Bush is likeable but........

[lazarus]

neil said

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So, guys, let's see those "mean spirited democrates" and their nasty quotes...

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where my quotes at! y'all

[Bravus]

I'm not doing this as a snipe at Shane at all: that post about the areas on which there should be bipartisan agreement and the ones where there are clear differences was spot-on and very useful, IMO. The only point I'd raise is while both parties talk about the value of education, Republicans seem to believe more testing is the magic solution in education, Democrats to recognise that more funding (well targeted) is sometimes also important.

But I thought I'd just rephrase the points of difference, just as a way of showing that what you see often depends on where you stand. I think actually that holding my list in tension with Shane's probably provides a balanced perspective:

• Taxation: Democrats favor more government spending on social services such as health and education to advance the nation. This entails a broad-based, fairer taxation system that may include some tax increases.

• Entitlement programs: Republicans prefer that tax-exempt (but under-funded) charities provide more services and the government less services.

• Subcontracts: Republicans prefer to contract for-profit private industry to perform government tasks and Democrats prefer expanding government to self-perform many such tasks.

• Abortion: Republicans seek to limit and/or ban abortion and Democrats favor making abortion as rare as possible through education and support, not through legislation.

• Healthcare: Republicans favor keeping healthcare in the for-profit private sector, resulting in dramatically different levels of service for rich and poor and failure to provide care for some, and Democrats favor universal government-run healthcare for everyone.

• Labor unions: Democrats favor unions as a means of giving workers protection from unscrupulous employers and enabling them to bargain collectively for wages and conditions. Republicans tend to champion business owners, sometimes at the expense of the workers.

• Gay rights: Democrats favor the same rights to marriage, tax advantages and property law for same sex couples as for all other couples. Republicans wish to discriminate against same sex couples on the grounds of their sexual identity.

Please note that I've tried to describe mainstream Republicans, which I don't believe the Bush administration represents: for example the Bush administration has dramatically *increased* the size of government spending, contrary to general Republican principles. And for 'tax-exempt charities' under 'entitlement programs', read 'religious bodies affiliated with their base' for the Bush admin.

Similarly, note that while some elements of the Democratic party want unlimited access to abortion, that's not the mainstream position, which is that abortion is a bad thing and should be absolutely minimised but that that is best done through education.

[Dr. Shane]

I don't want to come accross as saying that everyone should be in agreement on issues like national defense, free trade and civil rights. My point is that disagreement on these issues shouldn't be along party lines.

[Neil D]

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Part of the problem is that the Democrats have no majority in any area of the government so they are despartly fighting for power. They feel that as the opposition party their role is to oppose anything and everything the majority party favors. That type of attitude is going to make everything partisan.

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That is a NEO_CON/religious REPUBLICAN interpretation of the current situation. Which shows that the dems are 'desparate'...which aint the case....There are other factors at work which NEO-CONS refuse to look at. [Yes, Shane, I know that NEO-CON is inflamatory, but can you truely look at the situation without resorting to the same ol' tired interpretations???? I don't think you can.]

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Now on immergration reform we see a little less partisanship. Although even there we have some like Hilary Clinton and Ted Kennedy trying to make partisan hay out of it.

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Here are democrates attempting to show another view point, and you accuse them of "making partisan hay". When are you going to truely look at what people are saying??? I don't think can when you continue to regurgitate the republican Ack-Ack byline.

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Taxation: Demorcrats favor higher taxes and more government entitlement programs

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Here is another Republican Ack-Ack byline...Don't look at the possiblity that they are attempting to pay for programs that truely need funding, like child care, or hwy funding and the like... But do continuely accuse them of being money grubing, thieving politicians who are out to take your money and put it in thier pockets.... Seems to me, if we look at Haliburton and the current addmiinstration, we'd see a top CEO in a key position of the white house.

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Entitlement programs: Republicans prefer tax-exempt charities provide more services and the government less services.

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If tax exempt charities would step up to the plate and do the necessary services, Dem would have no problem with that...Unfortunately, there are many services that are lacking around the country and are forth coming without proper funding.... So, whatcha gonna do?

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Abortion: Republicans seek to limit and/or ban abortion and Democrats favor unrestricted access to abortion

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Depending upon how you phrase this question, most Dem have no problem with some restrictions to abortion...However, studies have shown that the more restrictions to both the economy and to abortions, the higher the number of abortions that do occur. So, restriction abortions tends to cause MORE abortions. If you want practicals applications, then you would probably favor less restrictions and cause FEWER abortions...Just depends upon whatcha want...Personally, I go with what works...Evidence shows less restrictions cause fewer abortions, so that is what I prefer...

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Healthcare: Republicans favor keeping healthcare in the private sector and Democrats favor government-run helathcare.

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This is absolutely not true. Dems want everyone to have health care. The EASIEST solution is goverment run, however, the private sector tends NOT to cover EVERYONE, ie the homeless, the out of work, the non-compliant patient [which includes the elderly and the mentally ill] who truely do need to have those services. The private sector tends to create more problems with thier restrictions and the poor tend to pay more for services [in relation to thier meager incomes] which keeps them poor. [this is know in some circles as exploitation]. It is of interest that the health care industry, at least those who do 'front-line work', ie nurse, tend to think that a national goverement run health care system would benefit all.

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Labor unions: Republicans favor the right to work and Democrats favor mandatory union membership.

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Or to look at this a bit differently, Republican favor the right to exploit the individual for the corporation and pay them as little as possible. Dems favor a good wage that allow the individual to make a living.

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Gay rights: Democrats favor a special status for gays while Republicans do not favor any special rights.

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This is not universal either...Democrates believe that ALL individuals have the right to pursue thier interests as long as those interests do not harm another individual either finanically or physically. This is an extention of the concept of 'freedom'. What the Republican agenda wants is to curry to the relgious Christians who want thier own little atomsphere of christianity in this land of the free, aka NO HOMOSEXUALS. Different philosophy...

So, Shane, just because you want to place your interpretation of democrates and republicans on clubadventist doesn't make it accurate... That's only your interpretation of what you think you see.

Aint' trying to start something, just clarifying it abit....

[Nicodema]

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Shane said:

Part of the problem is that the Democrats have no majority in any area of the government so they are despartly fighting for power. They feel that as the opposition party their role is to oppose anything and everything the majority party favors. That type of attitude is going to make everything partisan.

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With all due respect, Brother Shane - the Dems didn't invent that attitude. They learned it from some very adept teachers during the Clinton debacle.

[Dr. Shane]

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Here are democrates attempting to show another view point, and you accuse them of "making partisan hay".

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On immirgration the House Republicans put a clause in their bill that would make immirgrants felons. President Bush made it clear to them that he would not sign such a bill. When House Republicans then tried to remove that portion of the bill, House Democrats wouldn't let them. Why? Becuase that allowed Democrat senators like Clinton and Kennedy to grand stand and say the Republicans would outlaw Jesus. To me, that is making partisan hay.

[Dr. Shane]

Actually, Nico, that goes back to Democrat Tip O'Neill who was Speaker of the House during President Reagon. He became Speaker in 1977 When President Carter took office. When Carter lost and Reagon become president Tip O'Neill proclaimed that as leader of the opposition party he would oppose anything that Reagon wanted.

Now Clinton, to his credit, got along with his Republican congress much better than Reagon did with his Democrat congress.

[Neil D]

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Becuase that allowed Democrat senators like Clinton and Kennedy to grand stand and say the Republicans would outlaw Jesus. To me, that is making partisan hay.

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I saw the news conference where Kennedy and McCain were present. There was admitions that this issue was to be revisted when congress reconviened. During this conference, Kennedy said that there was political grandstanding and there was enough of it on both sides. McCain did not disagree.

Here is another example of looking at parisan situations where only the republican side is presented [by you] and not the other side. You continue to claim to be 'midddle of the political spectrum', but you can not report the political news as such.... Therefore, your views are tainted, and suspect and the other side MUST be researched out to get the 'fair and balanced' viewpoint on an issue.

How can you hope to be taken seriously when make these serious mistakes?

[Dr. Shane]

I have never seen Kennedy grandstand with McCain by his side. Maybe it would be a good idea for McCain to stick closer to him more often.

I have not heard any Republicans using immirgration as a partisan issue. I am not saying they wouldn't if they could, but I have not heard any of them do so. They are in the majority. If nothing is being done it is their own fault.

BTW: one can grandstand without making partisan hay. Immigration is a good example. There has been a lot of Republican grandstanding but that does not = making partisan hay. There is a lot of disagreement among Republicans on this issue.

[Neil D]

[:"green"] Here is what some people are reporting.... [/]

Immigrant Bill Snared by Web of Suspicion

By Ronald Brownstein, Times Staff Writer

April 8, 2006

WASHINGTON — This week's Senate stalemate on immigration sent a sobering message: Distrust between Republicans and Democrats has reached a level that can derail agreements, even when leaders in both parties publicly endorse the same policies.

Almost all the negotiators on the issue agreed that a clear majority of senators — as many as two-thirds — were prepared to vote for compromise legislation that would toughen border security, create a new guest-worker program and establish a path to citizenship for most of the estimated 12 million immigrants in the U.S. illegally.

But the bill stalled Friday and now faces an uncertain future, largely because each party suspects the other of a hidden agenda.

[:"green"] Grand standing, partisan politics, it's all the same thing...it means that the public is NOT served. So bringing this minor difference is a non-issue to this thread. However, if you want to read the rest of the article that I have put up, you can view it here [/]

[Dr. Shane]

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Grand standing, partisan politics, it's all the same thing...

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I disagree. Grandstanding is like a man beating his chest. It doesn't have to be partisan but it can be. It is like a car can be red but not everything red is a car.

[Neil D]

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Shane said:

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Grand standing, partisan politics, it's all the same thing...

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I disagree. Grandstanding is like a man beating his chest. It doesn't have to be partisan but it can be. It is like a car can be red but not everything red is a car.

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Hey, if you want to take my comment apart, that's ok...but don't take it out of context. To do so is being dishonest. Grandstanding or partisan politics SERVES no one but the politician...THE PUBLIC IS NOT SERVED...Therefore, it is all the same...it's stupid and serves no real useful purpose for the public.

So when Kennedy and McCain share the blame for grandstanding and partisian politics, they esensually are saying that they are not able to serve the public nor are they able to come to agreement FOR THE GOOD OF THIER CONSTITUANTS NOR THE GOOD OF THE PUBLIC.

[Dr. Shane]

I think grandstanding can do some good.

Let's just say there is a president that wants to take a country to war and a few Senators from each party take to the Senate floor and do some grandstanding. That could do a lot of people some good. War is just one example but there are many more. Grandstanding in and of itself is not bad. However when it is done just to gain political points it is not an admirable behavior.

[Neil D]

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lazarus said:

neil said

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So, guys, let's see those "mean spirited democrates" and their nasty quotes...

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where my quotes at! y'all

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This was posted last Thurday, and I still don't see many posts about those MEAN DEMOCRATES from mainline sources.....With the exception of Howard Dean, who is only giving what he has taken for so long from Republicans.....

But if he is the only one, he is only ONE...Whereas you got Rush, Hannity, Colter, O'Rielly, Savage bombarding the airways with thier radio/tv PROGRAMS **DAILY!!!!!**... Dean only gets noticed during press conferences....

Sheesh, guys...So where are all those quotes? ????????????????

[lazarus]

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Neil D said:

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lazarus said:

neil said

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So, guys, let's see those "mean spirited democrates" and their nasty quotes...

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where my quotes at! y'all

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Sheesh, guys...So where are all those quotes? ????????????????

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Neil,

I believe that we can safely conclude that the previous assertions about democratic leaders being as bad as the republican talking heads are false . I there are those who have been furiously searching the web, but to no avail. If these "crazy" quotes were out there ya'll would surely have posted them.

It would be in the spirit of fair debate to withdraw the previous comments because they have been clearly shown to be without veracity.

As UK Members of parliament would say "withdraw! withdraw! withdraw!

[Dr. Shane]

All one has to do is watch something other than the network news or CNN. When one lives in a bubble they will not know what goes on outside of it. That is why I get my news from a variety of sources. I already mentioned that I heard the rhetoric on Hanity and Combs. That is not an Internet source so there is no link to it. If others broaden their sources of news they too will see things other than what the networks feed us.

[Neil D]

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All one has to do is watch something other than the network news or CNN. When one lives in a bubble they will not know what goes on outside of it. That is why I get my news from a variety of sources. I already mentioned that I heard the rhetoric on Hanity and Combs. That is not an Internet source so there is no link to it. If others broaden their sources of news they too will see things other than what the networks feed us.

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In other words, go outside of mainstream, and get the "truth". Gee, that sounds adventist-esk. If one wants "THE TRUTH". get it from this special source that I have...Or 'this is THE QUOTE to measure all other EGW quotes by...sheesh...

Let's put this into another perspective....

Drink from a polluted or medicated well and I promise that you will see things that you have never seen before....

Yeah, right...