Only ONE archangel

[Gustave]

9 hours ago, jackson said:

Regarding the temptation of Christ:

 

Heb 2:18   For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

 

If one can suffer by the nature of being tempted, I think it fair to say that  there was something in him that could be tempted. If it were impossible for Jesus to sin, then He could not have been tempted; or more to the point, he would not have been said to suffer being tempted. Also, if He could not sin, then he could not feel the pull of temptation ; and, therefore, not be able to succour  others who we know can sin when tempted.

 

Heb  4:15   For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.

 

Can a man who cannot be influenced by temptation be touched with the feelings of those who can be influenced by temptation?

 

Psm 8:5        For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death

 

Jesus did not come in the nature of even  angels , nor of Adam before the fall, but in the seed of Abraham (sinful flesh). If the nature of angels was such that they could and some did sin, and the nature of Adam before the fall was such that he could and did sin; what makes one believe Christ, in the likeness of Abraham, could not be tempted to sin?

In all ways SEPARATE from sin.

Strong's G5565, look it up.

Jesus knew exactly what it was like to be sick, tired, hungry & to know pain & suffering the same as we do - He was in all ways like us APART or SEPARATE from "sin".

This is the standard apologetic text Jehovah's Witnesses use as well - and they always leave out the "apart from sin" meaning.

Scripture is clear that "GOD" became man without ceasing to be "GOD".

And while Jesus had TWO NATURES the human nature was PERFECTLY united to the Devine Nature - Exactly as Scriptures in the Old Testament said it would be.

 

Matthew 12,25: And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; AND every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

Gustave

To your repeated slur "just like Jehovah's Witnesses" I would reply - SO WHAT!  I do not believe something because another denomination either believes or disbelieves something.  I hold some beliefs also held by Catholics, and Baptists, and JWs, and Mormons, and SDAs, etc. etc. etc.  STOP with your attempted dismissal, based upon beliefs held by JWs. 

If I hold a belief, it is because I have studied it out for myself - from the Scriptures.

I do not belong to any "denomination".  I hold some many beliefs in common with other denominations (including SDA), but I also hold some beliefs unique to my own understanding. 

[8thdaypriest]

3 hours ago, Gustave said:

Matthew 12,25: And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; AND every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

Jesus "knew their thoughts" either in the sense that someone good at "reading people" can "know" them, OR God His Father gave Him to that knowledge. 

Your interpretation of the verse does NOT prove what you are contending. 

Jesus "emptied Himself" of divine powers when He was made to be "a little lower than the angels".  He must pass every TEST as a man.  In order to recover possession of "the land", He had to fulfill the requirements of the covenant - AS the "Seed of Abraham".

Here at CA we debate many things, because those things are not crystal clear in the Bible.  We share our collected verses and state our positions.  We look for the weight of evidence (although SDAs put more weight on the side of things that EGW endorsed).  Often we just have to agree to disagree.  I think we've about reached that point in this discussion.

[Gustave]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Jesus "emptied Himself" of divine powers when He was made to be "a little lower than the angels".  He must pass every TEST as a man.  In order to recover possession of "the land", He had to fulfill the requirements of the covenant - AS the "Seed of Abraham".

I answer:

Matthew 4,1: Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.  And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

 

Matthew 9,5: But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

 

John 10,17: Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, AND I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

 

John 11,11: These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

 

I can appreciate the need for adherents of Arianism to advocate for a decaffeinated creature Christ who was "on probation" and might not have made it - it's simply an alien concept in Scripture and runs the direct opposite of over 100 texts that are explicit in saying God would win, period.

 

But I can understand why you would not want to talk much more about this.

 

[8thdaypriest]

19 hours ago, Gustave said:

I answer:

Matthew 4,1: Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.  And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Rachel answers in green:

The word translated as "power" means AUTHORITY.  It is so translated in many versions.  Jesus had AUTHORITY - because of WHO He was.  He had received that authority from His Father.  

Matthew 28:18  And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. (Mat 28:18 NRS)  IF it was given to Him, then He did not have it naturally. He wasn't born with it. 

 

Matthew 9,5: But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
John 10,17: Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, AND I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Once again:  "power" = "authority" - which was GIVEN to Jesus by His Father.   The previous verse you site confirms "This commandment have I received of my Father."  Something you RECEIVE is not something you were born with - as part of your nature.  I quoted several verses which say that God the Father resurrected His Son.  Jesus did NOT come forth from the grave by His own divine "power".  He came forth by the "power" of His Father, which was GIVEN to Him.

 

John 11,11: These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Jesus said plainly, "The FATHER who dwells in me does the works"  (John 14:10).  Whether working a miracle, or teaching, or coming out of the grave - God the FATHER empowered and authorized those actions.

 

I can appreciate the need for adherents of Arianism to advocate for a decaffeinated creature Christ who was "on probation" and might not have made it - it's simply an alien concept in Scripture and runs the direct opposite of over 100 texts that are explicit in saying God would win, period.

In your opinion Gustave.  You believe that "God" is one being who manifests in three ways - as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.  So - of course - your interpretation of the passages you quote, fits with your understanding.  

SDAs believe that God is three equal "persons" who have all three always existed. 

I believe that "God" is the FATHER, and HE beget a  "son" in His exact image and likeness, back in eternity before they created anything.   So my belief is different from both you and SDAs.

 

But I can understand why you would not want to talk much more about this.

I feel that we are repeating and repeating and repeating the same verses, which we interpret in different ways. 

If I think of other verses which speak to this debate, I will post again.

Blessings, Rachel

 

 

[Gustave]

35 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

In your opinion Gustave.  You believe that "God" is one being who manifests in three ways - as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.  So - of course - your interpretation of the passages you quote, fits with your understanding.  

SDAs believe that God is three equal "persons" who have all three always existed. 

I believe that "God" is the FATHER, and HE beget a  "son" in His exact image and likeness, back in eternity before they created anything.   So my belief is different from both you and SDAs.

 

36 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

 

Incorrect,

I believe in 3 distinct Persons that equally share ONE Substance. What makes The Father 'God' is exactly what makes The Son & The Holy Spirit God.

Given that 'God' is absolutely eternal I reject any hypothetical situation where 'God' could cease to exist - such as Arius and Ellen White affirmed.

Ellen took it a step further - claiming that IF Michael had sinned 'God' would have had to forfeit the earth to Lucifer - God would have then went off into some dark corner of the multiverse to eternally sulk being defeated by Lucifer.

I reject such nonsense & base my belief off a metric ton of Scripture that says Christ was 100% going to succeed with absolutely ZERO chance of failure.

 

 

[LifeHiscost]

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

 

I'm sure the gospel of Jesus Christ cannot be flawlessly understood when defined by any sinful human being, as if we were able to speak without flaw. OTOH Jesus stood without flaw and when He spoke it was in perfect concert with the third person of the Deity, leaving no room for mistake.

…17The reason the Father loves Me is that I lay down My life in order to take it up again. 18No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from My Father.” ....John 10

8Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake......John 14

…12I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it. 13However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come.....John 16

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[8thdaypriest]

On 3/6/2017 at 11:57 AM, Gustave said:

 

Incorrect,

I believe in 3 distinct Persons that equally share ONE Substance. What makes The Father 'God' is exactly what makes The Son & The Holy Spirit God.

Given that 'God' is absolutely eternal I reject any hypothetical situation where 'God' could cease to exist - such as Arius and Ellen White affirmed.

Ellen took it a step further - claiming that IF Michael had sinned 'God' would have had to forfeit the earth to Lucifer - God would have then went off into some dark corner of the multiverse to eternally sulk being defeated by Lucifer.

I reject such nonsense & base my belief off a metric ton of Scripture that says Christ was 100% going to succeed with absolutely ZERO chance of failure.

 

 

Yes - Satan would retain dominion of this earth.  But it would do him no good.  The earth is dying and Satan has no power to bring it back to life.  Satan - if he retained dominion of earth - would be left with a DEAD PLANET. 

Not much of a victory.

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Satan - if he retained dominion of earth - would be left with a DEAD PLANET. 

Instead, satan will be dead and we will be left with a revitalized, totally and eternally ALIVE planet!

[Belle]

Very interesting and lively topic and discussion; and I loved realizing "the archangel's call," is Jesus raising the dead. My heart thrilled within me. I believe Michael is Jesus, especially with the verse of him standing up right before the time of trouble. I think it sometimes takes a long time for God to fight against Lucifer because God does not force people to do what he wants them to do. He influences them and so does Lucifer.

I love how Ellicot's Commentary for English Readers explains the verse Daniel 10:13.  "Perhaps no single verse in the whole of the Scriptures speaks more clearly than this upon the invisible powers which rule and influence nations. If we were without a revelation, we should have thought it congruent that God Himself should direct all events in the world without using any intervening means. But revelation points out that as spiritual beings carry out God’s purpose in the natural world (Exodus 12:23; 2Samuel 24:16) and in the moral world (Luke 15:10), so also they do in the political world. From this chapter we not only learn that Israel had a spiritual champion (Daniel 10:21) to protect her in her national life, and to watch over her interests, but also that the powers opposed to Israel had their princes, or saviours, which were antagonists of those which watched over Israel. The “princes” of the heathen powers are devils, according to 1Corinthians 10:20. The doctrine of the ministry of angels is taught in Psalm 34:7; Psalm 91:11; Psalm 96:5 (LXX.); Isaiah 24:21; Isaiah 46:2; Jeremiah 46:25; Jeremiah 49:3. Further passages in the New Testament bearing upon the question are 1Corinthians 8:5; Colossians 1:16."

"The verse implies that the spiritual powers attached to Persia were influencing Cyrus in a manner that was prejudicial to the interests of God’s people. It must be borne in mind that the vision occurred at the time of the Samaritan intrigues with the Persian Court in opposition to Zerubbabel. "

"There had been a conflict between the powers of light and darkness, in which the former had gained the victory, which had been decisive. By the kings of Persia are meant all the successors of Cyrus. It may be remarked that from this time onward the Persian kings were, upon the whole, favourable to the interests of Israel."

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/daniel/10-13.htm

[phkrause]

On 3/6/2017 at 0:57 PM, Gustave said:

 

Incorrect,

I believe in 3 distinct Persons that equally share ONE Substance. What makes The Father 'God' is exactly what makes The Son & The Holy Spirit God.

Given that 'God' is absolutely eternal I reject any hypothetical situation where 'God' could cease to exist - such as Arius and Ellen White affirmed.

Ellen took it a step further - claiming that IF Michael had sinned 'God' would have had to forfeit the earth to Lucifer - God would have then went off into some dark corner of the multiverse to eternally sulk being defeated by Lucifer.

I reject such nonsense & base my belief off a metric ton of Scripture that says Christ was 100% going to succeed with absolutely ZERO chance of failure.

Could you give a few texts that say that there is "absolutely Zero chance of failure?"

[Gustave]

17 minutes ago, phkrause said:

Could you give a few texts that say that there is "absolutely Zero chance of failure?"

I'd be honored to.

 

Isaiah 14,24
The LORD Almighty has sworn, “Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, AND as I have purposed, so it will happen
 

Ephesians 1,9
he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he PURPOSED in Christ
 

2 Timothy 1,8
Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the GOSPEL according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, WHICH WAS GIVEN US in Christ Jesus BEFORE the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

 

Zeph 3,5
The just LORD is in the midst thereof; he will NOT do iniquity: every morning doth he bring his judgment to light, he faileth not; but the unjust knoweth no shame
 

 

 

Vs.

Signs of the Time April 2, 1940
It is VITAL for every Christian to know that Jesus Christ MIGHT have sinned. The Master was not beyond the clutches of temptation. The Heaven-sent Gift could have been eternally lost and the doom of humanity would have been eternally sealed. Jesus Christ knew the pull of evil. "In that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted."

 

 

[Gustave]

On ‎3‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 6:10 PM, phkrause said:

Could you give a few texts that say that there is "absolutely Zero chance of failure?"

That was only 4 Scriptures that say it, there are around 100 equally explicit texts which say the same thing.

[JoeMo]

God, angels, and humans all share one characteristic - they all have a free will.  In my opinion, any being with a free will "could" sin.  Jesus was not a robot - He "could" sin.  He did not; as is proven by His resurrection.  Just because God "knew" Jesus would succeed does not mean He "forced" Jesus to succeed.

[phkrause]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

God, angels, and humans all share one characteristic - they all have a free will.  In my opinion, any being with a free will "could" sin.  Jesus was not a robot - He "could" sin.  He did not; as is proven by His resurrection.  Just because God "knew" Jesus would succeed does not mean He "forced" Jesus to succeed.

Exactly JoeMo!

[phkrause]

On 3/7/2017 at 9:36 PM, Gustave said:

Signs of the Time April 2, 1940
It is VITAL for every Christian to know that Jesus Christ MIGHT have sinned. The Master was not beyond the clutches of temptation. The Heaven-sent Gift could have been eternally lost and the doom of humanity would have been eternally sealed. Jesus Christ knew the pull of evil. "In that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted."

Praise the Lord that evil was defeated!!

[Gustave]

5 hours ago, phkrause said:

Praise the Lord that evil was defeated!!

Think about your statement a minute.

 

"Praise the Lord that evil was defeated [ instead of God being defeated - because that was a real possibility ]?

I'm not following.

What did you think of the 4 Scriptures I posted earlier.

[phkrause]

1 hour ago, Gustave said:

Think about your statement a minute.

 

"Praise the Lord that evil was defeated [ instead of God being defeated - because that was a real possibility ]?

I'm not following.

What did you think of the 4 Scriptures I posted earlier.

There's nothing to think about!! Evil was defeated when Jesus was crucified!! Besides God can never be defeated that was never a possibility!!!!!

[Gustave]

14 hours ago, phkrause said:

There's nothing to think about!! Evil was defeated when Jesus was crucified!! Besides God can never be defeated that was never a possibility!!!!!

What you said defaults into:   'Praise the Lord that Satan didn't defeat the Lord'.

OR,

Thank God that God didn't lose.

 

This is like saying:

'Praise the Lord Jesus didn't sink & drown when he walked on water'.

'Praise the Lord that Jesus wasn't the product of Mary being raped by a Roman Senator'.

'Praise the Lord that Jesus didn't rot in the tomb'.

 

This is pure Arianism.

 

The Scriptures I provided precluded Christ from failure.

 

[JoeMo]

17 hours ago, phkrause said:

There's nothing to think about!! Evil was defeated when Jesus was crucified!! Besides God can never be defeated that was never a possibility!!!!!

While I agree that God can never be defeated, humanity could have been defeated.  If, in our corporate free will, we corporately "chose" to totally reject God and His way of governing.  Humanity could have been abandoned to satan and utterly destroyed.  At the individual level (or sovereign nation level), people can still be defeated by evil if they choose to disbelieve the promises of God and remove themselves from His protective hedge.    We witness this every day in our world.  God is not defeated; but a member of His family is lost.

[Gustave]

8 hours ago, JoeMo said:

While I agree that God can never be defeated, humanity could have been defeated.  If, in our corporate free will, we corporately "chose" to totally reject God and His way of governing.  Humanity could have been abandoned to satan and utterly destroyed.  At the individual level (or sovereign nation level), people can still be defeated by evil if they choose to disbelieve the promises of God and remove themselves from His protective hedge.    We witness this every day in our world.  God is not defeated; but a member of His family is lost.

Answer me this then if you would be so kind.

 

What percentage chance do you estimate that the Messiah:

- would have been born by a married woman who had already borne children?

- would have been born in Greece?

- would have had his ribs, legs and shoulders broken at the crucifixion? 

Seriously, what percentage chance do you estimate that any of the above could have happened to Christ ? 

[phkrause]

10 hours ago, JoeMo said:

While I agree that God can never be defeated, humanity could have been defeated.

I agree with you!!

[Gustave]

On ‎3‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 7:21 AM, JoeMo said:

God, angels, and humans all share one characteristic - they all have a free will.  In my opinion, any being with a free will "could" sin.  Jesus was not a robot - He "could" sin.  He did not; as is proven by His resurrection.  Just because God "knew" Jesus would succeed does not mean He "forced" Jesus to succeed.

JoeMo,

Answer me this then - if you would be so kind.

 

What percentage chance do you estimate that the Messiah:

- would have been born by a married woman who had already borne children?

- would have been born in Greece?

- would have had his ribs, legs and shoulders broken at the crucifixion? 

Seriously, what percentage chance do you estimate that any of the above could have happened to Christ ? 

[JoeMo]

21 hours ago, Gustave said:

Answer me this then if you would be so kind.

 

What percentage chance do you estimate that the Messiah:

- would have been born by a married woman who had already borne children?

- would have been born in Greece?

- would have had his ribs, legs and shoulders broken at the crucifixion? 

Seriously, what percentage chance do you estimate that any of the above could have happened to Christ ? 

In summary, 0% chance of any of the above.  I hope this isn't a trick question.

[Gustave]

5 hours ago, JoeMo said:

In summary, 0% chance of any of the above.  I hope this isn't a trick question.

Not a trick question at all.

Why, in your view, would there be a 0% chance of any of the hypotheticals I gave?