Only ONE archangel

[Gustave]

8 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Not trying to speak for Rachel; but JW's do NOT believe Christ was/is God.  Trust me; Rachel has no doubts that Christ is God.  The only thing that I (and maybe she) disagrees with you one is the nature of the pre-incarnate Christ - who was and continues to be the physical manifestation of Yahweh.

I'm aware they don't - they believe Christ, prior to the Incarnation, existed and was known throughout the multiverse as Michael the archangel.

[Gustave]

On ‎2‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 9:51 AM, JoeMo said:

Just my opinion - If it would have been "impossible" for Christ to sin, couldn't satan call "foul"?  The very fact that Christ was temped in all ways yet was without sin (Heb. 4:15) tells me that it was possible for Christ to sin.  How can something be a temptation if we are totally immune to falling for the temptation?  The fact that God sent His Son" in the likeness of sinful flesh" (Rom. 8:3) tells me that Christ could have sinned (but He didn't), or else He would have been sent in the likeness of sinless flesh.  

Christ was tested in all ways like we are, Christ remained what He was and "took on" our nature. A Doctor treating Aids victims does not need to become gay, engage in buggery and contract HIV to be able to treat someone with aids.

[JoeMo]

13 hours ago, Gustave said:

A Doctor treating Aids victims does not need to become gay, engage in buggery and contract HIV to be able to treat someone with aids.

Neither did Christ have to sin to experience the devastation that sin has brought upon humanity.  Just as the doctor takes risks treating someone with a contagious terminal disease, the Godhead took a risk sending Yeshua here to treat the contagious terminal disease of sin.

[Gustave]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

Neither did Christ have to sin to experience the devastation that sin has brought upon humanity.  Just as the doctor takes risks treating someone with a contagious terminal disease, the Godhead took a risk sending Yeshua here to treat the contagious terminal disease of sin.

The Godhead said exactly what was going to happen prior to it happening - there was NO RISK whatsoever.

Isaiah 35,4: Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you.Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert.

 

Luke 7,21: And in that same hour he cured many of their infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many that were blind he gave sight. Then Jesus answering said unto them, Go your way, and tell John what things ye have seen and heard; how that the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, to the poor the gospel is preached.

 

Luke 18,31: Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, AND all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man SHALL be accomplished. For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he SHALL rise again. And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken

Luke 24,44: And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that ALL THINGS must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures

Mark 8,30: And he began to teach them, that the Son of man MUST suffer many things, AND be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, AND be killed, AND after three days rise again.

There are over 100 of "these" to be found in the Scriptures.

It's simply not supported in the Bible that Jesus 'could have sinned & lost His salvation'. Jesus was the Lamb slain before the foundations of the earth were laid.

Consider the following

Luke 2,25: And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, BEFORE he had seen the Lord's Christ.And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law, Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared BEFORE the face of all people.

Simeon was told by the Holy Ghost he would NOT die before He saw the Lord's Christ AND what kind of a Christ would a "failed Christ" be?

Simeon, according to God, was holding SALVATION ITSELF when he held the Baby Jesus.

 

 

 

[JoeMo]

Suffice it to say that I don't believe the same way you do.

[Gustave]

3 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Suffice it to say that I don't believe the same way you do.

It's ok, my faith doesn't require that you do - I just wanted to extend a few reasons for why I believe as I do - didn't want you to think it was just old traditions of men I'd fallen for.

[8thdaypriest]

Gustave,

God "sees" the future.  OK.  Does that mean our future is FIXED, and cannot be altered?  Because God "saw" the future success of His Son, did that mean His Son COULD NOT FAIL?  Does that mean Jesus the man, could not sin? 

I can think of many prophecies made concerning various Bible characters, and various peoples, which came to pass many years later.  Do those prophecies mean those people had no chance to do anything different - that their future was LOCKED IN.  That is the doctrine of predestination.  If so, then those men did not have FREE WILL, to choose their own paths. 

You sited the many prophecies saying that the Christ would succeed in His mission.  God sees the future.  He "saw" the outcome.  But that does NOT EQUAL God manipulating the future to the extent that man no longer has FREE WILL.  Knowing how it will turn out, and making it turn out that way, are two different things. 

On the other hand - If Christ was somehow fundamentally different in nature from us, then He could NOT have been "tempted in all ways, just as we are".  His TEST was not really a TEST, if the outcome was a "sure thing". 

It seems like you're saying that Christ had some "god power" (that we don't have) which allowed Him to control His human urges and tendencies. 

I can agree with that - partly. 

I believe that Jesus was indwelt by the Spirit of His Father, from the moment of His birth. 

We are only indwelt when we open the door to His "knocking".  We must give God permission to "enter".  Jesus had already given permission to His Father, before He incarnated. 

So in that sense, He did have an advantage.  Did that make His victory a "sure thing"? 

I believe that God the Father allowed Satan to TEST His Son, to a much greater degree than any other human being will ever be tested.  This degree of testing made up for the "advantage" at the start of His life.

God turned His son over to the Evil One, who tormented Jesus with the thought that His sacrifice and horrific physical torment would be for nothing.  I believe that Jesus could not see through the blackness.  He could no longer sense His Father's presence with Him.  That is WHY He cried out "My God. Why have you forsaken me?" 

The story of Job is a wonder TYPE.  Job was accused by his "friends" of wrong.  Job was physically tormented.  But Job was not tortured - "unto death".  God did not allow Satan to kill Job. 

 

 

[Gustave]

24 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Gustave,

God "sees" the future.  OK.  Does that mean our future is FIXED, and cannot be altered?  Because God "saw" the future success of His Son, did that mean His Son COULD NOT FAIL?  Does that mean Jesus the man, could not sin? 

I can think of many prophecies made concerning various Bible characters, and various peoples, which came to pass many years later.  Do those prophecies mean those people had no chance to do anything different - that their future was LOCKED IN.  That is the doctrine of predestination.  If so, then those men did not have FREE WILL, to choose their own paths. 

You sited the many prophecies saying that the Christ would succeed in His mission.  God sees the future.  He "saw" the outcome.  But that does NOT EQUAL God manipulating the future to the extent that man no longer has FREE WILL.  Knowing how it will turn out, and making it turn out that way, are two different things. 

On the other hand - If Christ was somehow fundamentally different in nature from us, then He could NOT have been "tempted in all ways, just as we are".  His TEST was not really a TEST, if the outcome was a "sure thing". 

It seems like you're saying that Christ had some "god power" (that we don't have) which allowed Him to control His human urges and tendencies. 

I can agree with that - partly. 

I believe that Jesus was indwelt by the Spirit of His Father, from the moment of His birth. 

We are only indwelt when we open the door to His "knocking".  We must give God permission to "enter".  Jesus had already given permission to His Father, before He incarnated. 

So in that sense, He did have an advantage.  Did that make His victory a "sure thing"? 

I believe that God the Father allowed Satan to TEST His Son, to a much greater degree than any other human being will ever be tested.  This degree of testing made up for the "advantage" at the start of His life.

God turned His son over to the Evil One, who tormented Jesus with the thought that His sacrifice and horrific physical torment would be for nothing.  I believe that Jesus could not see through the blackness.  He could no longer sense His Father's presence with Him.  That is WHY He cried out "My God. Why have you forsaken me?" 

The story of Job is a wonder TYPE.  Job was accused by his "friends" of wrong.  Job was physically tormented.  But Job was not tortured - "unto death".  God did not allow Satan to kill Job. 

 

 

A Trinitarian's premise is that God can't fail, period.

'God',  spoke through the Prophets and said He wouldn't fail.

Daniel 2,44: And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: AND, the dream is CERTAIN, AND the interpretation thereof SURE.

Notice that it's "The God of Heaven" who will "set up a Kingdome" - And it's the "The God of Heaven" who made known to the King what would happen - the dream was certain and Daniel's Interpretation was SURE. Was God "really" sure? What are you saying?

God is not capable of "sin" therefore God couldn't even hypothetically "sin" -

Had Jesus sinned HE WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN THE CHRIST & Simeon ( who was promised not to die until he saw 'THE CHRIST' would still be alive today - imagine that!

Only Arian groups maintain Christ 'could have sinned & lost His Salvation' - because Arians are NOT Trinitarians.

Like I said, there are over 100 explicit Scriptures that affirm what would happen - imagine the following Scriptures  with an Arian creature Christ.

 

Isaiah 35,4: Strengthen ye the weak hands, and confirm the feeble knees. Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you if He doesn't sin and lose His salvation.

 

John 14,2: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you if I don't sin and lose my salvation.

 

John 1,51: And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man IF I don't sin and lose my salvation.

John 6,40: And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day IF I don't sin and lose my salvation

Jehovah's Witnesses are adamant that IF Jesus couldn't have sinned than it was all a big racket and farce. It's really not at all - it's just that they locked on to Jesus pre-existing as Michael the archangel AND if Lucifer fell Michael COULD HAVE ALSO.

It's not much more difficult than that.

 

 

 

[LifeHiscost]

On 2/27/2017 at 11:59 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

 

I am not a Trinitarian.  I believe in God our Father, and "the LORD Jesus Christ".  

1 Corinthians 8:6 "yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist." (NRS)

I am not SDA and I do not look to Ellen White for infallible interpretation of Scripture.  I read her as I would any other commentary.

I am wondering how you deal with Jesus' instruction to include the Holy Spirit when including Him (the Holy Spirit) in the service of being born again through baptism, as well as the revelation that He, the Holy Spirit, is the only One that if blasphemed is enough to cause total unforgiveness and our eternal death.

…18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”… Matthew 28

31Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come.…Matthew 12

God is Love!~Jesus saves!   

[Gustave]

21 hours ago, LifeHiscost said:

To 8thdaypriest:

I am wondering how you deal with Jesus' instruction to include the Holy Spirit when including Him (the Holy Spirit) in the service of being born again through baptism, as well as the revelation that He, the Holy Spirit, is the only One that if blasphemed is enough to cause total unforgiveness and our eternal death.

This is all 'Old Hat' - Nicea ( The Church ) sorted all this out prior to A.D. 400.

Christ was eternally the Lamb with ZERO chance of 'screwing up'.

1 Peter 1,20: But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily WAS FOREORDAINED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, but was manifest in these last times for you

Verily = truly, certainly, surely, indeed.

Foreordained = to foreknow, predestinate.

Man didn't secure salvation for humanity - it was God who did - & God doesn't screw up like archangels can screw up.

 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

On 3/2/2017 at 9:46 PM, LifeHiscost said:

I am wondering how you deal with Jesus' instruction to include the Holy Spirit when including Him (the Holy Spirit) in the service of being born again through baptism, as well as the revelation that He, the Holy Spirit, is the only One that if blasphemed is enough to cause total unforgiveness and our eternal death.

…18Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”… Matthew 28

31Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come.…Matthew 12

God is Love!~Jesus saves!   

There are other threads where your questions have been answered - several times over. 

[8thdaypriest]

We must agree to disagree. 

[Gustave]

8thday,

You do realize that Arius and his adherents were promulgating that while Christ didn't sin He could have and had he - would have lost his salvation, you realize this, right?

 

[8thdaypriest]

51 minutes ago, Gustave said:

8thday,

You do realize that Arius and his adherents were promulgating that while Christ didn't sin He could have and had he - would have lost his salvation, you realize this, right?

 

Jesus could not "loose his salvation".  He was never "saved".  He could not "loose" what He never had.  

 

[8thdaypriest]

Let me see if I can put this a different way.

God cannot be tempted. 

James 1:13 God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one. (NRS)  

QUESTION:  If Jesus was tempted to sin (to do that which was against the will of God), does that mean that He was not God?

QUESTION:  What does it mean to be tempted? 

James 1:14 But one is tempted by one's own desire, being lured and enticed by it; (NRS)

QUESTION:  Did Jesus have human desires?  Answer:  Yes!

His desire was to escape the torture of crucifixion.  But this death was the will of God His Father. To refuse would have been sin.  Therefore Christ submitted His own will to that of His Father.

Matthew 26:39 "And going a little farther, he threw himself on the ground and prayed, 'My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet not what I want but what you want.'" (NRS)

NOTE:  Shows two separate wills.

Hebrews 5:7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to the one who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission. (NRS)

Hebrews 2:18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted. (NKJ)

JESUS TESTED

Jesus WAS "tempted".    NOTE:  The Greek word translated TEST, is also translated TEMPT.  To be TEMPTED is to be TESTED.

Did Jesus WANT bread after fasting 40 days in the desert?  Of course!   And the Devil tempted Him to command that the stones be turned into bread for himself.  This in order to prove that He was indeed the Son of God.

Luke 4:2 where for forty days he was tempted by the devil. He ate nothing at all during those days, and when they were over, he was famished. (NRS)

Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who in every respect has been tested as we are, yet without sin. (NRS)

Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. (NRS)

Mark 1:13 He was in the wilderness forty days, tempted by Satan. (NRS)

 

Gustave, you often quote verses pointing to Jesus "divinity", but you seem to ignore those verses which point to His humanity.  

In the Book of Matthew alone, Jesus refers to himself as "the Son of Man".   I would argue that His humanity was tempted, just as we are all tempted by our human desires. 

The question would be, Did His own divinity overpower His humanity - thus making it IMPOSSIBLE for Him to sin? 

I would argue, NO.  God has never overpowered human will.  If Jesus were to use a power that is not available to us - as humans - then He would fail the TEST.  This is what Satan was TEMPTING Him to do.  Jesus had to overcome AS A MAN, to win back the dominion of earth - for mankind. 

Jesus gave all the credit to His Father, who He said, "dwells in Me". 

Is this same power available to us?  Yes!

1 John 3:9  Those who have been born of God do not sin, because God's seed [Christ] abides in them; they cannot sin, because they have been born of God. (NRS)

This verse is speaking of human beings. 

1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it. (NKJ)

[8thdaypriest]

In order to be TEMPTED, one must have the desire for something which is not right or is not the will of God.

IF one has NO DESIRE for the action, then it's not really a TEMPTATION. 

And I have NEVER felt the desire for sex with another woman.  That is not my inclination.  For me that would not be a TEMPTATION. 

I dislike the taste of pork.  And the one time I ate it, years ago, I got really sick.  (Ham sandwich was the only kind available on a flight from Canada to San Francisco.)  So tempting me to eat bacon, would not really BE a temptation, because I have no DESIRE to eat it. 

I have no desire for Fentanyl (EVER!!)  It makes me vomit for several hours. 

I can think of several more. 

Jesus Christ was TEMPTED with those things that were specific to Him.  He was TEMPTED to prove who He was - to Satan.  He was TEMPTED to bypass all the suffering, to get rulership of the world.  Satan offered Him "all the kingdoms of the world".  He was TEMPTED to use His own authority (as God's Son and commander of Angels) to help himself, instead of living as a man must live, dependent upon God.

Christ's temptations were MORE than are "common to man".

[8thdaypriest]

2 hours ago, Gustave said:

8thday,

You do realize that Arius and his adherents were promulgating that while Christ didn't sin He could have and had he - would have lost his salvation, you realize this, right?

 

The whole human race was LOST.  Satan had taken over dominion of earth.  The entire human race was on a path to DEATH, and the whole earth with them.  Christ incarnated as the "last Adam".  He was completely without sin - like Adam.  He was the reset button.  He could set the human race on a new path - to life.  In order to do that, He had to overcome the TESTS of Satan.  The first Adam was TESTED, and the "last Adam" was TESTED.  The first Adam failed the TEST.  The "last Adam" passed the TESTS.

And it's NOT A TEST, unless the object of that TEST has a desire for the item offered in the TESTING. 

Eve was offered God likeness.  She desired that.  (Yes - it was a lie.  But she didn't know that.  She was deceived.) 

Satan lied to Christ too.  He wasn't going to give the kingdoms of the world to Christ. 

Arius simply said that the Son of God had a beginning - because He was "begotten".  I mean - why call Him a "son" if He was not "begotten"- if He had always existed?  If Christ had always existed then God did NOT "give His only begotten son".  Granted, that beginning was back in eternity, before anything was created - but it was still a beginning.

[8thdaypriest]

God our Father - the "only true God - the "one God" - risked His only begotten Son in an attempt to save some of His creation.  If the attempt failed, God would once again be ALONE.  

That is how much our God loves us.

If the attempt failed, Christ would die without hope of resurrection.

That is how much Jesus loves us. 

It is beyond comprehension!!!

Because God "saw" the future victory of His Son, does NOT mean His Son could not fail during His earthly testing.

I'm sure the Father told Jesus, "You will get through this."  "You will succeed."  The assurance of God, helped Jesus to go forward to the cross.   Does that mean Jesus relaxed, knowing it was a "sure thing"?  Not likely.  He believed His Father, but the PAIN would still be VERY REAL.  

Abraham believed the promise of God concerning Isaac.  Does that mean He did not hesitate and agonize over killing Isaac?  Of course he did!  And he could have refused. 

[8thdaypriest]

In the Book of Matthew alone, Jesus refers to himself as "the Son of Man" 28 times.  I left out the 28 times in my previous post.  

[Gustave]

8thday,

Thanks for the detailed response - now we're getting somewhere.

James 1:13: Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

It looks like we're in agreement here - God CAN'T be tempted with evil - Because God doesn't "lust" or "desire" evil.

It also looks like this is where we part company on agreement however & here is why.

1st,

Scripture doesn't say or even imply that Jesus yearned for sin - it clarifies in what way Jesus was tempted.

Matthew 4,1: Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted OF the devil.

Luke 4,1: And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness, Being forty days tempted OF the devil.

John 14,29:  And now I have told you BEFORE it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe. Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, AND HATH NOTHING IN ME. But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

 

That's explicit, Jesus told His Disciples PRIOR to His being tempted "OF the Devil" that Satan had "nothing in Him" so they shouldn't worry - Jesus tells them PRIOR to being tempted "OF the Devil" so that after the test the Disciples might believe Jesus hasn't just been pulling their leg.

As you correctly pointed out in the Scripture from James - a man is ONLY tempted when he is drawn away "by his own lust" for a thing.

Let's say hypothetically you are a straight man who's always been attracted to a certain woman you work with AND this woman asks you to have sex with her after the two of you attended a company party. You feel the pull of this temptation because YOU are sexually attracted to HER & already "DESIRE" what she's offering you. It can be said that the woman tempted you AND you were tempted to go through with it.

Now, another equally valid hypothetical would be you attend your company party and instead of the woman you're attracted to propositioning you for sex it's the gay guy who works in accounting. The idea of this "activity" does not appeal to you in the least but that doesn't change THE FACT that you were tempted "BY" or "OF" the gay accountant so while it can be said YOU were tempted by the gay guy YOU WERE NOT TEMPTED TO GO THROUGH WITH IT because you didn't already yearn or desire for same sex buggery.

This is exactly how Scripture clarifies the context of Jesus' temptation "OF" or "BY" the Devil.

1) God allowed the temptation of Christ "BY" or "OF" Satan not to see if Christ would pass the test but to PROVE Jesus was the Christ for the benefit of anyone who wondered.

2) The text even says "THE SPIRIT" led Jesus into the wilderness "to be tempted 'OF the devil'.

3) Jesus knew the outcome of this test before the world was created & told His followers what would happen prior to it happening.

What was it that you were taught that established "the need" that Jesus was "on trial" and that there was some kind of cosmic court by which 'God' had to provide justification?

 

 

 

 

[Gustave]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

God our Father - the "only true God - the "one God" - risked His only begotten Son in an attempt to save some of His creation.  If the attempt failed, God would once again be ALONE.  

That is how much our God loves us.

If the attempt failed, Christ would die without hope of resurrection.

That is how much Jesus loves us. 

It is beyond comprehension!!!

Because God "saw" the future victory of His Son, does NOT mean His Son could not fail during His earthly testing.

I'm sure the Father told Jesus, "You will get through this."  "You will succeed."  The assurance of God, helped Jesus to go forward to the cross.   Does that mean Jesus relaxed, knowing it was a "sure thing"?  Not likely.  He believed His Father, but the PAIN would still be VERY REAL.  

Abraham believed the promise of God concerning Isaac.  Does that mean He did not hesitate and agonize over killing Isaac?  Of course he did!  And he could have refused. 

I'm sorry, what you're saying is Arianism.

There was no "earthly testing" - only:

1 John 3,8: Everyone who commits sin is a child of the devil; for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Son of God was revealed for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

&

1 Peter 1,19: But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

 

Jesus was eternally "The Christ".

 

 

[LifeHiscost]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

  The "last Adam" passed the TESTS.And it's NOT A TEST, unless the object of that TEST has a desire for the item offered in the TESTING. 

Not sure this is clearly seen. Jesus was tempted and received the penalty, but not as the Son of God. As He took death in our place, the death which we deserved as children of men, we then as Sons/daughters of God receive eternal life as only He deserves.

9Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, 10or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. 11Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.....1 Cor 6

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

 

[JoeMo]

5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

He was TEMPTED to use His own authority (as God's Son and commander of Angels) to help himself, instead of living as a man must live, dependent upon God.

To me, this is likely the biggest temptation that faced Christ - to use His Godly power without "checking in" with the Father first.  We as humans don't face that particular temptation because we do not have Godlike (i.e., infinite supernatural) powers - yet.

[debbym]

On 2/25/2017 at 11:40 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

The word "archangel" (meaning - chief of angels) is found in only two verses.

Jude 1:9 "Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" (NKJ)

1 Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel's call and with the sound of God's trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first." (NRS)

[Some translations say "an" archangel's call, but the word "an" or "the" is an added word.]

Upon hearing "archangel's call" the dead rise.  John 5:25 says "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God".  Put these two verses together.

John 5:25 "Very truly, I tell you, the hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live." (NRS)

The Son of God IS the chief of angels.  He will call forth the dead.  The name of God's son IS Michael, which means "like unto God".  The name seems appropriate, considering that He was begotten in the express image of God His Father.....

    Genesis 22:1-18  “But the Angel of the LORD called to him from heaven and said, ‘Abraham, Abraham!’ And he said, ‘Here I am.’ And He said, ‘Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son your only son, from Me.’”

        The Angel of the LORD speaks as Yehovah, saying, “You have not withheld your son . . . from Me.” 

There is only ONE Archangel.  He is the Father's "chief messenger".  He is Michael the Son of God. 

 

 

I have believed just as all you have written for many decades.  As God Christ commands all the hosts of heaven.  

He is in charge or is the head of all of them. from Psalm 103: 20,21 
 

Bless the Lord, O you his angels,
    you mighty ones who do his word,
    obeying the voice of his word!
²¹ Bless the Lord, all his hosts,
    his ministers, who do his will!

[Gustave]

debbym,

Do you believe that Ellen White was in error when she affirmed that Lucifer was an archangel & that there were also other multiple archangels besides Lucifer & Michael?

 

The belief that Michael the archangel was pre-Incarnate Christ reminds me of the t.v. series "Supernatural" - where the Winchester brothers work with peccable archangels, even Michael who becomes "the Christ".