Dress code in church?

[pierrepaul]

3 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

Oh, so when you go to a church dedicated in and for His name in the day He has specially set aside, God is not there present to meet with you?

Since our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, how much more important then that we pay attention to what goes in and how we adorn that temple specially when we go and worship Him in the house dedicated to Him on the day He dedicated for fellowship?  The earthly tabernacle and temple were not only beautiful inside but beautiful on the outside as well.

 

If we are baptized and have received the Holy Spirit, God is with us in Church; He is with us in our homes; He is with us in our workplace; He is with us on vacation; He is with us at the supermarket. I believe Matthew 28:20 was not just for the disciples to whom Jesus spoke in person, but that it is a promise for all Christians. We don't go to church to "meet" God or to "approach" Him; as He is with us on the journey to church. As Christians we are to take care of our health, appearance, and behaviour at all times, including, but not limited to, the Sabbath church service.

However, I agree that Sabbath church service is important - and that therefore our preparation for the service, and our attitudes in such service, ought to reflect such importance. This means (IMO) arriving on time (to the extent possible); being prepared for any part one plays in the service (music, sabbath school teaching, offering, prayer, etc.), and being appropriately dressed (which varies according to cultural norms). Dress affects one's mental state and attitude. But this is my personal view. I search in vain for specific Scriptural counsel.

Regarding appearance and dress, but for limited counsel given by Paul (which counsel was given in general, not specific to church services), I see no scriptural basis regarding dress in our meeting halls. Dress is a matter of cultural norms. If one were to ask me, I might offer the opinion that a top-hat and cape may be inappropriate for a 21st century North American church service (in the 19th century, it may have been appropriate). Ecclesiastical or academic robes might be inappropriate for a Seventh-day Adventist preacher. Nor would a wig and powder be appropriate adornment for a 21st century church service (in the 17th century perhaps it would be appropriate for members of the aristocracy). In the 1st century, perhaps robes for men were appropriate; in the 21st century, I would think that a man should not wear a robe to church.

Aside from Paul's counsel about wearing hats, and his counsel regarding women's attire, I see no scriptural guidance regarding dress, other than the general counsel of 1 Corinthians 8:9. I believe that a Christian who feels "at liberty" to dress down for Sabbath church service should not do so if such action will constitute a stumbling block for others.

For men, it's easy - a dark suit, white shirt and simple tie is almost never out of place. Even in a "casual" congregation, or an less formal service (Friday vespers, Sabbath afternoon study), the simple suit is almost always acceptable.

[pierrepaul]

2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Wow.  This thread is truly turning bizarre.  This much angst over what one can or cannot wear to church?  Wow. 

LOL - I don't see much angst - just friendly discussion and exchange of views.

[CoAspen]

I'm with you JoeMo.....It reminds me of a play by Shakespeare, "Much ado about Nothing" !!!

Also reminds me of a ,slow news day, when you get a bunch of stuff reported on that is just fluff without any real news worthiness!

No wonder so many people through out EGW entirely when reading such stuff as to when you take a bath...according to EGW!!!

(Its really a simple thing, if you need one take one, if someone says, 'when did you last take a bath, maybe its a sign and not from heaven!)

[JoeMo]

4 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

one should bathe prior to the beginning of the Sabbath.

There is a big difference between "should bathe" and God showed me that everyone must bathe".  One is a suggestion; the other is a command.  Could it be that EGW was simply suggesting that one should bathe?

I'm confused why bathing comes up in a topic about dress codes.  I usually bathe naked (no clothes = no dress code).  To be precise, I usually shower naked. I've never seen anything in EGW's writings that suggests what to wear in the tub on either Preparation Day or Sabbath.  Am I disrespecting Sister White because I shower rather than bathe? 

[Gregory Matthews]

Green, I have given you two statements of EGW where she suggests that people should bathe on the  Sabbath.  You have provided one where she  says  that people should bathe on Friday and none were she says in concrete terms that people should not bathe on the Sabbath.

[Green Cochoa]

1 hour ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Green, I have given you two statements of EGW where she suggests that people should bathe on the  Sabbath.  You have provided one where she  says  that people should bathe on Friday and none were she says in concrete terms that people should not bathe on the Sabbath.

I had an extensive reply addressing both the contextual issues which you have ignored and adding several additional quotes to the one I had earlier quoted, but this forum software glitched on me again and I lost the entirety of it.  So be it.  That was over half an hour of my time, and I'm not now going to repeat it.  Nevertheless, your understanding of Mrs. White's context is lacking in your interpretation.

[Green Cochoa]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

There is a big difference between "should bathe" and God showed me that everyone must bathe".

Perhaps there is a big difference in your mind between "thou shalt not" and "remember" as well.  Nonetheless, we are commanded by the use of the latter to keep the Sabbath.  The word "should" is often used in reference to commands in the Bible and I take it to be so with Mrs. White as well. 

[JoeMo]

11 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

Nevertheless, your understanding of Mrs. White's context is lacking in your interpretation

Is it really lacking, or are you offended because Gregory doesn't think like you do?  Methinks it is the latter.  I highly doubt that when we bath or don't bathe is a salvational matter worth getting lathered up about (unless yu are taking a bath - then getting lathered up is a good thing.)

[JoeMo]

1 minute ago, Green Cochoa said:

Perhaps there is a big difference in your mind between "thou shalt not" and "remember" as well.

Now you have hurt my feelings! 

[Gregory Matthews]

Greeen, my context may be lacking.

Regardless, you have failed to show where EGW stated that we should not bathe on the Sabbath.  All you have done is show that's she said we should bathe on the Sabbath.  That is not context.  that is what she said.

I have shown that EGW said that some people should bathe every day, either morning or evening. 

Everyday includes the Sabbath.

[Gregory Matthews]

At the center of this discussion is the issue of how to understand what Ellen White has written. The following links come from the EGW Estate website and I believe contain some valuable advice.

http://whiteestate.org/issues/herm-pri.html

http://whiteestate.org/issues/herm-int.html

http://whiteestate.org/issues/herm-ext.html

 

[Green Cochoa]

8 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Greeen, my context may be lacking.

Regardless, you have failed to show where EGW stated that we should not bathe on the Sabbath.  All you have done is show that's she said we should bathe on the Sabbath.  That is not context.  that is what she said.

I have shown that EGW said that some people should bathe every day, either morning or evening. 

Everyday includes the Sabbath.

I hope you don't eat any vegetables, Gregory.  Mrs. White said fruits, grains, and nuts should be the food of all who are preparing for translation to heaven.

You see, your "everyday" had a specific context, one which you have ignored.  As for my "failure" to show where EGW stated we should not bathe on the Sabbath, blame the forum software--because I would have certainly done so.  It glitched on me, and is still glitching.  Just now the thread updated with this post of yours and presented me the message that you had replied.  Upon clicking the usual link to show that reply, the forum presented a second link just like it, which I also clicked.  Then it took me here:

I was a bit surprised to find I had landed in a separate thread entirely.  I had not clicked on that topic even once before, so it was not a browser cache issue, I can assure you.  I just now see another "Gregory Matthews has replied...Show Reply" link, but I will not click it this time.  Who knows, maybe it was something like that which popped up and interrupted my prior attempt to respond to you, causing me to lose the entire post.

[Green Cochoa]

Quote

We desire that our children should study to the best advantage. In order to do this, employment should be given them which would call into exercise the muscles. Daily, systematic labor should constitute a part of the education of youth even at this late period. Much can now be gained in connecting labor with schools. The students will acquire, in following this plan, elasticity of spirit and vigor of thought, and can accomplish more mental labor, in a given time, than they could by study alone. And they can leave their schools with their constitutions unimpaired, with strength and courage to persevere in any position in which the providence of God may place them.  {CE 22.1} 

Does the above mean our young people should be taught to work on the Sabbath?  Or was this instruction given in a specific context--that of school training which was outside of Sabbath time?  I would accept the contextual interpretation.  She is not talking about the Sabbath in this statement.  She is talking about the school and the education of youth.  But she says "daily" in reference to the "labor," and it is obvious she is talking about physical labor of the secular variety, based on the context.

Now, let's see if this will actually post...

[Green Cochoa]

33 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

All you have done is show that's she said we should bathe on the Sabbath.  That is not context.  that is what she said.

I did no such thing.  You have misrepresented me.  You have applied your own lack of contextual understanding to my view and painted me as the one holding your understanding.  But here...

Quote

We wish that every drone might be compelled to toil for his daily bread, for work is a blessing, not a curse. Diligent labor will keep us from many of the snares of Satan, who "finds some mischief still for idle hands to do."  {CH 417.2}

If you eat on the Sabbath, according to Mrs. White, you should work to do so.  I hope you understand the context of "daily" in the above.  If you apply it to the "toil" you will be wresting the context.  That is also how you have treated the daily bath subject.  Not a single one of the quotes you have provided specifies that bathing should take place during the Sabbath hours.

But we can certainly change our clothes on the Sabbath, and have more than one clean outfit in readiness for that day.

[Gregory Matthews]

Well, Green, you and I have both stated our positons and made our points.

Everyone reading them can judge them for themselves.

Extending my right hand to you to shake yours.

 

 

[GayatfootofCross]

Well......

I think The Ladies should indeed wear her best to church! But it would be according to mY fine taste and delicate fashionable sensibilities!

Glorious beaded sweeping gowns with arm length gloves (ya know there was a time when no self respecting woman  stepped outside her homes without her lil white gloves with a delicate pearl button on the wrist)

and a matching TaLL head piece.

Modest for sure but tailored nicely.

I think many pleats would have a great effect when one twirls but only with multiple slips and ruffles and bloomers to show not self with impropriety.

Whalebone and cage crinoline and bustles are optional.

 

And now for You Gents!

Of course when sitting and having herbal tea with the  Ladies at potluck, one must show himself as quite dapper.

Tuxes with tails and top hats are all the rage!

It don't have to be black anymore!

But please if one must wear bright colours -a Zoot Suit will be more becoming to enter into The Sanctuary.

And spats! All men must wear spats!

 

On 2/22/2017 at 0:04 PM, Gerry Cabalo said:

My best has nothing to do with whether you like it or not!

u funnneeeee

..and ..I still expect you to show up at Church with spats ..I will be there at your church inspecting

 

 

# bestofabygoneera

[Green Cochoa]

Sorry about so many short posts, but I'm afraid of losing it all in one basket now.  Here's another use of "daily work" for consideration.

Quote

     In the home training of the youth the principle of co-operation is invaluable. From their earliest years children should be led to feel that they are a part of the home firm. Even the little ones should be trained to share in the daily work and should be made to feel that their help is needed and is appreciated. The older ones should be their parents' assistants, entering into their plans and sharing their responsibilities and burdens. Let fathers and mothers take time to teach their children, let them show that they value their help, desire their confidence, and enjoy their companionship, and the children will not be slow to respond. Not only will the parents' burden be lightened, and the children receive a practical training of inestimable worth, but there will be a strengthening of the home ties and a deepening of the very foundations of character.  {Ed 285.1} 

Without a contextual understanding, knowing what Mrs. White teaches about Sabbath observance and necessarily excluding the Sabbath from her intended meaning here, this would apply to children working every day in "the home firm."

Quote

Every day there is housework to be done--cooking, washing dishes, sweeping, and dusting. Mothers, have you taught your daughters to do these daily duties? . . . Their muscles need exercise. In the place of getting exercise by jumping and playing ball or croquet, let their exercise be to some purpose.  {CG 352.1} 

Really?  Every day?  But her context was not that of the Sabbath, was it?  I hope you see the importance of finding a clear link to the Sabbath in the statements you found before jumping to conclusions as to Mrs. White's intent.  So far, you have proven nothing regarding Sabbath bathing.

[CoAspen]

Quote

....well, my friend. It looks like you are keeping pretty busy reading about all the "nothing." lol 

Sometimes it is just to much fun to not comment! Hopefuly we can have fun in heaven!

[Green Cochoa]

If you want a good dose of hypocrisy, enough to make one laugh (especially past the first paragraph), check out this (apparently) Jewish explanation:

http://www.dailyhalacha.com/m/halacha.aspx?id=2518

The only part that intrigues me is their analysis of a potentially "biblical" violation of the Sabbath by the practices they forbid.  I suppose it was rules like this that Jesus faced when He walked this earth!

[Gerr]

On 2/23/2017 at 0:44 PM, pierrepaul said:

If we are baptized and have received the Holy Spirit, God is with us in Church; He is with us in our homes; He is with us in our workplace; He is with us on vacation; He is with us at the supermarket. I believe Matthew 28:20 was not just for the disciples to whom Jesus spoke in person, but that it is a promise for all Christians. We don't go to church to "meet" God or to "approach" Him; as He is with us on the journey to church. As Christians we are to take care of our health, appearance, and behaviour at all times, including, but not limited to, the Sabbath church service.

However, I agree that Sabbath church service is important - and that therefore our preparation for the service, and our attitudes in such service, ought to reflect such importance. This means (IMO) arriving on time (to the extent possible); being prepared for any part one plays in the service (music, sabbath school teaching, offering, prayer, etc.), and being appropriately dressed (which varies according to cultural norms). Dress affects one's mental state and attitude. But this is my personal view. I search in vain for specific Scriptural counsel.

Regarding appearance and dress, but for limited counsel given by Paul (which counsel was given in general, not specific to church services), I see no scriptural basis regarding dress in our meeting halls. Dress is a matter of cultural norms. If one were to ask me, I might offer the opinion that a top-hat and cape may be inappropriate for a 21st century North American church service (in the 19th century, it may have been appropriate). Ecclesiastical or academic robes might be inappropriate for a Seventh-day Adventist preacher. Nor would a wig and powder be appropriate adornment for a 21st century church service (in the 17th century perhaps it would be appropriate for members of the aristocracy). In the 1st century, perhaps robes for men were appropriate; in the 21st century, I would think that a man should not wear a robe to church.

Aside from Paul's counsel about wearing hats, and his counsel regarding women's attire, I see no scriptural guidance regarding dress, other than the general counsel of 1 Corinthians 8:9. I believe that a Christian who feels "at liberty" to dress down for Sabbath church service should not do so if such action will constitute a stumbling block for others.

For men, it's easy - a dark suit, white shirt and simple tie is almost never out of place. Even in a "casual" congregation, or an less formal service (Friday vespers, Sabbath afternoon study), the simple suit is almost always acceptable.

For me the "code" is really very simple - be at your best when meeting the Lord.

[Gerr]

On 2/22/2017 at 4:04 PM, JoeMo said:

No; I am saying that there is less than 100% correlation between how well one dresses and how committed one is to their Christian walk.  I read somewhere that God does not look at the outside, He looks at the heart ("The Lord does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.” (1Sam. 16:7).  I also read somewhere about discouraging the "saints" from showing preference to wealthier dapper individuals over working class poor, "less dapper" individuals ".If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” (James 2:3).

That's because a white-washed tomb may be covering a rotting corpse.  But I dare say that when the inside IS clean, the outside will most likely be clean as well.

[Gary K]

On 2/20/2017 at 8:00 AM, The Wanderer said:

Please tell your horses to stop for a minute. You may need a drink of water now. I used the word "we" in my post.

Wanderer,

When you use the word "we" you include me in your attempts at making yourself holy through works.  I can truly say that I do not do that.  Even as a small child I knew instinctively that it was Jesus who gave me happiness and who was the only one who could allow me to please God.  Unfortunately the devil got me to look at people rather than to God for many years. And when I came to God as an adult I was so securely shackled by the chains of sin I knew without a doubt that I could not change me.  I have always just turned to God and said, You have to change me for I cannot.  I cannot obey you on my own.  I know that. Even before I had read the Bible's promises along these lines I did that, and as I have come across those promises such as Ezekiel 36:24-27 and Jeremiah 31:33,34 I have claimed them in my prayers.  God has rewarded my faith and He has worked miracles of regeneration in my life.  I can look back over the decades of my knowing God and see miracle after miracle that He has performed in me.  And they are ongoing miracles as He hasn't stopped working with me.  He just had a very long way to go with me when He started working with me.  I had nowhere else to go but up.  

So, if you think you can make yourself holier by dressing up, go ahead, but I will tell you it is sure to fail.  Just do not include me in your self-righteousness.  I see it as an insult to my Heavenly Father for without Him I would have no righteousness whatsoever. Everything I have said on this thread is my heart response to what I see as a lack of respect for the greatest Friend I have ever known.  My relationship with Him goes far deeper than any human relationship I have ever had.  It is like the old hymn says, What a Friend we have in Jesus, all our sins and griefs to bear. And let me tell you He bears a lot of them for me.  It is my love for Him that stirs me to say, Come on.  God is the greatest Friend you will ever know.  He has power and compassion beyond belief and He deserves the greatest respect we can possibly give Him.  

When I started dating my wife I didn't go visit her dressed like I didn't really care what she thought of me.  I made sure I was spick and span and dressed as well as the occasion demanded.  Well, God is so much greater the love of my life than my wife is that it is not funny, and I make sure when I go to His house to meet with Him that I dress as well as I can.  I am sure people will gasp and think that statement is odd, but I can tell you that as much as my wife has done for me, and as close as we are, that all of that pales in comparison to what God has done for me and what He means to me.  So when I see people disrespecting Him, mocking His church, His leadership here on earth, it really bothers me.  I take offense with someone who disrespects my wife, and just the same I take offense with someone who disrespects my Heavenly Father too.  Without Him I would not be.    

I know there are people here who will take offense at what I said just now.  But that is fine.  If they want to take offense at my testimony of what God has done for me, there is not a thing I can do about it.  And I am not going to shut up about what God has done for me. 

[Gary K]

On 2/23/2017 at 2:30 PM, JoeMo said:

Is it really lacking, or are you offended because Gregory doesn't think like you do?  Methinks it is the latter.  I highly doubt that when we bath or don't bathe is a salvational matter worth getting lathered up about (unless yu are taking a bath - then getting lathered up is a good thing.)

Actually, it is, when we are talking about it in the context of how much we respect and honor God.  If we do not place Him first and foremost in everything we do not love Him, and if we do not love Him, He will say to us, I never knew you.  If we don't love and respect Him enough to show up in our "Sunday best" when we go to church, then we don't really love and respect Him. 

[Gary K]

6 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

This is what you call a reason for that production underneath?  OK  Next please

I figured you would mock my testimony.  I am not surprised at all. 

[GayatfootofCross]

U Rook Marvelous!

And you know who you are!

 

that's what God  says