Seeking forgiveness

[Pockey]

"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift." Matt 5:23-24.

What if you've wronged so many people throughout your life, and the people are scattered all across the land, and you're not sure how to find them or get in touch with them, does God forgive you if you are sorry for your sins? Does He expect at least some sort of effort to get in touch with those people?

[archierieus]

Without any doubt, I would say that God forgives you if you are sorry for your sins, repent of them and ask Him to forgive you. Some wrongs cannot be made right. For example, what if you murder someone? How could you make that one right? Or, what if you wrong someone, and he or she passes away before you are converted? I understand that, as far as possible, a person will right the wrongs that have been done. Personally, I ask God to lead, and direct me to anyone whom I need to get ahold of. Recently, that happened, I felt impressed to contact someone. I could not locate him, so I went on the internet to use a 'people finder' program. Finally found an address, no phone, so sent a letter. Haven't heard back, but I do feel peace with God, having done what I could.

Dave

[Nicodema]

Interesting, I was thinking about this very same verse either today or last night. One thing I find interesting is that it says "if your brother has something against you." Doesn't necessarily say you are guilty of anything, just that someone is bearing something against you. People sometimes get offended at others where no offense was offered or intended (I know I've done that before, at least, if I can trust that others were speaking truthfully when they said nothing was intended, and not just covering up or justifying themselves.) So my questions would be different about this verse. One of them might be how can you be reconciled to someone who believes you did them wrong when you did not do what they think you did? Or if you are honestly not sorry for something held against you, how can you be reconciled then? I'm assuming the Lord would not want us to lie to one another ...

[Pockey]

That's a good observation. I kind've just assumed that if the brother has something against you, then that means you did something wrong. But you're right, it doesn't say that you are necessarily guilty of anything. But even if you're not guilty, maybe the verse is saying to clear up the misunderstanding with the person so that they won't have anything against you anymore. Because if you know that they are upset, it wouldn't be right to just let them sit and stew in their grumblings, regardless of if it was your fault or not.

[Morning Glory]

I agree with what you said here, Sid. I think that what the text is trying to say is that we should get any misunderstanding with others cleared up as soon as possible in order that these issues not fester and be a stumbling block to us or them. I don't know about you, but when I know that someone is not happy with me, it weighs on my mind. I feel so much better when things are cleared up. I really think that that is how Jesus wants us to interact with others. Keep lines of communication open. Maybe it is also saying that if we keep lines of communication open with people, that is also clears the lines of communication with God. Or, stated a different way, if there are issues with others, that will spill over into our relataionship with God. Just a thought that popped into my mind.

[Nicodema]

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Sid said:

Because if you know that they are upset, it wouldn't be right to just let them sit and stew in their grumblings, regardless of if it was your fault or not.

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Hmmm ... I have a hard time picturing anyone "stewing in their grumblings" where I am concerned. My experience has never been that of having that kind of "power" where other people or their feelings are concerned. With the exception of perhaps family members or really close people in my life, my experience has been that people don't care enough about me or what I do to "permit" me (or it) to affect them in the heart or at any level that really matters. They might look at me and judge ME over it, saying I'm a bad horrible person or whatever if I act this way or that way, but allow it to affect them personally? Never.

That's why I don't pay any attention to their judgments and accusations, either. If they aren't personally invested in the matter, why should I be?

[Nicodema]

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Morning Glory said:

I don't know about you, but when I know that someone is not happy with me, it weighs on my mind. I feel so much better when things are cleared up. I really think that that is how Jesus wants us to interact with others. Keep lines of communication open.

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It weighs on my mind too, but I have a hard time knowing what to do with cases like the ones I mentioned above.

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Maybe it is also saying that if we keep lines of communication open with people, that is also clears the lines of communication with God. Or, stated a different way, if there are issues with others, that will spill over into our relataionship with God. Just a thought that popped into my mind.

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I'm sorry, I have to reject that idea personally. I do believe if we do not make ourselves willing to FORGIVE that can block our relationship with God, but it's impossible to have open lines of communication with everyone, particularly with people who are not about to bend in the slightest to allow room for one to be oneself, and imperfect, and still be "OK" (that is, accorded what I call Christian benefit of the doubt). Some people just refuse to communicate clean; some just refuse to consider anything from you in a positive light rather than a negative one; some just are so different it's impossible to communicate clean even with BOTH parties trying ("tower of Babel syndrome"!!) Some are abusive and/or controlling by nature and thus just not safe to attempt further communication with until such a time as they can get their own issues healed. Some may have broken your trust or ruined their credibility with you and while you can forgive them for being "only human" and having their own "junk" to sort out, it doesn't mean you need to be present in their life to act the convenient punching bag while they project issues from their ex-spouse or their mama onto you, y'know?

So I don't want my ability to get close to God hindered by the faults and imperfections with others -- and I honestly don't believe He would put that heavy a burden or onus on me personally -- that would be too heavy to bear, not easy and light like Jesus' yoke is. Therefore I have to respectfully disagree with this idea. BUT if this idea produces positive things for you then by all means, don't be discouraged by my input here, which comes from my own situations. Go on benefitting from it!

[Gail]

During the sermon this Sabbath, the pastor asked the congregation that if at that big Heavenly banqueting table God had assigned seating, would there be people at your table with whom you'd be uncomfortable?

It could happen... <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Point is, that Jesus breaks down all barriers

[Nicodema]

Hmmm ... not sure about that Gail.

Not sure Jesus breaks down all barriers at all.

Honestly.

[olger]

Hello friends.

Each of us will suffer many wrongs in life. This world is a fracturing place. We cannot control what others do or say to us. The only thing we can do is to have a proper attitude towards those who have hurt us.

Forgiveness is costly. It is always one person paying a price for the "transgressions" of another. As Jesus took my million sins and went to the cross, am I willing to forgive those who have wronged me? There is a good reason that God has linked His forgiveness of us with our forgiveness of others.

The enemy is anxious to lock our hearts with bitterness. The Bible says that each heart knows its own bitterness (Prov 14:10). Unresolved bitterness will lead to many worse consequences.

For instance, Bitterness will lead to resentment. Resentment will lead to anger. Anger will lead to depression. Depression will lead to despair, and despair will ultimately lead to suicidal thoughts. The root issue in this illustration is unresolved bitterness. But, there is hope. The heart can be set free by the One who came to heal the brokenhearted.

I like the words of Jeremiah. "For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you. And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart."

God is in the business of changing lives.

(I realize that i am kind of the new kid on the block here. I don't mean to say too much, too fast. Forgive me if it seems like I have).

brother gcw

[Morning Glory]

Hi Nicodema,

I have been pondering this subject and your comments for some time now. I occassionally have these random thoughts that come from "nowhere" is seems, and my fingers just typed it out. So, I left it. I don't have a problem with you disagreeing with me. Thank you for being kind about it.

I am all too well aware of people who fit the description you gave, and just can't be communicated with for all of these reasons. Those weren't the people I was referring to. I think that those are the kinds of folks that we are to shake the dust of our feet off at, like Jesus said. Leave them alone as they are poison, won't change their minds, and will be a hinderance, or something to that effect. We have done what WE can, and if they aren't willing to do their part, leave them alone!!

What I was trying to say is this. That WE need to have an openess about us in regard to forgiveness. Not as a "works" thing. You are so right that there are folks who you can't really communicate with, and I think that one should leave those folks alone!! No where does Jesus say that we should be door mats.

From your post, it sounds like you have certain people in mind.....so perhaps you were speaking of specific situations that I had no way of knowing. I was speaking in generalities.

God Bless, MG

[Nicodema]

I guess to me, forgiving is something we do for someone who recognizes a need for it. If someone wrongs me, recognizes it, and says they are sorry or asks if I will forgive, my immediate response is, "of course!" And that's the end of that. But when people don't own up, and justify themselves instead, there is no opening or opportunity TO forgive, because they refuse or fail to acknowledge anything NEEDING forgiving. In those cases, I feel that if I were to simply "let it slide" that this would be the same thing as condoning their sin. Doesn't mean I'm going to make it my life's work to seek revenge on them or anything, but why should I enable them in self-deception? Why should I pretend nothing happened or that it was my fault somehow? I don't see how that would serve anyone well. I would then be a liar, and they would then remain deluded.

[Morning Glory]

Good points. As I understand it, we are to forgive even if the one who needs to admit their wrong doesn't/won't/can't ie: they are dead or otherwise unavailable. That doesn't make is easy or any other such thing. Nor, does it let their wrong slide as it were. Jesus aksed God's forgiveness on behalf of the ones who drove the nails in to his body. I am not sure that I could do that......but He did. THEY didn't ask for HIS forgiveness that they were doing this to Him.

I have heard that one way to achieve this is to write a letter to the one in question........ and then destroy it by burning or ripping up or whichever method appeals to you.

I don't think that you should enable them or act as if nothing happened. However, if they aren't willing to own up, perhaps the best thing is to not have them in your life.

That doesn't mean that YOU can't absolve yourself of the "mess" by forgiving them to the best of your ability with God's help, of course. That doesn't mean that you are condoning what happened!! But, you work through it somehow in order to get it off YOUR plate.

I don't think that I am helping here. I know situations like this, and it is difficult to say the least. Sometimes I have had to come to terms that these kinds of indivduals can be dealt with on a superficial basis, only, if you can't get away from them. And, you NEVER really trust them or let your guard down.

You have to remember that some of these kinds of people WANT to remain deluded!!! Nothing that you can do about that. Except pray for wisdom to know how to handle the situation. Doesn't happen easliy or overnite. But at some point, you WILL have peace about it. Because our God is like that.

Not easy stuff to deal with, and please don't interpret this to mean that I think it is!! Another good reason to hold each other up to our Father as there ARE no easy answers, but He can and will help us with even the toughest things in life. You are right, sometimes it feels as if the barriers are NEVER broken down. But, there is a way of dealing with those things that only He can impart.

God bless, MG

[Nicodema]

Hey MG, don't say you're not helping. I think your insights are very helpful. In fact, I think it is really helpful in such cases to focus on what forgiveness can do for US. Most of the time people present forgiveness in these cases as an "obligation" -- which leaves it with a dirty taste in the mouth, as though great, not only can person X reach out and hurt you but they can re-injure you in the same blow by "obligating" you to just swallow or stuff the pain inside for THEIR sake by "obligating" you to forgive them without any effort on THEIR part to own up to their end of the business. So then forgiveness gets presented too often as yet another pain -- it is as if not only can they reach out and stab us but they can obligate us (if we care about being "good people" or "good Christians") to stab ourselves for THEIR convenience/pleasure in the wake of that. (Their stab = the injury they did to us; our stab into ourselves = swallowing or "stuffing" the hurt to "forgive" them). If we can find a way to present forgiveness as something good and healthy for US, a way for US to find relief, release and liberation from enslavement to what THEY did -- instead of something we "owe" them somehow -- it makes it way sweeter, way better, You know? In that sense it's almost better than revenge. It's like the last laugh, that laughs best!

Wow, all that made me ....... now if only I could convince MYSELF of all that ..........!

[Clio]

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I guess to me, forgiving is something we do for someone who recognizes a need for it.

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I find as I think of forgiveness, and walk it out in my own life, that there are many who I think don't deserve forgiveness, but that by failing to forgive them, I internalize the anger and rage that their actions or self-justification engendered in me in the first place.

Very slowly, over the years, I have come to the conclusion that Abba's and True Jesus injunction to forgive so that the Father can forgive us, is not for the benefit of those who hurt us, but for our own benefit.

Choosing to forgive someone, even if they don't "deserve" it or fail to see their need of forgiveness, releases the negative, damaging emotions in my own spirit that could so easily lead to bitterness and resentment, which do impact my relationship with both True Jesus and Abba.

I also find, that when there is someone I must forgive, whom I deem "undeserving" of my forgiveness, that initially, I do not have the ability of my own self to actually forgive them. The only ability that I have is to choose to forgive them, and then tell True Jesus that I place them, all that they have done to me in His hands, and that I choose forgiveness over resentment and bitterness.

Forgiveness is not for the benefit of those we forgive. It is for our benefit. It renews us, it refreshes us, and makes us as new wineskins for new wine. It also makes us receptive to the acceptance of a forgiving Father, and is a hedge of protection against the condemnation and guilt that the Adversary would have us believe is our portion. And that attempt to hem us in with condemnation and guilt is a vile lie.

[Morning Glory]

WOW!! That is pretty much what I was trying to say a couple of posts ago!! Thanks!!

MG

[Clio]

Check your PM's.

[olger]

Harboring bitterness is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.

It will also defile the people around us, according to Hebrews 12:15.

gcw