Socialized medicine at its finest

[Gary K]

In the following link British parents of a child with a most likely fatal condition are denied the right to take their child to the US for an experimental medical treatment for which they have raised the money to have done.  The child had been being treated in a UK hospital until the hospital said they couldn't do anything more for it.  So, the parents asked the hospital to release their child so they could take it to the US.  The hospital has refused and the courts have said the child's "right to die" is more important than its right to possibly live by the parents taking the child to the US for treatment. 

It is utter madness, but this is what you get when government thinks it is the final arbiter of life, health, and death.

http://www.theblaze.com/contributions/matt-walsh-courts-in-europe-have-sentenced-a-baby-to-death-this-is-socialized-medicine/

[lazarus]

It is poor argument to take one extreme case and use it to say a system does not work. I'm sure you would say that Sandy Hook proves that the second amendment should be abolished.

[CoAspen]

laz, where you been!

Missing your comments.

 

[bonnie]

2 hours ago, lazarus said:

It is poor argument to take one extreme case and use it to say a system does not work. I'm sure you would say that Sandy Hook proves that the second amendment should be abolished.

I have had hip and knee replacement. In Feb and March I had carpal tunnel surgery on both hands. Not extreme or unusual. Out of curiosity I checked other countries at the times of my surgeries as my surgeon had practiced in countries that have socialized medicine. He told me to be very thankful I lived in the US. I did not need a referral or the wait time involved in that,I simply called his office and made an appt for 2 days later. I was then scheduled for surgery.To wait as in Alberta for almost 30 weeks as the majority do or even the 7 weeks to three months median wait would have been hell on earth. Frankly I would have cheerfully gone thru labor and delivery without pain meds compared to the pain,numbness and burning 24/7 of carpal tunnel. The countries I looked up all had similar results. No thanks,when I need a surgeon for non extreme medical procedures I do not want to be put on a waiting list

Service/Procedure Summary

Carpal tunnel release is surgery to treat carpal tunnel syndrome. In this procedure a ligament in the hand is cut to allow more space for the nerve and tendons.

CONSULT

NOVA SCOTIA

90% of people served within ?

248 days

SURGERY

NOVA SCOTIA

90% of people served within ?

291 days

Instructions - Instructional text.

• Wait Times
• Wait Times by Surgeon
• Wait Times Trends

All Results Community Facility

• 90%
• 50%

Community	Facility	Consult Wait Time	Surgery Wait Time
Bridgewater	South Shore Regional Hospital	89 days	160 days
Dartmouth	Dartmouth General Hospital	131 days	159 days
New Glasgow	Aberdeen Hospital	192 days	122 days
New Waterford	New Waterford Consolidated	204 days	232 days
Kentville	Valley Regional Hospital	219 days	317 days
Antigonish	St. Martha's Regional Hospital	412 days	262 days
Amherst	Cumberland Regional Health Care Centre	---	---
Halifax	QEII Health Sciences Centre (All Sites)	---	---
Inverness	Inverness Consolidated Memorial Hospital	---	387 days
North Sydney	Northside General Hospital	---	---
Sydney	Cape Breton Regional Hospital	---

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[lazarus]

No links to sources Bonnie..

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/aug/25/gp-appointment-waiting-times-in-us-worse-than-nhs

 

In 2013, the healthcare foundation The Commonwealth Fund examined waiting times across 11 countries, including the US. It reported that in the US a quarter of adults surveyed (26%) said they waited six or more days for primary care appointments “when sick or needing care”. The figure for the UK was just 16%. The US also underperformed on same-day or next-day appointments compared with the NHS – 48% access versus 52%. According to Robin Osborn, a researcher at the foundation, longer-term comparative trend data over a decade (2003-2013) shows “dramatic” improvements in the NHS on waiting times, including for specialists.

[Gary K]

2 hours ago, lazarus said:

It is poor argument to take one extreme case and use it to say a system does not work. I'm sure you would say that Sandy Hook proves that the second amendment should be abolished.

Yeah, Sandy Hook is evidence that teachers and staff need to have weapons training and concealed carry.  Had that happened the death toll would have been greatly reduced.  Banning guns results instances like Sandy Hook, San Bernadino, the gay night club massacre in Florida, and places like Chicago where the gangs shoot at will and the law abiding citizens have to just cower and take it.  In the following link we see what an armed citizenry does to a bunch of outlaws.  Had those people not been armed the story would have been much different.  Today?  Those people would have charged with crimes.  That is how insane our society has become. 

Keeping guns out of the hands of law abiding citizens, for that is all control laws do, will not keep criminals from having guns.  If criminals obeyed the law they wouldn't be criminals because they wouldn't have broken the law to begin with.  They would still be classified as law abiding citizens.  But, that isn't what they are.

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/minnesotans-nearly-wipeout-the-james-younger-gang

[Gary K]

5 minutes ago, lazarus said:

No links to sources Bonnie..

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/aug/25/gp-appointment-waiting-times-in-us-worse-than-nhs

 

In 2013, the healthcare foundation The Commonwealth Fund examined waiting times across 11 countries, including the US. It reported that in the US a quarter of adults surveyed (26%) said they waited six or more days for primary care appointments “when sick or needing care”. The figure for the UK was just 16%. The US also underperformed on same-day or next-day appointments compared with the NHS – 48% access versus 52%. According to Robin Osborn, a researcher at the foundation, longer-term comparative trend data over a decade (2003-2013) shows “dramatic” improvements in the NHS on waiting times, including for specialists.

LOL.  Yeah, wait times are high now.  You know why?  Because tens of thousands of US doctors either retired or went out of business due to socialized medicine, i.e. Obamacare, as they could no longer make ends meet in their practices due to how Obamacare works.  The local clinic in the small town where I live has contracted in size by about 50% due ot Obamacare.  I used to walk into the clinic and get in either that day or in 1 or 2 days at most.  Now an appointment is at least a week to 2 weeks out to see a general practice doctor.  For an appointment with a specialist it is at least a  3 month wait now.  Never used to be like that until Obamacare went into effect.  

The doctors and nurses I have talked to all point to Obamacare as the cause of the problem. 

[bonnie]

1 hour ago, lazarus said:

No links to sources Bonnie..

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/aug/25/gp-appointment-waiting-times-in-us-worse-than-nhs

 

You are right. This is just something that out of curiosity I saved. If it is necessary I certainly could provide them.

I really don't believe that article across the board. I am sure there are area's where that may be true currently but there are reasons for that as Gary pointed out.

I have never had a serious wait time to see a primary care or a specialist. I make my own appts with specialists and deal directly with them. I know there are places that have lost a lot of primary care Dr's because of Obamacare as much as you may think that was the answer.

We do have a yearly tussle with medicare for my husband. He has a aortic heart valve aneurysm and they do not want to go good for a twice a year very extensive MRI. Once is enough as far as they are concerned. Because of the size being slightly over 5 cm he is monitored very closely. With  numerous health issues he is a very high risk candidate for surgery unless it is a immediate either or situation.How successful would we be in the type of care at age 76 in countries with socialized medicine?

When carpal tunnel became the problem it did,would I have gotten in to see a specialist within two days without a referral and have surgery scheduled as soon as I was able to have it done? I don't think so regardless of the article you posted.

I have many relatives that live in various parts of Canada. For some reason many of them come to the US for medical care by choice. I don't think it is because of the scenery or because of convenience. They come for elective but still necessary surgery for their comfort. Hip and knee replacement are very common reasons.

When I needed hip and knee replacement I would not have had any reason to go to Canada or another country for reduced wait time.I did have a family member that was considering having her replacement done in MN as she was having a difficult time finding a surgeon that was still willing to accept medicare in her area. When I saw my bill and what the hospital and Dr's were actually paid by medicare it is very easy to see why they are opting out.

 

[bonnie]

http://www.metronews.ca/news/toronto/2016/04/23/ontario-stem-cell-transplant-waiting-list-failed-dying-teen.html

Long but interesting..

News / Toronto

 

 

How Ontario's stem-cell transplant waiting list failed a dying teen

Laura Hillier was on the wait list for seven months and died waiting for a transplant.

 

 

CONTRIBUTED

Laura Hillier, 18, of Burlington, died in January of a form of leukemia considered curable. But doctors say the health-care system failed her by forcing her to remain on a wait-list for a stem cell transplant until it was too late.

By: Staff Torstar News Service Published on Sat Apr 23 2016

“Hello. I’m Laura Hillier.”

The voice of the 18-year-old girl cracks in distress. She’s propped up on a hospital bed, eyes swollen from crying, lips stained red from bleeding lungs.

“. . . I’m in the ICU . . . I can’t breathe. Soon, a tube will be stuck down my throat again. And for feeding as well. And I won’t be able to talk. They said I may not wake up but I really hope I do. But if I don’t, I hope this never happens to anyone ever again. And that the government sees that there needs to be funding. Because people are dying when we can save them. We can save these people. Please help. Thank you.”

Laura recorded these words, shared for the first time, because she thought they would be her last.

While her friends were graduating high school and settling in as freshmen at university, the Burlington teenager was getting a cruel lesson in the fatal shortcomings of Ontario’s health-care system.

Laura went to Juravinski Hospital in Hamilton expecting to get better, cured even. Yes, the acute myeloid leukemia that nearly killed her five years ago was back but it was beatable.

And she couldn’t have been in better hands. Her own physician, Dr. Irwin Walker, is a Canadian pioneer of the stem cell transplant procedure Laura thought she would receive but never did.

Instead, for seven excruciating months until her death on Jan. 20, the teenager bore witness to one of the province’s most devastating health-care secrets, and died trying to do something about it.

Laura was one of hundreds of Ontarians tacked to the bottom of a too-long wait-list for the transplant procedure — a wait-list most patients didn’t know existed.

What follows is a raw account of how a public health-care system we consider among the world’s best failed Laura and many other patients like her.

You will hear from her parents for the first time since their first-born daughter’s death about the extraordinary work they are doing to keep their promise to Laura that her death would not be in vain.

You will hear from doctors across Ontario who are finally speaking out publicly on how an essential cancer program — allogeneic stem cell transplantation, which rebuilds a patient’s immune system using donor cells — is on the brink of collapse.

In a letter obtained by the Torstar News Service, transplant program chiefs warn Cancer Care Ontario about:

• the “ethically not right” rationing of treatments that leaves patients dying on absurdly long waiting lists;

• about the program’s reliance on “medically unnecessary chemotherapy” to “buy time” until transplant beds became available; and

• about the “unseen victims” who could benefit from treatment but aren’t told of the option because referring physicians “tire of being turned down” for transplants.

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For years, doctors tried to follow the chain of command, they told Torstar — expressing their concerns to government agencies politely in letters and reports about the inevitable collision between “unprecedented demand” for the transplant procedure and inadequate resources.

They say they kept their patients in the dark about how bad things had gotten “because they already have enough misery and stress in their lives,” said Chris Bredeson, head of the blood and marrow transplant program at The Ottawa Hospital. “You try to protect them. Maybe that’s been a mistake.”

The health ministry approved more than $100 million in spending recently to redirect hundreds of patients who will probably die waiting for transplants in Ontario to hospitals in Cleveland, Buffalo and Detroit. More than 200 cases have been outsourced since September, yet only 19 patients have made it there so far.

One month after her 18th birthday in April 2015 — celebrated at an East Side Mario’s in Burlington with a few close high school drama-club friends and a movie-night sleepover — a flare shot up in Laura Hillier’s body, warning her something was terribly wrong again.

Rash, mild fever, throat pustules, mouth cankers, extreme fatigue, sore eyes, and tender, bleeding gums were some of the symptoms Laura’s mom, Frances, jotted down on a paper that would soon become part of a dense hospital diary.

The Hillier family had been lucky these past four years. Intensive chemo treatments for acute myeloid leukemia that brought Laura very close to death at age 13 — causing sepsis, a brain infection and permanent vision damage — also brought her into remission. She emerged from hospital brighter than ever, earning leading roles in a Burlington musical theatre group’s production of Mamma Mia and Les Misérables. She’d been a dramatic force on stage since she was 6, quitting ballet, she told Frances at the time, because “it’s not my groove.” She was heading to a provincial competition with her high school drama club when this blitz of sickness invaded.

“I feel like when I had cancer,” Laura confided to her mom.

Emergency room doctors at Juravinski Hospital sent her home two days in a row, saying she probably had infectious mononucleosis — the so-called kissing disease — even though the spot test for virus antibodies was negative.

A children’s oncologist at McMaster Hospital — where Laura was treated the first time — agreed to assess the teen, though, technically, she had aged out of the pediatric system. A bone marrow test confirmed Laura’s suspicion. Her cancer was back.

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Dr. Irwin Walker’s unofficial titles of “legend” and “pioneer” go back to 1988, when he became the first person in Canada to perform the first successful bone marrow transplant on a young family doctor from the Orangeville area using an unrelated donor found in a registry.

More recently, the 74-year-old stem cell transplant chief at Juravinski described himself as “a person who, for the last few years, has walked around with chronic rage.”

On May 12, 2015, a month before Laura was admitted to his hospital, Walker and four other transplant chiefs from across the province co-wrote a letter to Cancer Care Ontario begging the government agency to address what they were already calling a “crisis.”

“The net effect of growing wait-lists, patients relapsing and dying while waiting for a transplant, patients getting extra cycles of therapy to try and buy time to get them to a transplant, stress and burnout of transplant team members is a pan-provincial problem,” they warned. “The usual approach of working harder or shifting patients between centres or pushing patients out faster than ideal no longer allows us to get by.”

The hospital programs needed to increase capacity “by at least a third to perhaps as much as half” to eliminate backlogs and have “medically appropriate times to transplant.” By international standards, patients should have their transplant within two to three months of diagnosis. At Princess Margaret Cancer Centre, the wait was eight months.

“The alternative to near-term expanded resources will be a return to out-of-country referrals, a retrogressive practice that will cost more money than properly resourcing Ontario programs and will still result in numerous patients failing to get to transplant because of the long out-of-country referral process,” the letter continued.

Hamilton’s program at the time could provide about five transplants per month. When Laura arrived for treatment, more than 30 other patients were already waiting their turn.

Cancer Care Ontario, the government agency that directs and oversees about $1.5 billion in funding for hospitals, told Torstar it has doubled the funding directed to stem cell transplant programs to $19 million from $9 million in recent years.

“It’s not that we’ve not been doing any work,” said Robin McLeod, vice-president of clinical programs and quality initiatives. “It’s a complex disease. What we want to do is obviously decrease the wait-list. We’re just in the process of doing some funding models and capacity planning. Obviously, we’re working on that.”

The health ministry told Torstar that the government is investing in infrastructure to improve access to highly specialized stem cell transplantation programs.

Whether the money Cancer Care Ontario had targeted for stem cell programs was actually flowing into those programs is another question. Stem cell transplant chiefs at Princess Margaret, The Ottawa Hospital and Juravinski all told Torstar they’ve increased the volume of patients they’re treating without resources to match.

Dr. Hans Messner created Princess Margaret’s stem cell transplant program more than 40 years ago. In his 70s now, the hospital “dusted him off” recently from a three-month retirement to help fix the crisis.

“The big issue is that the funding has to be made available and soon,” he says. “I can tell you, for instance, we have worked very hard here to increase our transplant numbers by 25 per cent, without having any changes in our personnel. It’s not sustainable. Our transplanters, our nurses will burn out and that would make it worse.”

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So where have the dollars gone?

At Juravinski, “they were being put into the institution but not necessarily into the ward directly or into the oncology day services area or the specialized out-patient area,” explains Dr. Ralph Meyer, Hamilton Health Sciences’ vice-president of oncology and palliative care. He is also a regional vice-president of Cancer Care Ontario.

“They were being used to support activities that needed funding that included providing supports for transplant patients,” Meyer said, referring to the hospital’s emergency department, intensive care unit and operating rooms. “It’s not going to those services at the present time. We’re emphasizing the wards.”

Laura’s mother, Frances, realized something wasn’t right at Juravinski when a nurse practitioner assigned to Laura talked about starting “consolidation” chemotherapy. The first round of chemo had done its job. By early July, the hospital had found a donor and her cancer was in remission, which is where she needed to be to get on the transplant list.

Hillier said it wasn’t until after much pressing that staff admitted the “consolidation” chemotherapy was medically unnecessary; that it was common practice across Ontario used to buy time until a transplant bed was available.

Once a donor had been found, the Hilliers learned it could be six months before Laura’s turn came in the transplant line.

“You’re rolling the dice with these patients,” Laura’s dad, Greg Hillier, says. “It’s unconscionable.”

The Hilliers and Walker appealed to SickKids, which provides stem cell transplants and has no waiting list. Because Laura was 18, the hospital had to obtain special permissions to provide her a transplant bed.

As per hospital protocol, Sick Kids would also have to redo all the tests required to match her with a donor, adding weeks or months to the process.

Laura decided to use the time and what little strength she had to get out the message that hospitals, the health ministry and Cancer Care Ontario seemed so reluctant to publicly share. With Frances at her side, Laura committed to an exhausting schedule of nearly a dozen media interviews. At the end of July, the Hilliers learned that Sick Kids had agreed to accept Laura as a patient.

In August, Sick Kids suggested Laura undergo more but milder chemo as the donor that was lined up wasn’t available for a few more weeks.

By mid-September, Sick Kids confirmed the donor was “lost,” but provided no explanation, Frances said.

Despite the string of setbacks, Laura remained hopeful.

She was thinking about university. Brock agreed to defer her admission until the following year and honour her $16,000 scholarship. She was also thinking about being a mom one day. She wanted to freeze her eggs since any more chemo would likely destroy her reproductive system. Just after Thanksgiving, a fertility specialist retrieved 13 viable eggs.

There was no time to celebrate. Doctors confirmed the cancer was back; this time the diseased cells had mutated and become stronger.

By November, 80 per cent of the cells in Laura’s bone marrow were leukemic.

Walker told the family Laura would die “within days.”

TORSTAR NEWS SERVICE

Greg Hillier holds a picture of his deceased daughter Laura, with his wife Frances and daughter Heather, 13, at their Burlington home, March 30, 2016.

She was transferred to Juravinski’s intensive care unit. Frances slept on a window bench while hospital staff transfused blood products and other drugs into Laura to stem the uncontrolled bleeding in her lungs.

“I am not going to die,” Laura told Walker. “You’re a smart man, you go figure this out.”

But Laura knew the prognosis was grim.

Before her second intubation within two weeks, aware it might be her last chance to speak, Laura asked to have a few minutes to record two messages. The first, a goodbye to her little sister, Heather. The second, a clip for the media.

In July, Frances sent letters to Premier Kathleen Wynne and Health Minister Eric Hoskins on behalf of Laura and every other patient subjected to the “cruel, inhumane and potentially deadly” waiting times for stem cell transplants. Neither Wynne nor Hoskins replied, Frances says.

Miraculously, Laura recovered after the second intubation, but she was worse for the wear.

“She’s hanging on by her fingernails,” Walker says.

Walker had found a hospital trial in Duarte, Calif., that performed stem cell transplants on patients who were not in remission.

The hospital, City of Hope, agreed to take Laura if Walker could stabilize her for the trip.

On Christmas Eve, for the first time in weeks, Laura pushed herself to stand. She returned to the fourth-floor transplant ward to celebrate the new year.

With damaged abdominal organs and a weak heart, Laura still saw a way through the hell.

But in the nine days it took to finalize her hospital discharge papers and health ministry approval for the California transplant, Laura’s condition deteriorated.

The morning she was scheduled to fly to City of Hope, she awoke with a terrible migraine. Tests showed her brain was bleeding. Walker ordered a new chemo drug as a desperate measure to fight the mutating cancer but it didn’t help.

Laura went into cardiac arrest at 7 a.m. on Wednesday, Jan. 20, 2016. She died three hours later.

Two weeks after Laura’s funeral, Frances and Greg got to work, calling up doctors, health-care staff and hospital administrators across the province to talk about what went wrong.

“We made a promise to our daughter to get this fixed,” Greg says.

One of their first questions to the transplant program physicians: “How on earth did you let it get this bad?”

“We had someone say to us, ‘We were really waiting for a family to go public and say something.’ And I think, ‘Oh my God, what abject failure on their part. How shameful that you’re waiting for the patients that are having to go through this hell to be the ones to change your problem.’ ”

Next Wednesday, the Hilliers are scheduled to meet with Dr. Michael Sherar, president and CEO of Cancer Care Ontario. They will focus on key areas for immediate, transformative change.

“We want accountability and measures for transparency,” Frances says. For starters, Cancer Care Ontario should begin tracking and disclosing wait times for transplants. Also, the public should know how many people die before getting to transplant. Adequate and immediate resources should be made available to boost operational costs, including staffing of stem cell transplant programs and even more basic acute leukemia services, where patients are now waiting weeks to begin their first round of chemotherapy.

“That is a potential death sentence,” Frances says.

“They say they can’t afford to fund these things in Ontario. Do you know how much money Laura cost the system because they didn’t do her transplant? Five rounds of infections, seven weeks in ICU, one-on-one nursing, countless imaging scans and bone marrow biopsies.

“They need to stop planning and start moving.”

Ontario cancer docs beg ministry agency for help

In a letter obtained by the Torstar, five stem cell transplant directors from across Ontario lay out the life-and-death crisis for Cancer Care Ontario. Dr. Irwin Walker, one of the physicians behind the memo, said Cancer Care Ontario failed to acknowledge the problems until Burlington teenager Laura Hillier, one of hundreds of cancer patients waiting for transplant, took her concerns to media in July 2015.

 

[bonnie]

Can you provide a link showing the US giving. 100 million dollars to Canada to outsource our medical care because we lackxthe beds? Perhaps it has happened but I would like to see a link if possible

[CoAspen]

Ah, yes...lets return to the days of the wild, wild west. So romantic, so safe!! Hmmmmm, wonder why they started changing the laws, hireing safety forces, sheriffs, marshals, etc. Truly makes one wonder why they gave up all that safety so 'outlaws' could kill more people. I know, conspiracy...way back then is when it all started, yes indeed!!!

Quote

 Banning guns results instances like Sandy Hook, San Bernadino, the gay night club massacre in Florida, and places like Chicago where the gangs shoot at will and the law abiding citizens have to just cower and take it.

Guns have not been banned, as suggested, just controls to make sure the right people own them. But what the hey, never let facts get in the way of a guns purpose, to kill! 

[Gary K]

3 hours ago, CoAspen said:

Ah, yes...lets return to the days of the wild, wild west. So romantic, so safe!! Hmmmmm, wonder why they started changing the laws, hireing safety forces, sheriffs, marshals, etc. Truly makes one wonder why they gave up all that safety so 'outlaws' could kill more people. I know, conspiracy...way back then is when it all started, yes indeed!!!

Guns have not been banned, as suggested, just controls to make sure the right people own them. But what the hey, never let facts get in the way of a guns purpose, to kill! 

 

If your premise is correct, that gun laws make sure only the right people have guns, why do criminals have guns in the most restrictive gun control cities/states in the US?  

Why did the Aurora, Colorado shooter choose the movie theater that he chose?  There was a much larger theater within a very short drive from his home.  Why didn't someone who wanted to kill as many people as possible choose the largest theater?  That theater was not a gun-free zone.  Concealed carry was allowed there.  Other theaters in the area also allowed people with concealed carry permits to wear their guns inside.  The one theater that did not allow concealed carry permit holders to take their weapons inside?  That was the site of the shooting.  Do you really think that is coincidence?  The one gun-free zone theater in the area and it is chosen for mass murder. 

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/09/10/did-colorado-shooter-single-out-cinemark-theater.html

And just how many mass shootings happen in gun-free zones?  The following link explores this in great detail.

https://crimeresearch.org/2014/09/more-misleading-information-from-bloombergs-everytown-for-gun-safety-on-guns-analysis-of-recent-mass-shootings/

[CoAspen]

You don't ansewer the basic premise of my question, but that is not unusual by supporters of open gun/armed persons. Why did we go from everybody armed at all times to one of control? A simple question. Life is full of coincidence and that is what feeds conspiracies.

Sorry, but I equate the journalism of Fox News to the National Enquirer.

Your premise that an armed group of people are safer than an unarmed group is not well thought out. There are not stats to support such, just rhetoric. What happens when two armed persons get into an argument? Think one or the other if not both is going to use their weapon if things escalate? (World Wars) (Wild West). You really want to hang our with a group of peoploe where some are armed and some are not? An armed and fireing person approaches and bullets start flying. Do you honestly think the possibility that less people will be injured or die with all that adrenaline fueled chaos? 

I would suggest that their is a large crowd of people that think/feel the USA is a very unsafe country and they must protect themselves at all time by having a gun. In essence that would be claiming that countries that have had much stronger gun control laws, for a long time such as GB, are less safe. Well, were are the stats to support that premise.

This country is only 200+ years old and we have a long way to go when it comes to giving up our love affair with guns. New kid on the block that came to dominate in the world. That is quite an ego boost. Weapons of mass destruction have helped to accelerate that domination. It is of little surprise that the populace would have the same feelings. Not all gun owners see owning guns as the end all to be all. I am speaking about those that use fear rhetoric, coincidences and other means to inflame the gun debate. We are guaranteed the right to own firearms but with that comes responsibility, not only in use but also in thought and action. I see next to none of that thought and action when it comes to the pro-gun for all rhetoric. There is no proof that an armed public is a safer public, else we would never have gone to controls. 

This is not a new debate and it usually just goes round and round with out resolution, so these are my thought and last words. Have fun !!

[lazarus]

15 hours ago, Gary K said:

LOL.  Yeah, wait times are high now.  You know why?  Because tens of thousands of US doctors either retired or went out of business due to socialized medicine, i.e. Obamacare, as they could no longer make ends meet in their practices due to how Obamacare works.  The local clinic in the small town where I live has contracted in size by about 50% due ot Obamacare.  I used to walk into the clinic and get in either that day or in 1 or 2 days at most.  Now an appointment is at least a week to 2 weeks out to see a general practice doctor.  For an appointment with a specialist it is at least a  3 month wait now.  Never used to be like that until Obamacare went into effect.  

The doctors and nurses I have talked to all point to Obamacare as the cause of the problem. 

Wait times were increasing long before ACA

How about the cap on doctors in training imposed in 1997?

How about the fact that more people are being treated because of ACA? More people, longer waits!

Wait times are longer in universal health care systems but health outcomes are better.

[lazarus]

Personal anecdotes are important and informative but not enough to make policy or form the basis for a good argument.

[lazarus]

9 hours ago, Gary K said:

 

If your premise is correct, that gun laws make sure only the right people have guns, why do criminals have guns in the most restrictive gun control cities/states in the US?  

 

People who live in the least restrictive states buy them for them.

[lazarus]

EL PASO, Texas (Reuters) The mayor and police chief of a small town on the U.S.-Mexico border were among 11 suspects indicted for allegedly trafficking around 200 guns to Mexico, authorities said on Thursday.

The U.S. Attorney's office in New Mexico said the mayor of Columbus, Eddie Espinoza, the town's police chief Angelo Vega, and village trustee Blas Gutierrez were among those arrested on an 84-count indictment.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-mexico-guns-idUSTRE72A0BR20110311

From 2009 to 2014, more than 73,600 guns seized in Mexico were from the United States, according to a 2016 report from the Government Accountability Office, the congressional watchdog over the federal government. More than 13,600 were confirmed by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives to have originated in Texas. But that figure could be higher — the report also states that because of factors like altered serial numbers on weapons and incomplete information on records, the states of origin could only be traced for about 45 percent of the U.S. total.

https://www.texastribune.org/2016/12/07/gun-running-bsp-part-4/

In fact, I-95 is so notorious for gun trafficking, it's called the "Iron Pipeline." Guns from Florida and Georgia head north to be sold for big bucks in states with stricter gun laws.

http://www.news4jax.com/news/investigations/i-team-exposes-massive-gun-smuggling-operation

[lazarus]

Gun crime is very low in the UK because access to guns is very restricted. its that simple. Why are terrorists using knives? Cars?