Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted February 2, 2017 Moderators Posted February 2, 2017 See: http://spectrummagazine.org/article/2017/02/01/god-pours-spirit-without-measure As is typical for me, I often cite posts that may stimulate discussion and not because of my agreement with the reference. Regardless of overall agreement/disagreement with the above, it does contain some interesting comments. The following is one interesting comment from the article: Quote God does not dispense the Holy Spirit with a drop- counter, or a measuring spoon. God pours love and the Spirit prodigally on all. It is because God has given us the Holy Spirit to start with that he pours his love on us. God does not react to our effort by dispensing a bit more of the Spirit if we meet certain conditions. Rather, it is because God has poured the Spirit on us that we are transformed by the Spirit from one degree of glory to another. Paul does not teach that Christians must show themselves worthy before God would give them more of the Spirit. He writes, “it is the God who said, ‘Let light shine out of darkness,’ who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ: (1 Cor. 4: 6). The glory of God that shines in the face of the Risen Christ also shines in the hearts of all Christians giving them the power and the guidance of the Spirit that causes this glory to increase in brightness. Quote Gregory
Joe_in_RP Posted February 5, 2017 Posted February 5, 2017 On Thursday, February 02, 2017 at 10:14 PM, Gregory Matthews said: God does not react to our effort by dispensing a bit more of the Spirit if we meet certain conditions. Hmm. What about : “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. or Parable of the Talents 14 “For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them. 15 To one he gave five [a]talents, to another, two, and to another, one, each according to his own ability; and he went on his journey. 16 Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them, and gained five more talents. 17 In the same manner the one who had received the two talents gained two more. 18 But he who received the one talent went away, and dug a hole in the ground and hid his [b]master’s money. 19 “Now after a long time the master of those slaves *came and *settled accounts with them. 20 The one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying, ‘Master, you entrusted five talents to me. See, I have gained five more talents.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your [c]master.’ 22 “Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, ‘Master, you entrusted two talents to me. See, I have gained two more talents.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 “And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. 25 And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’ 26 “But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. 27 Then you ought to have put my money [d]in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28 Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’ 29 “For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Seems like God is rewarding or taking away to me. Quote
Joe_in_RP Posted February 5, 2017 Posted February 5, 2017 Quote Herold Weiss is professor emeritus of Religious Studies at Saint Mary's College, Notre Dame, Indiana. About Us Our goal is to foster community through conversation. This website is the online companion to Spectrum, a journal established to encourage Seventh-day Adventist participation in the discussion of contemporary issues from a Christian viewpoint, to look without prejudice at all sides of a subject, to evaluate the merits of diverse views, and to foster intellectual and cultural growth. Hello ! Is it a wonder that an author from Notre Dame, would have non Adventist views? Quote
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted February 5, 2017 Author Moderators Posted February 5, 2017 Joe-in_RP: I did not make the statement that you attributed to me. What you attributed tome came fro9m an article that I cited. Gregory Matthews 1 Quote Gregory
Moderators Gregory Matthews Posted February 5, 2017 Author Moderators Posted February 5, 2017 Joe: You reference Herold Weiss and his former relationship to a Roman Catholic school. It is hard to respond to you as you have not been explicit in what you are saying. Rather you imply and leave your comment open to differences in understanding. I may be wrong about you, but, it seems to me that you really know very little about Dr. Weiss. To be specific, while I may be wrong, it seems to me that you know very little about his religious background. If you actually knew about Dr. Weiss, you would know that he has a deep knowledge of SDA Doctrine and practice. You would know of the numerous published works (Both books and articles) about the SDA denomination. The following is one 2015 article on EGW: http://spectrummagazine.org/article/2015/07/14/ellen-white-subject-adventist-scholarship NOTE: He has published much more outside of SPECTRUM than has been published by it. By the way, his association with Adventism is so close that I believe he is currently living in Berrien Springs--the home of Andrews University. I happens to have some disagreements with Dr. Weiss. But, to be clear he holds beliefs that are well within Adventism. He has written books that are helpful to Adventism. He is an Adventist scholar who has taught in Roman Catholic, Baptist and SDA schools. I will simply say that we should not simply dismiss him as being outside of Adventism. This does not mean that we need to accept everything that he says. I do not and some others who know him do not. As I said at the beginning: Your comment about him was not explicit. You may not have intended anything about which I have mentioned. O.K. Quote Gregory
Administrators debbym Posted February 6, 2017 Administrators Posted February 6, 2017 Quote God does not dispense the Holy Spirit with a drop- counter, or a measuring spoon. God pours love and the Spirit prodigally on all. It is because God has given us the Holy Spirit to start with that he pours his love on us. God does not react to our effort by dispensing a bit more of the Spirit if we meet certain conditions. Rather, it is because God has poured the Spirit on us that we are transformed by the Spirit from one degree of glory to another. Paul does not teach that Christians must show themselves worthy before God would give them more of the Spirit. He writes, “it is the God who said, ‘Let light shine out of darkness,’ who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ: (1 Cor. 4: 6). The glory of God that shines in the face of the Risen Christ also shines in the hearts of all Christians giving them the power and the guidance of the Spirit that causes this glory to increase in brightness. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is an interesting quote and i would respond by saying.... it was said of Jesus that he received the Holy Spirit without measure because he was surrendered to the will of God with all of His heart and mind and soul. The work of the Spirit is to bring us into that unity with God's will. God is in charge of our sanctification and he is the author and finisher of our faith. He is leading us to more and more of his blessings. We limit the measure of His blessings by our unbelief, our resistance to God's efforts to bless us more and more fully. somewhere i got this thought... That in mercy God does not pour the Spirit on us more than we are ready or we would simply become confirmed in our sin that we have not relinquished. The work of the Spirit is a savor of life unto life or of death unto death either hardening or softening us. Quote deb Love awakens love. Let God be true and every man a liar.
Joe_in_RP Posted February 7, 2017 Posted February 7, 2017 Quote it seems to me that you really know very little about Dr. Weiss. Gregory. You are absolutely correct. I never heard of him until now. Thank you for the insight. It makes more sense now. But I go back to the two scriptures I quoted. Based on those two, its seems conditional to me. Quote
Gary K Posted February 9, 2017 Posted February 9, 2017 On 2/5/2017 at 8:03 PM, debbym said: God does not dispense the Holy Spirit with a drop- counter, or a measuring spoon. God pours love and the Spirit prodigally on all. It is because God has given us the Holy Spirit to start with that he pours his love on us. God does not react to our effort by dispensing a bit more of the Spirit if we meet certain conditions. Rather, it is because God has poured the Spirit on us that we are transformed by the Spirit from one degree of glory to another. Paul does not teach that Christians must show themselves worthy before God would give them more of the Spirit. He writes, “it is the God who said, ‘Let light shine out of darkness,’ who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ: (1 Cor. 4: 6). The glory of God that shines in the face of the Risen Christ also shines in the hearts of all Christians giving them the power and the guidance of the Spirit that causes this glory to increase in brightness. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This is an interesting quote and i would respond by saying.... it was said of Jesus that he received the Holy Spirit without measure because he was surrendered to the will of God with all of His heart and mind and soul. The work of the Spirit is to bring us into that unity with God's will. God is in charge of our sanctification and he is the author and finisher of our faith. He is leading us to more and more of his blessings. We limit the measure of His blessings by our unbelief, our resistance to God's efforts to bless us more and more fully. somewhere i got this thought... That in mercy God does not pour the Spirit on us more than we are ready or we would simply become confirmed in our sin that we have not relinquished. The work of the Spirit is a savor of life unto life or of death unto death either hardening or softening us. Hi Debbym, The quote you gave doesn't seem to jibe with the Bible. Jesus was given the Spirit "without measure" because He hated iniquity according to Isaiah. The disciples were given different measures of the Holy Spirit during their lifetimes. The Spirit first saw to it that they recognized Jesus as the Messiah. However, they did not really understand His mission. They still thought He was come to drive out the hated Romans. That was one level. The disciples were then given another measure of the Spirit when Jesus sent them out the first time giving them the power to perform miracles, cast out demons, and the like. Even then they did not understand the mission of Christ. Then after Pentacost they were given a different level of the Spirit altogether for then they understood all that Jesus had attempted to teach them during His life here. In other words, the scriptures were fully opened to their understanding. That's three different levels of the Holy Spirit being dispensed to the same people at different times. It's very apparent that the level of the Spirit given to the disciples at Pentacost was not given to the entire church at that time for the apostles would not then have had to teach the church members anything for the Holy Spirit, if given at the same level as to the apostles to the average member, would have fully understood already whatever the apostles had to say. The Galatians would not, could not, have been bewitched by the Judaizers for they would have seen through the deception immediately. The Corinthians would not, could not, have allowed the corruption in their church that Paul condemned them for. Would Annanias and Sapphira have attempted to lie to the Holy Spirit if they had truly been filled with it as much as Peter was? It is pretty problematic to assume that all believers are given the same levels of filling with the Holy Spirit. The Bible just doesn't support it. Quote
Administrators debbym Posted February 10, 2017 Administrators Posted February 10, 2017 5 hours ago, Gary K said: Hi Debbym, The quote you gave doesn't seem to jibe with the Bible. Jesus was given the Spirit "without measure" because He hated iniquity according to Isaiah. The disciples were given different measures of the Holy Spirit during their lifetimes. It is pretty problematic to assume that all believers are given the same levels of filling with the Holy Spirit. The Bible just doesn't support it. I don't understand why you are saying that i indicated all believers were given the same measure of the Holy Spirit. I missed that. Jesus's was in perfect union with His Father which can be described from many sides including what you have said. To Love God is to Hate sin. As earnestly as Jesus hated sin he loved humanity, and he Loved His Father. Of course He hated those things that brought death. He perfectly fulfilled His Father's will for his life in every way. Every move of the Spirit moved him perfectly. Quote deb Love awakens love. Let God be true and every man a liar.
Gary K Posted February 10, 2017 Posted February 10, 2017 44 minutes ago, debbym said: I don't understand why you are saying that i indicated all believers were given the same measure of the Holy Spirit. I missed that. Jesus's was in perfect union with His Father which can be described from many sides including what you have said. To Love God is to Hate sin. As earnestly as Jesus hated sin he loved humanity, and he Loved His Father. Of course He hated those things that brought death. He perfectly fulfilled His Father's will for his life in every way. Every move of the Spirit moved him perfectly. I'm sorry. I misunderstood what you were saying. After re-reading your post that is very apparent to me. To me it seemed as if you were agreeing with the article the first time I read your post. Must have been a "senior moment". debbym 1 Quote
Administrators debbym Posted February 10, 2017 Administrators Posted February 10, 2017 26 minutes ago, Gary K said: I'm sorry. I misunderstood what you were saying. After re-reading your post that is very apparent to me. To me it seemed as if you were agreeing with the article the first time I read your post. Must have been a "senior moment". i have been there and done that, all is ok. Quote deb Love awakens love. Let God be true and every man a liar.
Gary K Posted February 10, 2017 Posted February 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, debbym said: i have been there and done that, all is ok. Thank you. Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.