A different spin on the 'if God is good why do bad things happen' debate

May 28, 2017

This is something that affects me personally that is why I will give a short intro...

Just a few months ago I was a regular church attendee, also taking active roles in the church, doing some personal ministries etc. Well I still do those things, but one thing has changed... I don't believe in the God from the Bible anymore.

Why don't I just leave the church? I'm in a position, where it would affect many church members especially some young people that I worked towards to stay in the church and I don't want for them to leave the church just because of me. Actually I'm waiting and hoping to get some new insight into the topic of this post, to see where my reasoning is lacking, so I might return to being a sincere follower again. That is also why I'm posting here, so I might get a spectrum of different views on this matter, but I would ask you to refrain from comments if my writing offends or angers you. Also keep in mind I know at least about the basics of the Adventist theology, so there is no need to explain to me the Great Controversy or other general topics. So here we go, if you're still reading. I'm setting up the comparison as such, because it's close to me for several reasons.

Sexually molesting children is a crime not just for the offender, but also for any person who is present and doesn't do anything to stop it or at least report it. If you're present in such circumstances your not violating the law, but you're also morally responsible, because you had the possibility to stop something atrocious, but you didn't. You can find support for such reasoning also in the Bible. (Mat 25:41-46, Isa 1:17; Isa 58:6-8 etc.)

Now, God in the Bible is presented as better as a parent (Isa 49,15), present everywhere (psa 139:7-12), knowing the outcome from the beginning (Isa 46:9-10), making anything possible (Mat 19, 26). There are other attributes to God in the bible, but I picked these to portray my point, which is: Someone is most likely raping a child right now, at this moment and God is present there and doesn't stop him/her.

I can't see that the God from the Bible, would refrain from stopping the act.

I think I wrote enough for now. Share with me your 2 cents.

May 28, 2017

Quote

Just a few months ago I was a regular church attendee, also taking active roles in the
church, doing some personal ministries etc. Well I still do those things, but one thing
has changed... I don't believe in the God from the Bible anymore.

That is also why I'm posting here, so I might get a spectrum of different views on this
matter,

Sometimes life can be depressing and there seems no way out of its difficulties.Happens to
everyone sooner or later, and if it doesn't, you need to ask what is wrong with you. The whole

problem seems to have three parts to it, but one of them seems to be more of a
Catholic tradition, and we may just call it depression. They are "dark nights of the
soul", "brass skies", and "nights of wrestling with angels".

When things seem so dark and you sink into melancholy or depression, it is akin to the
dark night of the soul. Some have reported it to go on for years, but reading Scripture
would indicate it need not be. For further reading into dark nights:

https://www.eckharttolle.com/newsletter/october-2011

http://www.christianitytoday.com/pastors/2015/february-online-only/3-truths-of-dark-night-of-soul.html

https://www.osv.com/OSVNewsweekly/Article/TabId/535/ArtMID/13567/ArticleID/17512/Understanding-the-‘dark-night-of-the-soul’-.aspx

Brass skies is a Biblical concept and some have compared it to the feeling of your prayers are
going nowhere. While it Deuteronomy, it seems to be a punishment for wandering away from
God, others have applied it to prayer.

And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee
shall be iron. Duet 28:23

http://agonizomai.blogspot.com/2005/09/doing-nothing-under-skies-of-brass.html

I suspect Jacob was in these emotional states when in despair, he wrestled with God. Seems
everyone will at some point wrestle with God over something you need to overcome.

http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/will-you-wrestle-with-god

Quote

Sexually molesting children is a crime not just for the offender, but also for any person
who is present and doesn't do anything to stop it or at least report it. If you're present
in such circumstances your not violating the law, but you're also morally responsible,
because you had the possibility to stop something atrocious, but you didn't. You can find
support for such reasoning also in the Bible. (Mat 25:41-46, Isa 1:17; Isa 58:6-8 etc.)

There are other attributes to God in the bible, but I picked these to portray my point,
which is: Someone is most likely raping a child right now, at this moment and God is
present there and doesn't stop him/her.

Your posting comprised two topics, one your feelings of alienation and then child
molestation. It seems that people believe that anything horrific absolutely requires that
God immediately put a stop to it. And it seems that sexually violating children currently
is the act most demand God immediately do something about. And further, if He does not
intervene, He is somehow responsible for the act. But do note that Jesus said, "... for he
maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on
the unjust. Matt 5:45 However, Satan also send evils acts on the just and the unjust. And
it is "win-win" for him. He gets to do his evil deeds and God gets the blame!

While sexual molestation is deemed to be an evil act, I would suggest that it is not the
worst thing that can happen to a child. Perhaps the behavior of those around the child and
their reaction can be even worse. But if you begin to build a hierarchy of evil acts, I
suspect there are many more terrible things that could happen and given a choice even a
child would take the molestation over the other. ONE example might be a child dying of
cancer, poisoned by chemotherapy and burned by radiation, with tubes out every bodily
opening both natural and "therapeutic". Which would you endure?

Keep in mind that someday, it will be no longer remembered. God will wipe away all tears
and how is this accomplished except thru removing it from even the memory? So, don't blame
God for the evil in the world. We as humans chose it and our children also suffer for our
choices.

June 10, 2017

Children are innocent. They don't understand. Therefore they should not be made to suffer - like adults - who can understand the forces at play.

You believe that God should at least protect children - from sexual abuse.

What other pain, should God protect children from? Pain from illness? Pain from war injuries? Pain from starvation? Pain from loss of a parent or caregiver?

There were little children inside Jerusalem, when the city was besieged, who starved right along with their parents.

Animals are also "innocent" . They certainly do not understand. Is it not cruel, that our God does not protect them from abuse, from starvation, from loss.

I have a very affectionate cat, who recently went through a bout of pneumonia. I took him to the vet who did X-rays and blood tests, and gave him repeated shots. And then we had to stuff pills down his throat. Now Oli didn't understand any of this. He just knew it hurt, and he just wanted to rest. He would hide from us when we got home, and stopped coming to sit on my lap. His whole personality changed, because - in his mind - he was being abused.

Did I cause Oli's pain? Was I selfish because I wanted to preserve my cat's continued existence? Should I have painlessly put him to sleep? (He HAS returned to health and is once again very affectionate.)

Well - God WANTS humanity's continued existence, and affectionate worship and companionship. Does that make God selfish? Some think so.

PAIN is PAIN - whatever the cause. We Christians believe that Satan is the cause, along with evil/selfish people. But God ALLOWED Satan continued existence, knowing the things he would most likely do. So - at least in my opinion - God IS (on some level) responsible for all the pain that Satan has caused (even if God allowed it for "good" reasons). God did not cause the pain. He allowed the pain. Should GOD be punished?

I would point out that God HAS suffered because of His actions. 1. He gave His only son to live as a human, to live in what we would today call "a third world country", and to be tortured until He died - by that same Satan/ with evil men. And 2. "In all their afflictions He was afflicted" (Isa 63:9). God FEELS our pain - with us. He FEELS our pain more intently than a mother feels the pain of her suffering child. To FEEL all the pain of all humanity - one would have to be divine, not to be wiped out of existence with that much suffering.

This world is so horribly messed up right now, that it is difficult sometimes to see evidence of God. And especially when we are in pain. Pain makes our world shrink. We focus on our pain, because that is what we FEEL - NOW! We tend to forget all the miracles of the past. We forget to compare our suffering with that of others. I personally have chronic migraines. I was also born with Chiari I malformation. God has not chosen - so far - to heal me of that affliction. I have a little note taped inside my prayer journal, for those days when I get too bogged down. "Would you rather be in a wheel chair, or have a colostomy, or have no hair from chemo, or be living in Syria?" You get the idea.

We will need a thousand years of healing, but I believe we WILL reach that perfect HEALED relationship with Our Creator.

June 10, 2017

Here's an interesting article I found on this:

The Problem of Evil: Why Doesn't God Stop Tragedy?

In a world controlled by an all-powerful God, why does the worst still happen?
Read more at http://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/the-problem-of-evil-why-doesnt-god-stop-tragedy.aspx

June 13, 2017

Perhaps you could read Harold Kushner's best selling book which addresses this topic directly?

The reason God does not intervene is because of the free will that He gives people to choose or reject Him. If He intervened then Free Will would be ended.

Yet God will intervene when Jesus Christ returns and people will be judged and others restored and so on.

July 16, 2017

I've read your comments with interest. Meanwhile I found the answer that I found satisfactory.

Thank you for your time.

July 16, 2017

In regard to the quote below:

I understand that in context the statement was supposed to relate to God standing by and not doing anything to stop the act.

However, I want to be very clear as to the civil issues that may be attached to the issue of molesting children:

* The civil responsibility that one may have will depend upon the civil law in the area where one is.

* In many situations today one might have a legal responsibility to report such and could face criminal sanctions if they did not report.

* In some situations one might have a civil responsibility to take action to stop the assault on the child.

Sexually molesting children is a crime not just for the offender, but also for any person who is present and doesn't do anything to stop it or at least report it. If you're present in such circumstances your not violating the law, but you're also morally responsible, because you had the possibility to stop something atrocious, but you didn't. You can find support for such reasoning also in the Bible. (Mat 25:41-46, Isa 1:17; Isa 58:6-8 etc.)

July 17, 2017

On 5/28/2017 at 0:22 AM, Čmrček said:

I think I wrote enough for now. Share with me your 2 cents.

8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour....1 Peter 5

12Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea; with great fury the devil has come down to you, knowing he has only a short time. ....Revelation 12

God is Love!~Jesus saves!

July 17, 2017

I was reading an article written by a Jewish man. I give a bit of it to you here:

why do bad things happen to good people?

It is true, notwithstanding the bad we occasionally see around us, that the God of the Bible is described as merciful and long-suffering, filled with righteousness and truth (Exodus 34:6). Equally confounding, at the end of the Six Days of Creation, we are told that God saw all that was done and "behold it was very good" (Genesis 1:31). Not just good, but very good.

Still, young children get multiple sclerosis and earthquakes cause buildings to topple and crush the innocent. The same God that streaks the sky with a rainbow of red at sunrise and produces the beauty of a flower must also be connected to these horrors.

Although we may see it as unfortunate, bad things happening to good people is consistent with the biblical description of God's role in the world. By chapter four, Cain has murdered Abel. According to the Bible, Abel was the good guy. God had accepted his special offering while rejecting Cain's run-of-the-mill sacrifice. God had the power to prevent Abel's murder but chose not to.

Isaiah hints at why: "I am the Eternal, there is no other. I make light and create darkness. I make peace and create evil" (Isaiah 45:6, 7). God, the infinite source of light, creates darkness by withdrawing some of the light. Similarly God, the infinite source of peace, creates evil by shielding a portion of the peace. The biblical definition of creation is the partial withdrawal of God's presence. God pulls back, and in so doing creates the universe with its laws of nature. For the most part, nature takes its natural course.

Only when events get way off course does the Bible recount that God steps in and overrides nature. A natural-looking world is an essential part of the biblical game plan of life, namely the exercising of our free will. "I call to you witness today the heavens and the earth, I have placed life and death before you, the blessing and the curse. Therefore choose life so that you may live, you and your progeny" (Deut. 30:19).

If humans are to have the will to choose freely, the world must look natural. A natural world has radiation which produces crippling mutations and earthquakes which crush the innocent.

The pain and tragedy of the Holocaust is so enormous and unfathomable. Why did it happen?

The bottom line is that we do not know why tragedy happens. In Exodus 33:13, Moses asks God, "Make Your ways known to me." This means that only one aspect of existence was still unknown to him. And which was that? The issue of "why bad things happen to good people." So what was God's answer? "This is the one thing that no human can ever comprehend." (see Exodus 33:20)

---------------------------------

I personally accept the principles in EGW's book "The Great Controversy". For me there are more logical answers in it to human suffering then elsewhere.

I'm convinced that sin grew in strength as the world progressed in years. The sending the great Flood caused children and babies to drown with the animals as well.

Who am I to judge the almighty God of creation? He is light and no shadow of darkness is in him. No sinfulness is to be attributed to his being. He is fully righteous and without fault. His motivations are pure and undefiled when dealing with us.

It is true, notwithstanding the bad we occasionally see around us, that the God of the Bible is described as merciful and long-suffering, filled with righteousness and truth (Exodus 34:6). Equally confounding, at the end of the Six Days of Creation, we are told that God saw all that was done and "behold it was very good" (Genesis 1:31). Not just good, but very good.

The pain and tragedy of the Holocaust is so enormous and unfathomable. Why did it happen?

The bottom line is that we do not know why tragedy happens. In Exodus 33:13, Moses asks God, "Make Your ways known to me."

July 17, 2017

Likewise, in the book of Job, Job asks over and over again, "why is this happening to me?" (Job 7:11-21; 9:14-24; all of Chapter 10 and throughout the rest of the book). Starting in Job 38, the Lord answers Job, basically asking who Job thinks he is to question God. God never really answers Job's question.

Jesus tells us "But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, ⁴⁵that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. (Matt. 5:44-45). Peter tells us "Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you.¹³But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. ¹⁴If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. ¹⁵If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler.¹⁶However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. (1 Peter 4:12-16)

aka has a great answer - God gave man a free will; and evil men freely choose to do evil. The "good" people suffer at the hands of the evil. Satan and his minions still govern on this planet.. Jesus may have won the right to rulership here; but He has not yet taken dominion of the planet; so the deeds of the evil ones still run amok. As long as we remain faithful to Jesus and trust Him to see us through anything, we will eventually have the eternal peace, joy, and rest that we so long for.

Is it easy? No! Why will the majority turn their back on Christ and worship the beast at the end of time? Because they cannot answer the question posed in this thread. So many people will grow weary and afraid of the increasing persecution and materialism that they will forsake the Lord and turn to the world because "how can a loving and omnipotent God allow the persecution and death of so many good people?" They will conclude that there is no loving and omnipotent God; and turn to the "god of the world" to end their pain. Does not God Himself tell us in both Daniel and Revelation the the church will be persecuted and overcome to the point of defeat before Jesus returns? This might be a "bad" thing; but at least we know what's coming.

I'm really concerned about those Christians who are committed to a pre-tribulation rapture (or "translation" as us good SDA's would say). When that doesn't happen and persecution and death becomes commonplace, will they in their disappointment turn away from God, like many did when Jesus didn't show up in 1844? Or will they remain faithful to God and double down on studying His Word for the answers, like some did back then? I pray that God will give me the strength and faith to lean on Him through thick and thin.

July 17, 2017

There are so many different causes and sources of suffering. The main cause of course, is that we are mortal and live in bodies of clay.

There are violent or oppressive activities by the minions of Satan. There are diseases and genetic disorders caused by our atmosphere letting in the rays that break down our DNA. Satan didn't do that directly - I don't think. There are diseases caused by our ignorance and stupidity (bad eating/smoking/etc.), or just greed (industries putting bad waste products into our food or water, or atmosphere). There are accidents.

Is the suffering always a TEST - to see if the sufferer will still serve God? What if the sufferer is a child? Then the parent is being tested?

July 18, 2017

10 hours ago, JoeMo said:

"aka has a great answer - God gave man a free will; and evil men freely choose to do evil. The "good" people suffer at the hands of the evil. Satan and his minions still govern on this planet.. Jesus may have won the right to rulership here; but He has not yet taken dominion of the planet; so the deeds of the evil ones still run amok. As long as we remain faithful to Jesus and trust Him to see us through anything, we will eventually have the eternal peace, joy, and rest that we so long for."

Yes, that's exactly how I see it. The miracle of the soul takes place when we move through our environment and view the goodness still around us.

July 18, 2017

I read a good book awhile back - "Healed without Scars". It was all about how we keep trying - in our own way - to heal our old wounds. We keep pulling the scab off. Everyone knows that pulling the scab off, will make it scar worse.

Reading the book, I came to realize something that I was doing - in my friendships - that came from old wounds. Without realizing it, I was repeating an old scenario, trying to make it turn out different, unconsciously trying to heal a wound left from my childhood, which was messed up by an alcoholic father, and a bi-polar mother, and severe bullying at a "church school".

The book explained that Christ is the ONLY HEALER. Only HE can heal those old wounds. No amount of trying on our part will bring healing. We cannot heal ourselves.

I throw this in to the discussion, because I was a sincere believer for 25 years BEFORE I read that book. It still took several years, for me to consciously amend some negative interpersonal habits. It's just that the book opened my eyes to the source of those behaviors, which seemed beyond my control.

Those of us who have suffered - from whatever cause - can serve to help others. The author of the book had been abused. I know this does not answer the question concerning why God ALLOWS the suffering.

I personally have suffered from chronic migraines for 45 years. I was also born with Chiari I malformation. I've never had a C1 vertebra, and after decompression surgery the posterior process of C2 is also gone. My neck is somewhat unstable, and is now showing a lot of degenerative changes. (I'm turning 69 on Friday.) And yes - it is painful. So I think I can honestly say that I have suffered both physically and emotionally. [Though nothing like being burned over 50%. Wow!!]

I can also say - without any doubt, that God exists. I have personally experienced many - couldn't be anything else but - miracles. The first of those miracles absolutely CHANGED me. When you KNOW - absolutely - that God exists, you do start to think in different terms. And as I began to ask HIM questions, of course - the question concerning all the PAIN came up rather quickly.

The clearest thing I can tell you, is that the pain does have a purpose. The pain is like awful chemo, or painful surgery to kill cancer. Yes - it is very painful. But it is necessary for a good outcome. And Jesus knows that He can heal our hearts and minds, as well as give us new immortal spiritual bodies. [I'm speaking of pain in general, being necessary for the universe of God to experience.]

When we are living in the earth made new, a hundred thousand years from now, let's say that I wonder why I have to follow a certain Law of God. I start wondering. I will immediately know why! Because I have FELT the pain that doing things without God, or in opposition to God, brings. I know what sin cost Jesus and the Father. The cross was only a revelation of the pain that God feels, as He experiences our pain. He feels our pain - with us. He would have to be infinite, to survive, absorbing all that pain.

July 18, 2017

Your question is a great one! and between you and God more than you and the church.

We all suffer the effects of Adam and Eve eating of the fruit of Good and Evil. They became knowledgeable in evil, and their descendants became even better at it. It is most sad when sorrow happens to children or other innocent parties.

It makes us all weep.

There is a promise:

Isaiah 58:12

Your people shall rebuild the ancient ruins; the foundations from ages past you shall raise up; “Repairer of the breach,” they shall call you, “Restorer of ruined dwellings.”

I think that it will get worse before it gets better. And then there will be no more. God will say, "Enough," and will restore those who have been tortured or broken. At the moment we have some brave humans who do God's work, but not enough.

July 18, 2017

5 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

PS. I have had over 50% of my body severely burned in a fire years ago, and it took seven years to have all the surgeries done. I used to think that I had reason to point at God, and say: "I am not interested in such a God that would allow this kind of thing to happen. If you are interested, later in this thread, i can give you a few details about how I have overcome that and now have what I consider to be a good, and getting better relationship with God. Please keep in touch.

While I know the depths of anguish are difficult to explain reasons for, when one realizes that at present satan is the god of this world, we can know where the pain originates. When one realizes that God's closest servants lost their lives to satan's control, the God Who is love knows how to redeem and deliver, with only the scars of Jesus remaining as a reminder of our amazing deliverance. In the meantime, we have this promise in which to cling.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose....Romans 8

God is Love!~Jesus saves!

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