Obedience? Or Salvation by Works?

[Gail]

Obedience? Or Salvation by Works?  What is the difference?

[Samie]

10 hours ago, Gail said:

Obedience? Or Salvation by Works?  What is the difference?

The difference lies in the foundation of one's belief. 

If one believes the teaching that people are born in sin, then people are born lost. And to be lost is to be NOT in Christ.  Hence, it follows that any obedience rendered by anyone is for him to be in Christ.  And that smells of salvation by works because UNLESS one puts in his share (obedience) of the deal (salvation), he cannot benefit from the deal.

On the other hand if one believes the teaching that people are born ALREADY in Christ, then that simply means people are born NOT lost, hence NOT born in sin.  Being born ALREADY in Christ,  part of His Body, we are on our way to heaven UNLESS Christ blots one's name from the book of life for NOT overcoming evil with good.  This is where OBEDIENCE comes in.  For example,  we obey the Scriptural command to BELIEVE, NOT to be in Christ because we already are, but to overcome the evil of unbelief so that our names will not be blotted out from the book of life and continually remain part of the Body of Christ.

[JoeMo]

4 hours ago, Samie said:

On the other hand if one believes the teaching that people are born ALREADY in Christ, then that simply means people are born NOT lost, hence NOT born in sin.  Being born ALREADY in Christ,  part of His Body, we are on our way to heaven UNLESS Christ blots one's name from the book of life for NOT overcoming evil with good.  This is where OBEDIENCE comes in.  For example,  we obey the Scriptural command to BELIEVE, NOT to be in Christ because we already are, but to overcome the evil of unbelief so that our names will not be blotted out from the book of life and continually remain part of the Body of Christ.

Hmmm ...

This is like deja vu' all over again.  Seems like there all already dozens of threads on CA where Samie has expressed this viewpoint over and over.  Hopefully this thread won't turn into another one.

I believe that there is a third choice - salvation by grace.

" For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— ⁹ not by works, so that no one can boast. ¹⁰ For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." (Eph. 2:8-10)

So ... God gives us grace - by which we are already saved - if we choose to embrace that grace.  By that grace we are then empowered to obey; and part of that obedience is doing the works that God has prepared for us who CHOOSE to believe.

[8thdaypriest]

2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

" For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— ⁹ not by works, so that no one can boast. " (Eph. 2:8-10)

My understanding is that "salvation by works" MEANS "salvation because of works".   God will "save" me IF I do enough good works.  

Obedience (of the Law), or obedience towards God - is simply one category of "good works".  It fits under the "works" category. 

The problem with this thinking, is that we cannot do ANY "good works".  Everything we try to do - in our own strength - is always contaminated with selfishness.  I think Isaiah said it well.  "All OUR righteousnesses are like filthy menstrual rags" (Isa. 64:6)  He couldn't think of anything more unclean.  I wish he had said leprous rags, but oh well.

WHEN we come to realize that we are absolutely helpless to do any "works" good enough to EARN salvation, we come to a crisis point.  We can "give up" and turn away from God, saying "This is impossible".  OR - we can "give up" and plead for God to live IN US.  When we "give up" (really give up) AND plead for God to do His good works - through us, that is when we see a wonderful change in our behaviors.  (That's the grace.)  But we can't claim the credit for them.  God get's the credit.  All we did was surrender. 

After THAT - the challenge is to stay out of HIS way.  We keep wanting to jump in - to "fight our way" into Canaan. 

I will tell you.  Giving up is scary.  It's like "falling backwards" hoping your partner will catch you.  But until you try it - with God, you cannot experience real victories in your life.  

I personally had to reach a point of total frustration, and actually feeling angry at God (telling me to be so "good" when He knew I couldn't be).   But reaching that breaking point, was the only way I would finally "let go".

The more victories you experience - by "letting go" - "turning it over" - "surrender" - "giving up", the easier it gets. 

 

[debbym]

i do love how the Lord stretches me to see Him as bigger and bigger, greater and greater, and merciful and loving yet concerned with every  particle of my being in thought, and action, and in just being.

 

He wants to bless me and my nature does not naturally seek Him or love Him, but he reaches me and touches and changes my desires in the most gentle and pure ways.

[Gregory Matthews]

Perhaps they are not  related.  i.e.  Perhaps salvation is outside of obedience.

[JoeMo]

3 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Perhaps salvation is outside of obedience.

I look at it this way - we obey through the power of grace because we are saved; we do not become saved and receive grace because we obey.  We were saved by grace so we can have the power to do good works (i.e., "obey").

[debbym]

 

the angels obeyed God from the heart.  they were not aware any law existed and do not frame their responses in the word obedience.  we learn new patterns of behavior by intentionally doing them, till it becomes habitual and spontaneous.  Habitually trusting in God is something that takes time.

 Jesus said, 
"²⁵ “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. ²⁶ I have made you^[e]known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

[Ron Amnsn]

Is there anywhere that the Bible rebukes obedience?

Modern Christians are so afraid of "legalism" that they have invented a category of obedience that is considered "bad".  Where in the Bible is any obedience to God for any reason whatsoever considered to be something not good?