Passover & Christianity

[B/W Photodude]

22 hours ago, Ron Amnsn said:

The term "ceremonial law" is never used in Scripture.  Such a category of law is not defined in Scripture.  Never is any category of law resembling "ceremonial law" spoken of in Scripture.  "Ceremonial law" is an imaginary vaguely-defined man-made category that is artificially superimposed onto God's instructions, often by by someone who is attempting to explain why some of God's instructions should be set aside.  

There are quite a number of terms that are used and will be found in a Biblical dictionary that are found nowhere in the Bible. They are really nothing more than a way of defining a particular practice, type of laws, or any number of other things that an astute Bible scholar will pick up in the study of Scripture. So, the term "ceremonial law" may never have been used in the Bible, but there is chapter after chapter detailing everything about the Sanctuary service and the construction of the temple. Apparently, breaking the 'ceremonial law" had some very real penalties. Just ask Nadab and Abihu. 

[B/W Photodude]

18 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Sometimes, we think we are pretty clever with our never-ending check-lists

The checklist seems to be a good way to organize 613 laws. However, the law given directly to the people by God was only ten laws or commandments. They are perfect, but apparently the people were not able to apply them to their lives and thus 613 regulations were given to assist them in keeping the law of God. As I mentioned before, sometimes laws are just the average of the ethics of a group of people and in the case of the Israelites, they really were a low level of ethical behavior. Keep in mind, the 613 laws allowed the keeping of slaves and how to get a divorce, which Jesus referred to as "out of the hardness of their hearts." In meditating on the law to observe all things ( This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: ... Joshua 1:8 ) one could find an infinite number of ways to keep the law of God. Previously mentioned there were laws that said "do" and there were laws that said "do not." This especially applies to the Law of God and every "do not" can also be understood to show one what they should do. For instance "that shalt not steal" should be understood to mean that in every situation in life absolute honesty would be practiced. You can go thru each of them and find a spiritual application. It is often said the 10 commandments were a transcript of God's character. However, I hardly think God is sitting on His throne thinking  "I am not going to do this and not going to do that!" The Ten Commandments were so central that they were placed in the Ark in the Tabernacle. Given that there is meaning to these tables of the Law being at the center of the Day of Atonement, think about what they mean for the Investigative Judgement. 

[8thdaypriest]

The Pharisees (which became the Orthodox Jews ) added on something called the "Oral Torah".   They said there were commands that God spoke to Moses, that were not written down, but rather were passed down orally.  This allowed them to add any number of burdensome commands, and interpretations of the Torah.  Theses commands are not those written down in the Books of Moses - Genesis to Deuteronomy.  Most folks do not realize that Orthodox Jews are following many commands NOT derived from the written Books of Moses. 

Here is the commentary from Wikipedia:

According to Rabbinic Judaism, the Oral Torah or Oral Law (Hebrew: תורה שבעל פה‬, Torah she-be-`al peh, lit. "Torah that is on the mouth") represents those laws, statutes, and legal interpretations that were not recorded in the Five Books of Moses, the "Written Torah" (Hebrew: תורה שבכתב‬, Torah she-bi-khtav, lit. "Torah that is in writing"), but nonetheless are regarded by Orthodox Jews as prescriptive and co-given. This holistic Jewish code of conduct encompasses a wide swathe of rituals, worship practices, God–man and interpersonal relationships, from dietary laws to Sabbath and festival observance to marital relations, agricultural practices, and civil claims and damages.

According to Jewish tradition, the Oral Torah was passed down orally in an unbroken chain from generation to generation until its contents were finally committed to writing following the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, when Jewish civilization was faced with an existential threat.^{[1][clarification needed]}

The major repositories of the Oral Torah are the Mishnah, compiled between 200–220 CE by Rabbi Yehudah haNasi, and the Gemara, a series of running commentaries and debates concerning the Mishnah, which together are the Talmud, the preeminent text of Rabbinic Judaism. In fact, two "versions" of the Talmud exist: one produced in Jerusalem c. 300–350 CE (the Jerusalem Talmud), and second, more extensive Talmud compiled in Babylonia and published c. 450–500 CE (the Babylonian Talmud).

Belief that the Oral Torah was transmitted orally from God to Moses on Mount Sinai during the Exodus from Egypt is a fundamental tenet of faith of Orthodox Judaism, and was recognized as one of the Thirteen Principles of Faith by Maimonides. However, not all branches of Rabbinic Judaism accept the divine provenance of the Oral Torah, such that Conservative and (to a greater extent) Reform Jews give deference to the Talmudic sages while empowering themselves to formulate and adopt their own rulings and interpretations.

There have also been historical dissenters to the Oral Torah in its entirety, including adherents to Karaite Judaism, who attempt to derive their religious practice strictly from the Written Torah, using Scripture's most natural meaning to form their basis of Jewish law.

[8thdaypriest]

16 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

The checklist seems to be a good way to organize 613 laws. However, the law given directly to the people by God was only ten laws or commandments. They are perfect, but apparently the people were not able to apply them to their lives and thus 613 regulations were given to assist them in keeping the law of God. As I mentioned before, sometimes laws are just the average of the ethics of a group of people and in the case of the Israelites, they really were a low level of ethical behavior. Keep in mind, the 613 laws allowed the keeping of slaves and how to get a divorce, which Jesus referred to as "out of the hardness of their hearts." In meditating on the law to observe all things ( This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: ... Joshua 1:8 ) one could find an infinite number of ways to keep the law of God. Previously mentioned there were laws that said "do" and there were laws that said "do not." This especially applies to the Law of God and every "do not" can also be understood to show one what they should do. For instance "that shalt not steal" should be understood to mean that in every situation in life absolute honesty would be practiced. You can go thru each of them and find a spiritual application. It is often said the 10 commandments were a transcript of God's character. However, I hardly think God is sitting on His throne thinking  "I am not going to do this and not going to do that!" The Ten Commandments were so central that they were placed in the Ark in the Tabernacle. Given that there is meaning to these tables of the Law being at the center of the Day of Atonement, think about what they mean for the Investigative Judgement. 

The people at the foot of Sinai begged Moses to ask God NOT to speak to them directly again.  Thereafter God spoke through Moses.  Does that make what God said through Moses any less important? 

Later God spoke through His Son.  Jesus said, "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might." He quoted Moses  (Deut 6:5).  He said this is the greatest commandment.   He said, "And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." (Mat 22:39-40 NRS)

Some folks think themselves so wise in the ways of God, that they need not consider any written law beyond these two commands.  I personally need the elementary primer. 

[8thdaypriest]

17 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

There are quite a number of terms that are used and will be found in a Biblical dictionary that are found nowhere in the Bible. They are really nothing more than a way of defining a particular practice, type of laws, or any number of other things that an astute Bible scholar will pick up in the study of Scripture. So, the term "ceremonial law" may never have been used in the Bible, but there is chapter after chapter detailing everything about the Sanctuary service and the construction of the temple. Apparently, breaking the 'ceremonial law" had some very real penalties. Just ask Nadab and Abihu. 

I like to call the "ceremonial law" - "the prophetic Law".   All those laws were prophetic of what Christ would do to reconcile lost human beings to His Father. 

The 10 Commands were a promise of what HE will write on our hearts, if we allow HIM to do so. 

[Ron Amnsn]

On 4/12/2018 at 5:07 PM, B/W Photodude said:

There are quite a number of terms that are used and will be found in a Biblical dictionary that are found nowhere in the Bible. They are really nothing more than a way of defining a particular practice, type of laws, or any number of other things that an astute Bible scholar will pick up in the study of Scripture. So, the term "ceremonial law" may never have been used in the Bible, but there is chapter after chapter detailing everything about the Sanctuary service and the construction of the temple. Apparently, breaking the 'ceremonial law" had some very real penalties. Just ask Nadab and Abihu. 

Yes.  As I said, the concept of "ceremonial law" has been artificially superimposed onto Scripture.  None of the authors of Scripture needed (or used) such a category in order to present the gospel or any other aspect of God's will.  Since such a category was not part of Paul's gospel, it is apparently part of a different gospel.

God's Law given through Moses does contain instructions regarding the Sanctuary, its construction, and its services. (Nadab and Abihu didn't take those instructions seriously and suffered the consequences.)  However, the Scriptures never speak of those instructions as an identifiable subset of laws that can be separated from the rest of God's Law.  Those who use the term "ceremonial law" seem to add a concept to God's Law in order to take away instructions from God's Law that was given to be a guide throughout the generations of Israel.  It appears that God forbade such "adding to" and "taking away from" His instructions in places like Deuteronomy 4:2 and Deuteronomy 12:32 and Matthew 5:17-19?

[B/W Photodude]

41 minutes ago, Ron Amnsn said:

Yes.  As I said, the concept of "ceremonial law" has been artificially superimposed onto Scripture.  None of the authors of Scripture needed (or used) such a category in order to present the gospel or any other aspect of God's will.  Since such a category was not part of Paul's gospel, it is apparently part of a different gospel.

I think we are beginning to go in circles here.

[Ron Amnsn]

On 4/11/2018 at 6:51 PM, JoeMo said:

How many of these 613 Laws must be kept in order to be saved?  Or is salvation all about what Jesus has done for us?

Your first question reflects a checklist approach to salvation that is common among some Christians. That approach seems to boil down to "What's the least I can do and still get into heaven and avoid the lake of fire?" That question is a slight variation of "What's the least I can do for God?"  If a person is relating to God in that manner, they would never be able to keep the greatest commandment of the Law identified by Jesus -- the one that involves one's whole heart.

I don't think that was your intent in asking the question.  I think you were contrasting it with your second question.

Your second question is also common among Christians.  The answer to that question according to Scripture is "no".  Although Jesus has indeed provided all that is necessary for salvation for every person, each person's salvation will still depend on how he responds to the salvation that Jesus has provided.  If a person says, "No thanks, I'm good enough as I am," because he thinks he already measures up to whatever standard is important him ( the 613, or the 10, or the 2, or the "politically correct" guide to ethics, or whatever ) then he would be on his own.  (I've not yet met anyone who recognizes the validity of the 613 who didn't recognize his daily need for God's grace.)

There are also other responses to the salvation that Jesus has provided that could be problematic.  For example I've heard people say, "Jesus kept the Law so I don't have to."  I don't understand what they mean by that.  If we interpret that in the sense of "Jesus earned salvation for us by keeping the Law so we don't need to earn salvation for ourselves by keeping the Law,"  the statement is irrelevant because the Law was never given for the purpose of earning one's salvation.

Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." (John 14:15 ESV, NASB)  He did not say, "If you want to get to heaven, you must keep my commandments."

Yet it is clear in the New Testament that our behavior will be significant in determining our eternal destiny. 

How could our words and our actions be significant in determining our salvation without being the cause of our salvation?  I think it's because our actions and words are a "meter" that indicates the condition of our heart.  A voltage meter indicates the presence of electricity and the direction it would flow if a suitable conductor were present, but the meter is not the cause of the electricity that it measures.  In a similar manner our words and actions show the condition of our heart -- our loyalty, our allegiance, whether we are in covenant with God, whether we are a citizen of the Kingdom.

[Ron Amnsn]

4 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Its not possible to correct one's behavior or responses by quoting this text "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments,"

Of course.

6 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

This kind of promise is not intended for all 613 or whatever number one chooses for how many "commandments" to "obey," only to the ten or the two.

How did you determine that the promise is not intended for the rest of the instructions that God gave to the Israelites in the Books of Moses, but only to the ten or the two? 

The Jews seem to understand the Ten Words in the Covenant document to be a summary or Table of Contents to the rest of God's instructions.

How do you separate YHWH of the Old Testament from Jesus?  It seems necessary to distinguish between YHWH from Jesus in order to not include the OT instructions of God in the "My commandments" that the followers of Jesus would be able to keep.  Ellen White says that it was the pre-incarnate Jesus who gave Moses the instructions to give to Israel.  That agrees with John 1:3 "All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made."

Jesus said, "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father."  So no matter which "personality" of the Godhead gave Israel the Law of Moses through Moses, wouldn't all of it still be part of the "My commandments" that Jesus was speaking of?

[Ron Amnsn]

24 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

The two are simply summaries of the ten.

That seems to significantly change the meaning of what Jesus actually said.  It was all the Law (the Law of Moses, the 613) as well as the Prophets that Jesus spoke of in relation to the two greatest commandments:

    One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
    “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
    Jesus replied: “ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
    This is the first and greatest commandment.
    And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’
    All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”  (Matthew 22:35-40)

We know that "the Law" refers to more than just the "10 commandments " because Jesus chose two of the 613 instructions from the rest of the Law of Moses in order to answer the question "Which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"   Also, the Jews did not call the Old Testament "the Old Testament" -- they called it "the Law and the Prophets" or "the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings" -- so when Jesus said "all the Law and the Prophets" the people listening understood him to mean the whole Old Testament (or perhaps the whole OT that was not included in "the Writings").

Jesus did not say that "All the Law and the Prophets are summarized by these two commandments."  In those days the Law and the Prophets were written on scrolls that hung on two rods while they were being read.  When Jesus said "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments" it is likely that the people listening visualized those scrolls and understood him to mean that the two greatest commandments were like those rods on which the rest of the Law of Moses and the Prophets were wrapped.  The relationship was not a summary, but a dependence (which is what the Greek means).   The meaning that would have been understood by the listeners was something like, "When you interpret every instruction that you read in the Law and the Prophets, your interpretation should not conflict with these two greatest commandments on which they all hang."  

Instead of separating the Law and the Prophets from the two greatest commandments so that only the two commandments should be retained, the words of Jesus pictured instead the Law of Moses and the Prophets hanging on the two greatest commandments in a way that keeps them all together and gives the underlying principals that should be used for interpreting the whole.

[Ron Amnsn]

27 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

What she says does not really affect my view on this; but I would like to see a reference of where you think she said this.

I will quote the relevant portions of a post I made a while back:

On 1/16/2015 at 11:07 PM, Ron Amnsn said:

I don't generally quote from Ellen White, but I am quoting some passages here to show what is already accepted as truth within the SDA church. Here are some things that Ellen White wrote:

"He who proclaimed the law from Sinai, and delivered to Moses the precepts of the ritual law, is the same that spoke the Sermon on the Mount."  {PP 373.2}

"The Old and the New Testament are inseparable, for both are the teachings of Christ." {2SP 254.1}

"And the doctrine of those who discard the Old Testament is not unto salvation, because it rejects that which is direct testimony of Christ."  {2SP 254.1}

"On the other hand, the strongest reason why Christians fail to influence the Jews to accept the teachings of Christ as the language of divine wisdom, is because, in bringing forth the treasures of his word, they treat with contempt the riches of the Old Testament, which are the earlier teachings of the Son of God, through Moses." {2SP 255.1}

"Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." My words are in perfect harmony with the Old Testament Scriptures, and with the law spoken from Sinai. I am not preaching a new doctrine." {5BC 1136.2}

"The Saviour said nothing to unsettle faith in the religion and institutions that had been given through Moses; for every ray of divine light that Israel's great leader communicated to his people was received from Christ." {MB 47.1}

"The Lord Jesus had given the special directions how to build the tabernacle." {UL 124.2}

"Jesus was the angel enshrouded in the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night, and he gave special direction that the Hebrews should teach the law of God, given when the foundation of the earth was laid, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy. The same law was proclaimed in grandeur by his own voice from Sinai. He said: "And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: and thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes." {RH, June 17, 1890 par. 9} 

Notice that Ellen White attributes to Jesus the words of Deuteronomy 6:6-8. Those words which Jesus commanded that day through Moses included a large portion of  Deuteronomy, including instructions to bring offerings.

"Jesus Christ, who was the founder of the whole Jewish economy, spoke the ten precepts of God to the people."  {ST, March 12, 1894 par. 3}

"Here was one who was the very foundation of the Jewish ceremonies, one who made the law, one who on Mount Sinai proclaimed the law, one who knew every phase and principle of the law. But he was unrecognized and unacknowledged by the leaders in Israel."  {ST, July 23, 1896 par. 5}

 

[phkrause]

9 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Jesus would have no reason to tell us to "keep" all of these [alleged] 613 laws I highly doubt that you, for eg, even keep an eigth of the 613, but I would imagine that you atleast make some effort to keep the ten or the two commandments. There is a reason for that. The two "greatest commandments are indeed a summary of the two. The greatest commandment, is a call to our relationship with God, and the second being likewise, is a call to our relationship with others around us. Likewise, the first 4 call us to relationship with God; and the last 6 call us to one form or another of our relationships with others.

Exactly!!

[phkrause]

9 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

This is a typo from my post. It was intended to say the two is a summary of the ten

I knew that! I'm a mind reader, didn't you now that??

[8thdaypriest]

Looking back to the slaves just coming out of Egypt, with no writing or reading, with no experience in things of God, with generations of mindless exhausted slavery, how can we say what they would need in the way of instruction and laws.   Dr Kholberg is famous for his analysis and studies of moral development.   I used his study as a basis for an article considering the relationship between the LORD and Israel.   Things we might consider "over the top" with thunder and lightnings and leprosy, and instant death for rebellion or disrespect, those were needed to gain the attention and respect of ancient Middle Eastern peoples.  Laws that make no sense to us today - like "thou shalt not trim the edges of your beard" - actually made sense within that context.  The LORD was telling them not to look like Babylonians.  The study is on my website - prophecyviewpoint.com.  Here's the link.

http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/37-Kohlberg.htm

As for dietary laws, I personally do not eat bottom feeders or scavengers.  Just makes sense.  Pigs were carriers of leprosy, and they were sacrificed in the worship of pagan gods.   The ancient Egyptians sacrificed a pig to the god of the underworld - on the first full moon of the vernal equinox. 

Laws of quarantine make sense today.   Separating a new mother, and leaving her alone for awhile - makes sense.    Giving women a time of separation once a month, actually gave them a little break and time to visit with other women.  It also put the next sex with their husbands at the right time for their ovulation - helping fertility. 

The more we examine the laws given to Israel, the more sense they make.   Doesn't mean we need to keep them in exactly the same way today.  But I think we should look for the principle involved, and try to incorporate those principles in our lives today.   The law that said men were not to dress like women - that law still applies.  But HOW it is applied from culture to culture, and from century to century - may be different.   Navajo Indian men still grow long hair.  In their culture that IS manly.  

As to the Feasts - I believe the priesthood was changed, and with it the sacrifice of animals.  But we can still celebrate what Christ has done, and will do - and commemorate/celebrate those things AT THE TIMES APPOINTED.  We don't go up to Jerusalem - at present, because there is no Temple there.  But someday - in the Kingdom, I believe we will.  We will go up for the sabbaths (the Feast days WERE sabbaths - rests), just as ancient Israel was commanded to appear before the LORD at Jerusalem three times in the year for the Feasts. 

Isaiah 66:22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD, "So shall your descendants and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass that from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD.

[Ron Amnsn]

On 4/15/2018 at 7:42 AM, The Wanderer said:

Jesus would have no reason to tell us to "keep" all of these [alleged] 613 laws I highly doubt that you, for eg, even keep an eigth of the 613, but I would imagine that you atleast make some effort to keep the ten or the two commandments. There is a reason for that. The two "greatest commandments are indeed a summary of the two. The greatest commandment, is a call to our relationship with God, and the second being likewise, is a call to our relationship with others around us. Likewise, the first 4 call us to relationship with God; and the last 6 call us to one form or another of our relationships with others.

I agree that the "[alleged] 613 laws" probably are not correctly enumerated.  I should probably say 600+ rather than perpetuate the idea that the 613 number is correct.

I also agree that Jesus wouldn't need to tell people to "keep" the 600+ instructions of God in the Law of Moses.  But my reason is different than yours.  The 600+ instructions of God in the Law of Moses are part of God's Word (the Scriptures that existed at the time of Jesus) and since God never told people to ignore or set aside His Word or the Scriptures, there was no need for Jesus to tell people to pay attention to what his followers were already paying attention to.

[Ron Amnsn]

On 4/15/2018 at 7:42 AM, The Wanderer said:

I highly doubt that you, for eg, even keep an eighth of the 613,

I haven't looked through Maimonides' list of 613 commandments in quite a while.  However, I suspect that most Christians live according to at least 77 of God's instructions in found in the Books of Moses. 

Most Christians I know don't generally have any trouble with "Be fruitful and multiply." They don't murder or move the boundary markers of their neighbors' property.  They have railings where there would be a danger of people falling. They don't make blind men stumble. They don't sacrifice animals away from the Temple, and they don't eat the portions of the offerings that are reserved for priests. They don't accept bribes to pervert justice. Some tithe their increase.  They don't usually kill thieves inside their homes during the daytime.  They return strayed animals to their rightful owners.  They usually honor their fathers and mothers.  They don't testify falsely in court.  They don't use dishonest scales for commerce.  They don't eat the food left in a jar where a mouse died.  They don't cross-dress. They avoid immoral sexual behavior with humans and animals.

So, does it really matter to this discussion whether I personally keep an eighth of the 600+ instructions found in God's Law of Moses, or was that just a distraction?

[Ron Amnsn]

On 4/12/2018 at 11:29 PM, The Wanderer said:

So are you saying the law of Moses is the same thing as "the Law of the Lord?"

The Hebrew doesn't usually use the word "Law" when referring to God's instructions.  The word usually used is "torah", which means instructions.  Yes, God's Law of Moses contains the instructions of the Lord.

The Scriptures and the Jews don't separate the "ten commandments" of the Covenant document from the rest of God's instructions.

[Ron Amnsn]

22 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

No, it actually does not matter a bit; I used that as a figure of speech to outline the idea that people in general would never in a million years have to or want to keep all [allegedly] 613 commandments.

It sounds like you view as a negative thing God's Law (or God's Instructions) as given to Israel through Moses and lived by Jesus.  What passages of Scripture support that negative view of God's Law or God's Instructions?

[Ron Amnsn]

22 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

God would never expect such a thing.

How have you determined this?

[Ron Amnsn]

On 4/17/2018 at 10:56 AM, The Wanderer said:

But there are definitely some things God expects regarding the ten commandments or the two greatest commandments. No twisting of semantics regarding the word "commandment" can change that.

The word "commandment" is an English word.  The translators of our English Bibles have used "commandment" to translate various Greek and Hebrew words that have various meanings.

It seems you are wanting to use the word English word "commandment" to designate a special group of God's instructions that you feel God expects us to pay attention to, and to exclude other instructions given by God that you feel God doesn't expect us to pay attention to.  However, there is plenty of evidence in our English translations that such a designation was not the intent of the Bible authors.  There is even more evidence of that when you pay attention to the Greek and Hebrew words rather than relying on the work of translators who did not value God's instructions as much as the Bible authors did.

[8thdaypriest]

On 4/16/2018 at 7:56 PM, The Wanderer said:

For example, in consideration of the OP, regarding The Passover and Christianity, there would be a number of concerns in trying to explain God’s relationship to Israel, by using Kholbergs theory of moral development. And it is all a theory, not really empiracally proven, but definitely subjectively, and anecdotally “explained.” The form-critical approach to study of the scriptures which have some comment about “The Passover And Christians;” for example is confronted left, right, and center simply by what the testimony of what the Bible text itself says, not just on a given text in question, but also in the whole rest of the Bible.

OK - so you don't like Kholberg.   I do.   We can all think of adults (physically) who are still thinking and acting at Stage Two level (many prison inmates for instance).   Doesn't mean that ALL inmates think at those levels.   Doesn't mean that ALL Isralites just coming out of slavery, functioned at Moral level 2 - "eye for eye, and tooth for tooth".  

[Ron Amnsn]

On 4/18/2018 at 12:40 PM, The Wanderer said:

As we discussed above, it would appear that you also "exclude" many of what you alledge to be 613 "laws" ...

...

( Also,  i do seriously question the number 613).

I was not clear.  I was using some of the common terminology used by Jews because I thought it would adequately identify the various parts of God's instructions for the purposes of discussion. The reason I use the term "the 613" was not because I thought that Maimonides accurately enumerated and correctly listed all the "laws" within God's Torah. I have limited confidence in Maimonides' list of 613 "laws" -- it is just one scholar's opinion about God's Word.  I used the term "the 613" because other people use the term "the 613" as a convenient and unambiguous way to refer to all of God's instructions in the Torah (however many there may actually be).  When a person refers to "the 613" we clearly know they are not speaking of any subset of God's Torah such as the "ten commandments", the "two greatest commandments", or any other subset of God's instructions such as the imaginary man-made subsets often referred to as "moral law" and "ceremonial law".

If Christians used the term "Law" as it is used in the Hebrew Scriptures and the Greek Scriptures there would be far less confusion. Christians have confused themselves by thinking (contrary to the specific command of Jesus) that Jesus somehow set aside or annulled parts of God's instructions given to Israel through Moses.  Such thinking requires them to imagine that the word "Law" somehow refers to something different than the Hebrew word "Torah" from which it is translated.

Christians have been further confused because the English translators mistranslated the Hebrew "ha debarim seret" [the words ten] and the Greek "tous deka logous" [the ten words] as "the Ten Commandments" causing most English-speaking Christians to erroneously think that a "commandment" is a special category of law consisting of only the Ten Words of the covenant document.

I will respond to the rest of your post later.

[Ron Amnsn]

On 4/26/2018 at 10:02 PM, The Wanderer said:

Which "command" of Jesus are you referring to?

Matthew 5:17  "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets;"

[Ron Amnsn]

On 4/26/2018 at 10:02 PM, The Wanderer said:

Therefore whoever shall relax one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of Heaven.

What would you identify as "the least" of the commandments in the Law?

When Jesus identified the greatest and next-greatest commandments he identified Deuteronomy 6:4-5 and Leviticus 19:18, neither of which were written on the tablets of stone, but were found in the portions of Scripture known as "the Law" (Torah, the Books of Moses) which Jesus had specifically identified earlier in the verse when he said "the Law and the Prophets" -- that's the term that was used at that time to refer to the Old Testament, where "the Law" referred to the Books of Moses and "the Prophets" referred to the writings of the prophets.  [This is one of the places where the beliefs of many Christians require them to imagine that "the Law" means something different than the Hebrew word "Torah" from which it has been translated.]

If the "greatest commandment" is found in the Law of Moses rather than on the tablets of stone, where should we look for "the least" commandment?

[Ron Amnsn]

On 4/26/2018 at 10:02 PM, The Wanderer said:

Moses' law was the temporary, ceremonial law of The Old Testament.

Where in Scripture do you find the teaching that "Moses' law" was temporary?

Where in Scripture does it teach us how to differentiate between the parts of the Books of Moses that you deem to be temporary and the parts of the Books of Moses that you deem to be longer lasting?  Since the Scriptures do not teach us any criteria that could be used to make such a differentiation, it appears that such a teaching in not Scriptural and is just a man-made doctrine that directly contradicts what is taught in Scripture regarding the duration of many of the instructions that God gave to Moses, for example:

• Exodus 12:14 “This day shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to the LORD; throughout your generations, as a statute forever, you shall keep it as a feast."
• Exodus 12:17 "And you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day, throughout your generations, as a statute forever."
• Exodus 30:10 "Aaron shall make atonement on its horns once a year. With the blood of the sin offering of atonement he shall make atonement for it once in the year throughout your generations. It is most holy to the LORD."

On 4/26/2018 at 10:02 PM, The Wanderer said:

...all of which served only to foreshadow the cross.

Where in Scripture does it teach us that "to foreshadow the cross" was the "only" purpose of the instructions of God that you deem to be "ceremonial law" (which itself is a man-made category that is not taught in Scripture) ? 

In what ways would these instructions given by God through Moses "foreshadow the cross"?

• Exodus 23:19 "You shall not boil a young goat in its mother’s milk" ?
• Leviticus 5:1 "If anyone sins in that he hears a public adjuration to testify, and though he is a witness, whether he has seen or come to know the matter, yet does not speak, he shall bear his iniquity;"
• Leviticus 19:2 "Speak to all the congregation of the people of Israel and say to them, You shall be holy, for I the LORD your God am holy." (quoted in 1 Peter 1:16)