Abomination of Desolation: Only One or More?

[Samie]

If Christ is to be believed, there is only one, I guess. 

But there are SDA preachers who choose to believe otherwise.  When I was once in their shoes, my only reason was: it was what I was taught.  Until I simply believed in what Christ said:

          KJV Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place

For me, "the" is definite.  There is only one, and no other else beside.  But, it had long been taught that the above verse already found fulfillment in 70 AD.  Hence, if there is another fulfillment yet to occur before Christ comes, then "the abomination of desolation" becomes "an abomination of desolation".  Is "an abomination of desolation" a translation faithful to the Greek text?

^BGT Matthew 24:15 {Otan ou=n i;dhte to. bde,lugma th/j evrhmw,sewj to. r`hqe.n dia. Danih.l tou/ profh,tou e`sto.j evn to,pw| a`gi,w|( o` avnaginw,skwn noei,tw

[Dave Watchman]

2 hours ago, Samie said:

If Christ is to be believed, there is only one, I guess. 

But there are SDA preachers who choose to believe otherwise.  When I was once in their shoes, my only reason was: it was what I was taught.  Until I simply believed in what Christ said:

          KJV Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place

For me, "the" is definite.  There is only one, and no other else beside.  But, it had long been taught that the above verse already found fulfillment in 70 AD.  Hence, if there is another fulfillment yet to occur before Christ comes, then "the abomination of desolation" becomes "an abomination of desolation". 

What you write sounds right to me.

2 hours ago, Samie said:

Is "an abomination of desolation" a translation faithful to the Greek text?

^BGT Matthew 24:15 {Otan ou=n i;dhte to. bde,lugma th/j evrhmw,sewj to. r`hqe.n dia. Danih.l tou/ profh,tou e`sto.j evn to,pw| a`gi,w|( o` avnaginw,skwn noei,tw

Do you know what the correct answer is?

Are you trying to lure us into a trap?

For me, "the" abomination of desolation is also definite. It's baked in the cake. It's the one that can be measured by 1290 days until the end of these wonders when the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give it's light.. And leaves no room to wiggle out from.

I wrote a long reply to your note in the other thread Samie. But then I lost the draft and decided to give it a rest for awhile. It's tough to tell. Just look at that bottom half of Luke 17. Look at all the specifics that take place before we are told to run for it:

• the days of Noah,
• eating and drinking
• marrying and being given in marriage,
• the days of Lot
• eating and drinking,
• buying and selling,
• planting and building, but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom,
• fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all
• so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

"On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back.

But Luke 17 isn't worried about pregnant women or the ones nursing infants in those days! How come? Matthew might have used old people, invalids, the morbidly obese or those confined to a hospital. From the time of conception until the child's first word is spoken and then his first steps are taken, reliable time frames have been established.

"For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

"Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

A short: "time".

Time, times and half a time? Where a "time" equals a year?

I found additional confirmation, a guy from Ohio figured out almost the same thing. And this "time" appears to have been marked out by the Revelation 12 sign. This thing that Jesus is calling "great tribulation", I think is going to be extremely fast, about a year in duration. I think that it's already being shortened from the front end. It was probably meant to be the last "third", 420 days, of the 1260 day span. But it's being cut short by seven "sevens" or 49 days. And that will leave us with a 371 day great tribulation which will be just EXACTLY like it was in the days of Noah. The five months of Revelation 9 should take us right up to the "last day".

"For the LORD has a day of vengeance,

a YEAR of recompense for the cause of Zion.

"Great changes are soon to take place in our world, and the final movements will be rapid ones. - EGW.

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[Samie]

On 04/03/2017 at 10:42 AM, Dave Watchman said:

And that will leave us with a 371 day great tribulation which will be just EXACTLY like it was in the days of Noah. The five months of Revelation 9 should take us right up to the "last day".

Me thinks the great tribulation would be shortened to 45 days - the time span between 1290 and 1335 days:

Daniel 12:11-12   11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.  12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Matthew 24:21-22   21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.  22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

[Dave Watchman]

3 hours ago, Samie said:

Daniel 12:11-12   11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.  12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Matthew 24:21-22   21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.  22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

3 hours ago, Samie said:

Me thinks the great tribulation would be shortened to 45 days - the time span between 1290 and 1335 days:

 

That would be a fast great tribulation. I like the idea of it, It's a good idea. All the guys stocking up for seven years sure would feel funny. I think that I thought of it before, it sounds logical. I used to think there could be a 45 day and a 75 day spot, depending on where the 1260 and 1290 days ran out within the larger 1335 day span. I can probably still find a note written about the 45 day great tribulation by a woman on Joel's trumpet. And we could very well be into the 42 months of Revelation 13. The man of sin may have already taken his seat, his authority might have already began. But he has to come out from behind the scenes five months before the end of these wonders. The five months that take place after the abyss is unlocked won't fit into the 45 days.

I saved your schematic so that I could make it full size for easy viewing. I think that I might lean more towards the standard SDA view of the prophetic time periods than you do. But I seem to agree that our appointed time of the end all takes place within the 1335 day period. It looks to me like there is a slot that was made during the foundation of the universe in the solar and lunar cycle for the 1335 span to snap right into.

Since before the tetrads began in 2014, I've been counting the days in between the sets of solar and lunar eclipses. And anything else that I can find. And I've found a couple of things. But I don't really know what's going on so I can't really say for sure. But I think something is going on. When Jesus said:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light,

I think that He's talking about a specific solar and lunar eclipse and I think that I know where they are. So when I count backwards from this "darkened" sun for 1290 days, I find the thing that I think is the final transgression of desolation. When I count backwards from this "darkened" sun for 777 days, I find the day that Jupiter has entered into the body of Virgo to begin the Revelation 12 sign. Then when I count backwards from the "darkened" sun for 420 days, a "third" of 1260, I find the day that Jupiter has exited the body of Virgo and is then joined in a conjunction with Venus.

As your schematic shows how I previously read Daniel 12:11, I now read it in a different way. It now looks like both the "daily" is taken away AND the AofD is set up on the same day. 1290 days latter comes the "end of these wonders" when the sun is "darkened" and the moon will not give her light. Because Daniel 12:11 seems still to be an additional answer to the previous question asked by "someone":  “How long shall it be till the End of these Wonders?” It looks like Jesus is just offering us a head start indicator that the "daily" will be taken away and the AofD set up 1290 days before the end of these wonders which is the same thing as: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days.

DS/AofD<-------1290Days------->EofW

DS/AofD<-------1290Days------->Sun/Moon

Jesus said that this would be the worst time ever, from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. Wouldn't that mean that it couldn't last any longer than the duration of the flood. Or else no flesh would be saved alive. I Googled the days of Noah and found many of the scholars claiming 371 days. I bet that they're right. Because that 420 day slot that I found marked out by the conjunction, just has to be cut short by seven weeks, seven "sevens", or 49 days and that gets us the 371 days which butts right up to the "darkened" sun. Just like in the days of Noah.

Didn't Noah know seven days before the flood came when the door was sealed shut? If any of this is right, I would imagine that we might get a heads up soon.

"Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing his plan to his servants the prophets.

<----1260---->
<-----1290-----> 0.976744186046512
<------1335------> 0.966292134831461
<-------1372-------> 0.973032069970845

[TrevorL]

Greetings Samie,

On 04/03/2017 at 11:02 AM, Samie said:

If Christ is to be believed, there is only one, I guess. 

But there are SDA preachers who choose to believe otherwise.  When I was once in their shoes, my only reason was: it was what I was taught.  Until I simply believed in what Christ said:

          KJV Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place

For me, "the" is definite.  There is only one, and no other else beside.  But, it had long been taught that the above verse already found fulfillment in 70 AD.  Hence, if there is another fulfillment yet to occur before Christ comes, then "the abomination of desolation" becomes "an abomination of desolation".  Is "an abomination of desolation" a translation faithful to the Greek text?

^BGT Matthew 24:15 {Otan ou=n i;dhte to. bde,lugma th/j evrhmw,sewj to. r`hqe.n dia. Danih.l tou/ profh,tou e`sto.j evn to,pw| a`gi,w|( o` avnaginw,skwn noei,tw

I suggest that if you compare Matthew's and Luke's records, then this is speaking about AD70.

Matthew 24:15–21 (KJV): 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18  Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Luke 21:20–24 (KJV): 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Not only are the accounts parallel, but Luke adds more detail showing that after Jerusalem is desolated by the Roman army, then the Jews are led away captive for a long period of time that would only terminate when the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. I am not sure how you would explain Luke 21:24.
 
Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Samie]

1 hour ago, TrevorL said:

I am not sure how you would explain Luke 21:24.

My only explanation is what the Lord Himself explained in Matt 24: 15-31; Mark 13:14-27 & Luke 21:20-27. 

The Lord Himself consistently explained that the occurrence of the great tribulation in those verses will be just SHORTLY before He comes again.  This is even made even more clear in Daniel 12 where the explaining angel told Daniel, that the occurrence of the great tribulation - labelled time of trouble in Daniel 12:1, 2 - will be in such a time where those in the graves - both the just and the unjust -  will be resurrected, and all those whose names are in the book (of life?) will be delivered.  I can't understand how this doesn't point to the second coming when Matthew, Mark & Luke all concluded:

KJV Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

KJV Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

KJV Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

I am amazed at how you and others come to the conclusion that the armies compassing Jerusalem mentioned in Luke 21:20 can only refer to Titus’ army in AD 70 and cannot in any way point to the army of the vile-person-king of Dan 11, as mentioned by the explaining angel to Gabriel:

^KJV Daniel 11:41, 45 - 12:2 ⁴¹He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: ⁴⁵ And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.  ^KJV Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.  ² And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Just like in Matthew, Mark & Luke, in the above verses from Daniel, the great tribulation or time of trouble occurs at a time when the dead are raised and the people of God delivered.  Am afraid Scriptures point to a direction away from yours, TrevorL.

[B/W Photodude]

On 3/3/2017 at 7:02 PM, Samie said:

For me, "the" is definite.  There is only one, and no other else beside.  But, it had long been taught that the above verse already found fulfillment in 70 AD.  Hence, if there is another fulfillment yet to occur before Christ comes, then "the abomination of desolation" becomes "an abomination of desolation".  Is "an abomination of desolation" a translation faithful to the Greek text?

I have been finding that many prophecies apply more than one time. And in Scripture, there is "the" Anti-Christ and then there are antichrists. I have lost track of the verse, but in one place it says if you judge someone, you have usurped the position and authority of God and have become antichrist. I suspicion there are a LOT of antichrists running around in the world and throughout our church!. However, there will be "the" Anti-Christ in the end times.

So, I suspicion that an endtime "abomination of desolation" needs to be carefully considered. We can individually consider it, but also, make sure you don't make it a "matter of private interpretation" as Peter warned. All new understandings of Biblical prophecies should come out of group studies. But you do need to carefully consider who your study partners are!

But on a side note, what would you call the total eradication of any similarities to God in the fallen people of this earth that will be a completion of wickedness?

[Samie]

2 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

I have been finding that many prophecies apply more than one time. And in Scripture, there is "the" Anti-Christ and then there are antichrists.

No problem with the antichrists.  Scriptures are vocal about them.  But not so with THE great tribulation.  Jesus said none like it before nor will there be like it after. Ergo, only one.  And IMMEDIATELY after it, unusual celestial phenomena will occur which will be capped by the 2nd coming of our Lord.

      ^KJV Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

If the great tribulation occurred AD 70 as taught, and then the unusual celestial phenomena followed in the dark day of 1780 and then meteoric swarms of 1833, are we saying 18th century darkening of the sun and moon and 19th century falling of stars IMMEDIATELY followed the first century?

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Samie,

21 hours ago, Samie said:

I am amazed at how you and others come to the conclusion that the armies compassing Jerusalem mentioned in Luke 21:20 can only refer to Titus’ army in AD 70 and cannot in any way point to the army of the vile-person-king of Dan 11, as mentioned by the explaining angel to Gabriel:

Just like in Matthew, Mark & Luke, in the above verses from Daniel, the great tribulation or time of trouble occurs at a time when the dead are raised and the people of God delivered.  Am afraid Scriptures point to a direction away from yours, TrevorL.

I appreciate your response, but I do not accept that you have explained Luke 21:24. There has been since AD70 a down-treading of Jerusalem by the Gentiles, and only recently in 1967 have we seen a partial reversal of this as Jerusalem is once again in the hands of the Jews. On the other hand you seem to be excluding AD70 altogether, but Luke 21:24 seems to indicate that Luke 21:20 is talking primarily about the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem and destroying (note desolation KJV) it in AD70.

Kind regards
Trevor

[Samie]

1 hour ago, TrevorL said:

I appreciate your response, but I do not accept that you have explained Luke 21:24.

I respect your non-acceptance of my explanation.

But you may have noticed that the army of the vile-person king of Dan 11:21ff could very well tread down Jerusalem as can be gleaned from Dan 11:41ff.  What verse(s) in Scriptures did you base your conclusion that Titus' army in AD 70 did the treading down of Jerusalem foretold by Jesus?

Again I ask: If, as you claim, the great tribulation occurred AD 70, and then the unusual celestial phenomena followed in the dark day of 1780 and then meteoric swarms of 1833, are we saying the 18th century darkening of the sun and moon and the 19th century falling of stars IMMEDIATELY followed the first century great tribulation of AD 70?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Samie, 

12 hours ago, Samie said:

I respect your non-acceptance of my explanation.

But you may have noticed that the army of the vile-person king of Dan 11:21ff could very well tread down Jerusalem as can be gleaned from Dan 11:41ff.  What verse(s) in Scriptures did you base your conclusion that Titus' army in AD 70 did the treading down of Jerusalem foretold by Jesus?

Again I ask: If, as you claim, the great tribulation occurred AD 70, and then the unusual celestial phenomena followed in the dark day of 1780 and then meteoric swarms of 1833, are we saying the 18th century darkening of the sun and moon and the 19th century falling of stars IMMEDIATELY followed the first century great tribulation of AD 70?

 

I did not claim that "the great tribulation occurred AD70". Although you seem to be ignoring the clear meaning of Luke 21:24, I suggest that it does have a significant bearing on the subject of this thread and the overall understanding of AD70 and what has and will occur in these last days.

 

Jesus’ words in Luke 21:24 seem to be quoting and alluding to Daniel 8:

Daniel 8:13-14 (KJV): ¹³ Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? ¹⁴ And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Luke 21:20-24 (KJV): ²⁰ And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. ²¹ Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. ²² For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. ²³ But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. ²⁴ And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

There have been a succession of nations who have trodden down Jerusalem, commencing with Babylon, then Greece and Rome. The Mosques now occupying Jerusalem are evidence of another treading down. Each of these invasions are abominations that have made desolate the Temples, and the Holy Mount. But there is a reversal commenced, partial at this stage when the Jews recaptured Jerusalem militarily in 1967, 2300 years after Alexander defeated the Persians in BC 334-333.

 

The present status of Jerusalem, political, religious and who has the right to live there, the settlements in the West Bank are current problems that the nations seek to resolve. But Ezekiel 38, Zechariah 14 and Daniel 11:40-45 indicate that there will be another invasion of the land of Israel and some of the focus will be on Jerusalem. The Lord Jesus Christ will then intervene, convert a remnant of natural Israel and establish the Kingdom of God upon the earth, sitting on the throne of David in Jerusalem for the 1000 years.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[Samie]

13 hours ago, TrevorL said:

I did not claim that "the great tribulation occurred AD70". Although you seem to be ignoring the clear meaning of Luke 21:24, I suggest that it does have a significant bearing on the subject of this thread and the overall understanding of AD70 and what has and will occur in these last days.

What IGNORING do you have in mind?  In two successive posts I said the army of the vile person king in Dan 11 will do the treading down shortly before the second coming.  Is that still ignoring the treading down of Jerusalem mentioned in Luke 21:24?

While you claim that Luke 21:24 has a direct bearing on the subject of this thread which is the abomination of desolation, the setting of which will trigger the occurrence of the great tribulation as per the words of Christ Himself, yet you do not claim the great tribulation occurred AD 70 the year you believe the abomination of desolation was set up via Titus' army.  I smell inconsistency.

[Dave Watchman]

While we must hold fast to the truths which we have already received, we must not look with suspicion upon any new light that God may send. {GW92 390.1} {RH, August 7, 1894 par. 1} 

 

Remember the story of the Roman army standing outside Jerusalem's walls in the land given to the Levites? Land that was given to them by God?  A "holy place"?

“When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.

"The promised sign had been given to the waiting Christians, and now an opportunity was offered for all who would, to obey the Saviour's warning. Events were so overruled that neither Jews nor Romans should hinder the flight of the Christians. Upon the retreat of Cestius, the Jews, sallying from Jerusalem, pursued after his retiring army; and while both forces were thus fully engaged, the Christians had an opportunity to leave the city. At this time the country also had been cleared of enemies who might have endeavored to intercept them. At the time of the siege, the Jews were assembled at Jerusalem to keep the Feast of Tabernacles, and thus the Christians throughout the land were able to make their escape unmolested. Without delay they fled to a place of safety—the city of Pella, in the land of Perea, beyond Jordan. GC 30.2

When those 1st century followers of Jesus saw the Roman army standing in their "holy place", they were able to make their escape unmolested. Then the Jews came back and had a party. They thought that they had won. But it would still be a couple of years before the blood and guts part of their tribulation would begin.

Now fast forward to our end time abomination of desolation standing in an all new "holy place". Will the 1st century destruction of Jerusalem provide a template for the timing of our tribulation?

On 3/7/2017 at 7:56 AM, Samie said:

What verse(s) in Scriptures did you base your conclusion that Titus' army in AD 70 did the treading down of Jerusalem foretold by Jesus?

“But before all this,- Luke 21:12

Jesus makes demarcation lines in Luke 21. He splits the chapter into "thirds". Like a Day of the Lord style prophecy, like Isaiah 13. Luke 21 is not THE abomination of desolation, just "an" abomination that made Jerusalem desolate.

 

Luke 21 was during the daytime, inside the Temple and in front of a crowd of people.

 

Mathew 24 was 25 minutes away from the Temple, at the end of the day, at night, on the mount called Olivet, and with only four disciples in attendance.

"Early in the morning he came again to the temple. All the people came to him, and he sat down and taught them. - John 8

"And every day he was teaching in the temple, but at night he went out and lodged on the mount called Olivet.

And early in the morning all the people came to him in the temple to hear him. - Luke 21

[TrevorL]

In my previous post I drew attention to the similarity of the language of Daniel 8:13-14 and Luke 21:24, and showing that Luke 21:24 is speaking concerning AD70. Both Daniel 8 and 9 speak of the removal of the daily sacrifice and the destruction of the sanctuary. This occurred in AD70 when the Roman armies besieged Jerusalem and then destroyed the Temple:

Daniel 8:9-12 (KJV): ⁹ And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. ¹⁰ And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. ¹¹ Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. ¹² And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Daniel 9:26-27 (KJV): ²⁶ And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. ²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.  

 

The fact that these two passages necessitate the existence of the Temple and the daily sacrifice at the time of their removal indicates that they are speaking concerning AD70 and not the present era as there is no Temple at Jerusalem today.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[JoeMo]

4 hours ago, TrevorL said:

The fact that these two passages necessitate the existence of the Temple and the daily sacrifice at the time of their removal indicates that they are speaking concerning AD70 and not the present era as there is no Temple at Jerusalem today.

Ezekiel 40 - 48 gives a very detailed description on a restored temple in Jerusalem that is beyond any temple built previously (arguably, this could be a Temple built during/after the millennium).  Religious Jews and pro-Israel Christians are planning a new temple.  Most of the Temple furnishings are already made.  Several viable candidates for the red heifer have been identified.  An unofficial Sanhedrin has been organized. Detailed plans for a new temple have been drawn up. see https://www.templeinstitute.org/ for more detailed info.

The historical/preterist view of eschatology (the events of 70 AD wer fulfillment of Daniel's prophecies) leads to the concept that God has permanently rejected Israel as His chosen people; and that Christians have replaced them. (supersessionism or "replacement theology").  It is an extremely flawed viewpoint that has led the majority of Christians to persecute the Jews mercilessly for almost 2,000 years.  It also makes God look like a liar.  His covenants with Abraham and David are one-sided and unconditional - they can NEVER be revoked unless God is a promise-breaker.

"

 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,  and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

“The deliverer will come from Zion;  he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.  And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”  As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable

[Samie]

7 hours ago, TrevorL said:

The fact that these two passages necessitate the existence of the Temple and the daily sacrifice at the time of their removal indicates that they are speaking concerning AD70 and not the present era as there is no Temple at Jerusalem today.

I opt to say, the fact that the two passages refer to Temple services SIGNIFIES that temple rebuilding will be put in place some time before the setting up of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. 

Again, the words of our Savior are crystal clear on the fact that the setting up of the abomination of desolation will trigger the great tribulation or time of trouble at which point in time the dead will rise from their graves and deliverance of God's people will occur.  If this is not second coming, when was this?  Surely, this could not have occurred AD 70.

KJV Daniel 12:  1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.  2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

[TrevorL]

 

Greetings JoeMo and Greetings again Samie,

5 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Ezekiel 40 - 48 gives a very detailed description on a restored temple in Jerusalem that is beyond any temple built previously (arguably, this could be a Temple built during/after the millennium).  Religious Jews and pro-Israel Christians are planning a new temple.  Most of the Temple furnishings are already made.  

2 hours ago, Samie said:

I opt to say, the fact that the two passages refer to Temple services SIGNIFIES that temple rebuilding will be put in place some time before the setting up of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet. 

The temple described in Ezekiel 40-48 is set in the context of the events described in Ezekiel 38-39 that speak of a northern invasion by a confederacy headed by the Prince of Rosh (RV) at a time when there has been a partial restoration of the Jews to the Holy Land, having emigrated to become agriculturalists and traders. Ezekiel 39 shows that they have returned in ignorance of Jesus as the Messiah.

Ezekiel 38:7-16 (KJV): ⁷ Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them. ⁸ After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them. ⁹ Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee. ¹⁰ Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought: ¹¹ And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, ¹² To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

 

Ezekiel 38 then describes the Divine intervention to destroy these invading armies, and then Ezekiel 40-48 describe the details of the Temple to be built as the centre of Divine worship for all nations. Ezekiel 43 depicts the return of the Divine glory entering the east gate. This is in contrast to the glory that had departed from the first Temple and had accompanied the Cherubim in Ezekiel 1-11, departing via the Mount of Olives.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

 

[Samie]

Trevor,

What is your take relative to Dan 12:1, 2?  When will it occur, or, had it already occurred?  Thanks.

[CherylG]

The passages of mathew 24:15-16, Luke 21:20-21 and Mark 13:14 have a dual application. One for the time around Ad 66-70 and the other for Gods

people giving the loud cry message at the end of time when the Sunday worship laws will be enacted.

"Christ presented before them an outline of the prominent events to take place before the close of time. His words were not then fully understood; but their meaning was to be unfolded as His people should need the instruction therein given. The prophecy which He uttered was twofold in its meaning; while foreshadowing the destruction of Jerusalem, it prefigured also the terrors of the last great day. " {GC 25.3} 

"When the idolatrous standards of the Romans should be set up in the holy ground, which extended some furlongs outside the city walls, then the followers of Christ were to find safety in flight. When the warning sign should be seen, those who would escape must make no delay. Throughout the land of Judea, as well as in Jerusalem itself, the signal for flight must be immediately obeyed. He who chanced to be upon the housetop must not go down into his house, even to save his most valued treasures. Those who were working in the fields or vineyards must not take time to return for the outer garment laid aside while they should be toiling in the heat of the day. They must not hesitate a moment, lest they be involved in the general destruction."  {GC 25.4}

Seige 1 happened in Ad 66  

"At the time of the siege, the Jews were assembled at Jerusalem to keep the Feast of Tabernacles, and thus the Christians throughout the land were able to make their escape unmolested. Without delay they fled to a place of safety--the city of Pella, in the land of Perea, beyond Jordan." {GC 30.2}

Around three and a half years later: 

Seige 2 happened in Ad 70

"Terrible were the calamities that fell upon Jerusalem when the siege was resumed by Titus. The city was invested at the time of the Passover, when millions of Jews were assembled within its walls."

Gods people were safe because they listened to the warnings and left when they saw the sign.

ENDTIME APPLICATION:

"The time is not far distant, when, like the early disciples, we shall be forced to seek a refuge in desolate and solitary places. As the siege of Jerusalem by the Roman armies was the signal for flight to the Judean Christians, so the assumption of power on the part of our nation in the decree enforcing the papal sabbath will be a warning to us. It will then be time to leave the large cities, preparatory to leaving the smaller ones for retired homes in secluded places among the mountains."{5T 464-465}

"But when the decree shall go forth enforcing the counterfeit Sabbath, and when the loud cry of the third angel shall warn men against the worship of the beast and his image, the line will be clearly drawn between the false and the true. Then those who still continue in transgression will receive the mark of the beast in their foreheads or in their hands."  {BTS, February 1, 1913 par. 5}  
* The 1260 day timeline of Daniel 12:7 starts with the decree enforcing the papal Sunday sabbath.

* God's people will give the loud cry against worshipping the beast and his image during this time.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Samie,

7 hours ago, Samie said:

Trevor,

What is your take relative to Dan 12:1, 2?  When will it occur, or, had it already occurred?  Thanks.

You have asked an interesting question, but first it is necessary to consider the context.

Daniel 11:40-45 (KJV): ⁴⁰ And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. ⁴¹ He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. ⁴² He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. ⁴³ But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps. ⁴⁴ But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. ⁴⁵ And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

I believe that the invasion by the King of the North depicted above is the same invasion depicted in Ezekiel as an invasion from the north headed up by the Prince of Rosh (RV) as mentioned in my previous post. Also I would like to suggest that Zechariah 14 is also parallel. The outcome is also parallel, where there is Divine intervention and the defeat of these armies, and then the establishment of the Kingdom of God upon the earth. Another passage that meshes in with these three prophecies is Isaiah 2:1-5 and the similar passage in Micah 4:1-8.

 

Daniel 12:1-4 (KJV): ¹ And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. ² And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. ³ And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

I am not sure what you want me to explain concerning the above, but this part of Daniel is like another layer upon the events of Daniel 11:40-45. While Daniel 11:40-45 speaks of what happens to the King of the North, Daniel 12:1-4 consider the effect and events as they relate to natural Israel and God’s faithful ones, some of who are alive when Christ returns, but many are asleep in the grave. I believe the “Michael” of Daniel 12:1 is the Lord Jesus Christ who has assumed the role previously occupied by Michael the archangel. As Daniel 12:1-4 are a layer, then the exact sequence needs to be determined by means of the many parallel passages that deal with the events surrounding Christ’ second coming. Nevertheless Daniel 12:1-4 and Daniel 11:40-45 speak concerning events at the same time, that is at the time of the end, and I believe that this is very near.

 

Kind regards

Trevor

[Samie]

7 hours ago, TrevorL said:

I am not sure what you want me to explain concerning the above, but this part of Daniel is like another layer upon the events of Daniel 11:40-45. While Daniel 11:40-45 speaks of what happens to the King of the North, Daniel 12:1-4 consider the effect and events as they relate to natural Israel and God’s faithful ones, some of who are alive when Christ returns, but many are asleep in the grave. I believe the “Michael” of Daniel 12:1 is the Lord Jesus Christ who has assumed the role previously occupied by Michael the archangel. As Daniel 12:1-4 are a layer, then the exact sequence needs to be determined by means of the many parallel passages that deal with the events surrounding Christ’ second coming. Nevertheless Daniel 12:1-4 and Daniel 11:40-45 speak concerning events at the same time, that is at the time of the end, and I believe that this is very near.

Thanks, Trevor. 

I deduce from your post that Dan 12:1-4 relates to Christ's second coming.  I believe so, too.

For me, since the time of trouble of Dan 12 = the great tribulation of Matt 24, then the great tribulation will occur shortly before the second coming.  And since from Christ's own words the setting up of the abomination of desolation will trigger the great tribulation or time of trouble, it NECESSARILY follows that THE abomination of desolation will be set up shortly before the second coming.

[Samie]

13 hours ago, CherylG said:

The passages of mathew 24:15-16, Luke 21:20-21 and Mark 13:14 have a dual application. One for the time around Ad 66-70 and the other for Gods

people giving the loud cry message at the end of time when the Sunday worship laws will be enacted.

Can you please tell us your take on what THE abomination of desolation is?  Had it been set up, or, yet to be set up?  Thanks.

[phkrause]

Here's a Jewish perspective

https://weekly.israelbiblecenter.com/hanukkah-abomination-desolation/

Hanukkah and the Abomination of Desolation

As Yeshua and his followers were leaving Jerusalem, his disciples marveled at the beauty of the Temple. Jesus responded, “Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.” (Matt 24:2 NASB). How could Yeshua know that the Temple would be destroyed?

In 167 BCE, the Seleucid ruler Antiochus IV began forcing the local population of Judea to abandon their ancestral ways and to worship pagan gods. The Seleucids defiled the Jerusalem Temple, robbed its treasures, and erected a statue of Zeus in the holy place (1 Macc 1:41-64). Many believe that the book of Daniel speaks of this horrific event when it states, “On the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate” (וְעַל כְּנַף שִׁקּוּצִים מְשֹׁמֵם; Dan 9:27 NASB). In Hebrew, שִׁקּוּץ (shekutz) is something “impure”, “detestable” and “vile” that is often related to idols and the worship of foreign gods (cf. Deut 29:16; Isa 66:3; Zech 9:7; 1 Kgs 11:5; Nah 3:6). According to Daniel, this vile thing brings “destruction” and “desolation”; the Hebrew שָׁמֵם (shamem) carries an idea of “silence” and “quiet” because everything lies in ruin. Indeed, Jewish prayers in the holy place ceased when Antiochus desecrated it — no one sang or sounded the shofar in the Temple.

 

In those days, a priestly group of Jews known as Maccabees fled to the mountains, revolted against the Seleucids, and fought the invaders for seven years. In 160 BCE they recaptured the Temple, cleansed it from defilement, and resumed sacrifices to Israel’s God (1 Macc 4:52). Today, we remember those events by celebrating Hanukkah (חֲנוּכָּה) the holiday of “dedication.” We light special multi-branched lamps to remember the miracles of those days. Yet while the Maccabees cleansed the Temple, they did not rid Israel of foreign influence. As the Seleucid Empire declined, Rome ascended as the world’s next great power. The Maccabees made a strategic alliance with the Romans, but eventually they would come to exercise the same kind of power over Israel that the Seleucids had before them.

The buildings that impressed Jesus’ disciples so much were erected by Herod the Great, who began expanding the Jerusalem Temple complex in 20 BCE. He did no live to see its completion around 60 CE, and it would be destroyed by the Roman army just a decade later. Yeshua was right: the marvelous buildings would be toppled to the ground by Titus in 70 CE. Jesus warned his disciples, “when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place… flee to the mountains” (Matt 24:15-16).

It seems that the words of Daniel were not just about the desolation of Antiochus in the Maccabean era. Yeshua foresaw the greater desolation of Titus in the Roman period. Sometimes history repeats itself! In every generation there are those who seek to ruin, and attempt to lay waste the holy things of God. But the spirit of holiness that once burned in the Maccabees continues to burn in the hearts of many Jews who light the Hanukkah lamps today. Whatever the future may hold, with or without the Temple, the people and Land of Israel remain, and God continues to work among his children.

[Gustave]

16 hours ago, phkrause said:

 

In those days, a priestly group of Jews known as Maccabees fled to the mountains, revolted against the Seleucids, and fought the invaders for seven years. In 160 BCE they recaptured the Temple, cleansed it from defilement, and resumed sacrifices to Israel’s God (1 Macc 4:52). Today, we remember those events by celebrating Hanukkah (חֲנוּכָּה) the holiday of “dedication.” We light special multi-branched lamps to remember the miracles of those days. Yet while the Maccabees cleansed the Temple, they did not rid Israel of foreign influence. As the Seleucid Empire declined, Rome ascended as the world’s next great power. The Maccabees made a strategic alliance with the Romans, but eventually they would come to exercise the same kind of power over Israel that the Seleucids had before them.

 

Jesus recognized the cleansing of the Temple by attending the Feast of the Dedication Himself. Jews at the time Jesus was walking around  (& prior) believed the abomination of desolation was specifically  Antiochus contaminating the temple by violating the worship ritual (that's how God was worshiped - a Liturgy of sorts). 

[JoeMo]

The ultimate fulfillment of the prophecy concerning the abomination of desolation and cleansing of the temple, IMHO, is still in the future. - one of the last things to happen before the Second Coming of Christ.