending angel to let me remain in that place. I could not bear the thought of coming back to this dark world again. Then the angel said, 'You must go back, and if you are faithful, you, with* the 144,000, shall have the privilege of visiting all the worlds and viewing the handiwork of God.'"--Early Writings, pp. 39, 40.

*Note: Observe that the promise was given to Mrs. White that if she was faithful, she with the 144,000 would have certain privileges.

http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/144000.html