Evolution is a Belief System

[Bravus]

This discussion around death prompted the following blog post:

Inhale - Love of Life/Exhale - Fear of Death

The existence of food chains/webs and incredibly well-adapted carnivores is certainly something that needs good explanations in a recent creationist belief system.

[bevin]

I think any system as complex as the universe will evolve complex biological systems that reproduce, interact, and die.

I think it is inherent in the complexity of the system.

In short, my guess is that God was faced with a choice - make a system complex enough to be interesting (which would inevitably lead to some concept of death) or make a system without it - which would be so simple as to be boring

/Bevin

[Nicodema]

So Bevin, there is no such thing as actual eternal life then? (For creatures like us, I mean -- and I'm talking duration, as in actually continuing, not some nebulous intangible subjective "quality of life" idea.)

[bevin]

That depends on God.

However a Creator powerful enough to make and sustain the universe that we see is more than powerful enough to

• recognize interesting life forms, and
• interact with them in various ways, and
• modify them and maintain them in such a manner that they never die, or are temporarily dead and then recreated

I certainly believe in such a God - but I can not point to a series of convincing experiments.

The Bible is the byproduct of a whole community of people who similarly had experiences that they could not scientifically prove. So is the Watchtower and the EGW writings and the Adventist Review and various other publications. Some of these writings seem to be more in accord with each other and with my understanding than others.

/Bevin

[Robert]

Quote:

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bevin said:

So both creationism and evolution require nature "red in claw and tooth".

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Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall graze together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; and dust shall be the serpent’s food. They shall do no evil or harm in all My holy mountain,” says the Lord.[New American Standard, 1977]

[Robert]

I'm impressed with your responses....

Rob

[Robert]

Quote:

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bevin said:

The Bible is the byproduct...

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Job 38:1 Then the Lord answered Job [and perhaps Bevin] out of the whirlwind and said, 2 “Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? 3 “Now gird up your loins like a man, And I will ask you, and you instruct Me!

“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding....

NASB

[bevin]

So, you can quote an ancient mystery play...

Whee.

/Bevin

[Nicodema]

Quote:

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bevin said:

That depends on God.

However a Creator powerful enough to make and sustain the universe that we see is more than powerful enough to

• recognize interesting life forms, and
• interact with them in various ways, and
• modify them and maintain them in such a manner that they never die, or are temporarily dead and then recreated

I certainly believe in such a God - but I can not point to a series of convincing experiments.

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Bevin, I hope you don't think I'm "needling" you. I'm not. I'm trying to understand how things look to you and how your mind works. So I have to ask, what does "Creator" mean to you? What is the point of believing in God if you accept evolution as fact? What does "Creator" look like to you as an evolutionist? I have to confess, I'm totally stumped here. I guess what I'm trying to say is what is the point of your belief in God in particular? Why do you bother with faith? What attraction does it hold for you? (sorry if that sounds rude, it's not meant to be, I just don't know how to phrase it!)

[Robert]

Quote:

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bevin said:

So, you can quote an ancient mystery play...Whee.

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Bevin,

I would like to ask you some questions…not to judge, but rather to understand your position:

1] Are you a believer in Jesus Christ, i.e., are you a Christian?

2] Do you accept the Bible as God's word to mankind through human instruments, but yet lead by the Spirit of God?

Thanks,

Rob

[Nicodema]

Quote:

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bevin said:

So, you can quote an ancient mystery play...

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OK now we're getting down to what I'm talking about here (or rather, was talking about in the other similar thread). So Job becomes just an "ancient mystery play" -- no more nor less "inspired" (useful for communication with the Divine One) than any number of other ancient mystery and/or morality plays? No better than, say, Aesop's fables or Mother Goose or Shakespeare?

So is there then no point to the Bible at all, no point to this particular collection of "mystery writings" above or beyond any other possible collection we could make? How about the Chaldean oracles, the Popul Vuh, the Bhagavad-Gita, or hey for that matter, Aradia or Liber 49?

And while we're at it, what about Jesus Christ -- is there anything really unique about Him, or was He just some itinerant Israeli preacher circa 27-31 AD? Are we just as well off without Him and with the Buddha? with Krishna? with Artemis and Pan? or hey how about Crowley, Blavatsky, Gurdjieff, et al?

Seriously, I want to know. Bevin who is Jesus Christ to you, specifically? Who is Yahweh? Who/What is "the Creator" -- to you?

(Edit: Like I said above, I'm not trying to "needle" you here -- not trying to harass, interrogate, or put you on trial in any way. I just want to understand how your mind works on these things.)