No evil in heaven

[Gail]

Nahum 1:9 says that affliction shall not rise the second time. In heaven, how will this happen? 

[Gregory Matthews]

For one:  Evil will have been removed form our lives.

 

[8thdaypriest]

This is difficult to imagine.  When I consider my own mind - as it presently is - so subject to subtle lack of trust, temptations, jealousies, short temper, wanting to get even, score keeping, etc. etc. etc.  How can I suddenly - in an instant, be transformed into a being without a single selfish thought or inclination.  Will God use the instant "Easy Button" to change the way my brain works?  That doesn't seem like something HE would do, considering how this whole terrible painful process has allowed for "free will" (which means no Divine manipulation),  I think it more likely that we humans will spend a thousand years in the Holy City psyc rehabilitation Hospital/University - until we are completely healed of the effects of sin, and until we understand the why's and wherefore's of God's interaction with the earth and the human race through its history.   We will then be ready to return to earth - to rebuild.

Another thing. . .

The Sanctuary was a representation of "Heaven itself".  Correct?  ONLY priests could enter the Tabernacle.  Which means that those who enter "Heaven itself" must BE priests.

[Gregory Matthews]

I have never before heard anyone suggest that the Sanctuary was a representation of  Heaven itself.  I can not think of anything in the Bible that would support such.

I have only heard that it was something that it existed in Heaven.

 

[debbym]

I suspect with increased physical powers of mind and heart,  with eternal bodies we would have a greater capacity to learn and comprehend the whole story of the inception of sin and it's cost to everyone.  I believe we will so understand that it is the goodness and mercy of God that we are there,  and how we are unworthy of all the blessings we are receiving, and we will see the nature of evil to destroy everything that is good, even to destroy the Son of God if possible.

So I imagine,

We will have 1000 years with incredible capacity to learn and love and understand... and we will be prepared to witness the physical destruction of sin and sinners, and it will all add up to a universe that will never entertain evil again.

[8thdaypriest]

14 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

I have never before heard anyone suggest that the Sanctuary was a representation of  Heaven itself.  I can not think of anything in the Bible that would support such.

I have only heard that it was something that it existed in Heaven.

 

NET  Hebrews 9:24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with hands – the representation of the true sanctuary – but into heaven itself, and he appears now in God's presence for us.

NIV  Hebrews 9:24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence.

[Gregory Matthews]

I have never before heard of anyone associating those texts with the idea that the Sanctuary was a representation of heaven itself.  

Personally, I would not suggest such is inferred by those texts.

 

[8thdaypriest]

15 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

If one were to make it to that 1000 year party; I doubt any rehabilitation" would be required.

We spend our whole lives thinking defensively.  We know that we cannot trust other human beings.  They fail us. They hurt us.  They disappoint us.  We put locks on our doors.  How are we suddenly - in an instant - to think differently?  I believe it will take time to heal all the wounds, and the damage that sin has wrought. 

Many people have died when they were babes in the Word,  just recently converted to Jesus Christ.  Even "seasoned" believers will admit they still need forgiveness quite often.  I personally do not believe we will reach "perfection" until we experience the fullness of the New Covenant.  And that fullness is not experienced UNTIL we are returned to the land.

I used to beat myself up over the whole "perfection" doctrine, believing that I had to become "perfect" so that Jesus could return.  I wondered why the LORD did not fulfill his promise to make us perfect.  I thought I was lacking in faith somehow.  An old friend told me to read Ezekiel 36 : 23-28, looking for WHEN the New Covenant is fulfilled.  

Ezekiel 36:23 "And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD," says the Lord GOD, "when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. 24 "For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 "Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God." (NKJ)

This is the SAME covenant referenced in Hebrews 8:10, and Jeremiah 31:31-33.  And it is fulfilled for Israel redeemed AFTER she is returned to "the land". 

When do we "return to the land"?   Answer:  AFTER the return of Christ and AFTER the desolation of the 7th millennium.

I no longer believe that most will be "perfect" before the return of Christ in glory.  They will be "perfect" in the eyes of God, only because they are covered with Christ's righteousness.  Perhaps the 144,000 WILL reach a state of faith and relative spiritual perfection, but that remains to be seen.  

I have turned my "perfection" over to Jesus.  I don't worry about it any more.  My perfection is His job.  My job is to believe in Him. 

 

 

[Gail]

Actually, I do agree with Rachel in that Revelation uses sanctuary language in portraying God's throne, and that the earthly sanctuary was an illustration of the true.

Thanks for all the feedback! Great stuff!  

Will affliction not rise the second time because God has taken away our choice to sin? If that is the case it no longer seems like free will.

Or, like Deb has alluded to, is it now because we are no longer seeing only in part but face-to-face, as 1 Cor 13 puts it?

[Gail]

I like the comment about our selfish nature. I have thought of that, too. What would that FEEL like to be free of that? It seems like currently I am so attached to it!

[Gail]

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

Use of "sanctuary language" is seen throughout the Bible. Its usually a mistake to equate the heavenly with the earthly, for they were never intended to be exactly the same.

Who's equating? The verses she quoted states, "a copy," or, "a representation." In Moses day it was a "pattern".

But that is besides the point. This topic is about how it could be that sin (affliction) will not rise the second time.

[CoAspen]

After having been through the results of sin/evil and being restored to a before fall body and mind, I would suspect that no desire is left to choose that path. I do believe knowledge of such will exist, we will still have free choice. I am not one who believes that our minds will be 'wiped' clean of the past, we have just learned from it!

 

[B/W Photodude]

The Sanctuary message is a very important message and is an important part of SDA beliefs. One verse from Daniel regarding the cleansing of the sanctuary is one that has very much been "owned" by the SDA church while at the same time being very much ignored by all other Christian faiths. Yet we hear very little about the Sanctuary or of the message of the Sanctuary. You can ask around to all of your acquaintances and ask when the  last time they heard a sermon on the Sanctuary at church. Most, I have not come across any, will not remember having heard a sermon regarding the Sanctuary. Most contemporary discussion regarding it draws a line after the alter in the outer courtyard and little in Christianity today has much to say about what happens in the Tabernacle.

Regarding the Sanctuary in Heaven, there is no building there known as the Sanctuary!

[aka]

13 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Regarding the Sanctuary in Heaven, there is no building there known as the Sanctuary!

 

On 9/10/2017 at 6:58 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

I personally do not believe we will reach "perfection" until we experience the fullness of the New Covenant.  

I no longer believe that most will be "perfect" before the return of Christ in glory.  They will be "perfect" in the eyes of God, only because they are covered with Christ's righteousness. 

 

That's the right way of believing. It's also how I see the matter.

.....And there's another matter. 

The saints spend the Millennium in heaven. Their "reign" is limited to judging the wicked dead. That's part of SDA teaching. The righteous will be there thousand years of reading constantly the sins that each one had done in their lives. That is the sins of the non-believers in Christ. Just for the sake of proving God was just in not taking them to heaven. Nowhere in my bible have I every read such a plan that awaits us when Jesus comes for us righteous ones. The saints will be auditors, not kings , apparantly. They will be according to SDA mentality judge and jury for the unsaved dead. Not reigning as priests and kings.  Apparently Adventists do not have much faith in God's ability to judge, since they see themselves spending 1,000 years going over the records so that they can assure themselves and the rest of the watching universe that God was fair. That does not sounds like much of a reign! Rather, this 1,000-year audit sounds like a huge waste of time!

[B/W Photodude]

1 hour ago, aka said:

The saints spend the Millennium in heaven. Their "reign" is limited to judging the wicked dead. That's part of SDA teaching. The righteous will be there thousand years of reading constantly the sins that each one had done in their lives. That is the sins of the non-believers in Christ. Just for the sake of proving God was just in not taking them to heaven. Nowhere in my bible have I every read such a plan that awaits us when Jesus comes for us righteous ones. The saints will be auditors, not kings , apparantly.

Perhaps you should rethink what being made a king means. In the days of the Bible, kings were judges. In fact, there seemed to be multiple levels of kings like there are multiple levels of judges today. Paul appealed from one judge to the next until he got to the "supreme judge" (Ceaser). And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Rev 1:6

I tend to believe that the priestly ministry of the saints will end with the second coming. There will be no more intercession. But today, we are to be priests unto the world, interceding for those who at various degrees are "lost". If we do not share that priestly burden that Jesus has for the lost, then we do not know Jesus and are not saved ourselves.

[8thdaypriest]

20 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Regarding the Sanctuary in Heaven, there is no building there known as the Sanctuary!

I agree.  The whole of "Heaven itself" and the work of Christ there, was portrayed by the small tented Sanctuary on earth.

[8thdaypriest]

3 hours ago, B/W Photodude said:

Perhaps you should rethink what being made a king means. In the days of the Bible, kings were judges. In fact, there seemed to be multiple levels of kings like there are multiple levels of judges today. Paul appealed from one judge to the next until he got to the "supreme judge" (Ceaser). And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Rev 1:6

I tend to believe that the priestly ministry of the saints will end with the second coming. There will be no more intercession. But today, we are to be priests unto the world, interceding for those who at various degrees are "lost". If we do not share that priestly burden that Jesus has for the lost, then we do not know Jesus and are not saved ourselves.

During the period before Israel had a king, the priesthood was the government.  Besides offering sacrifices, they taught the Law, mediated disputes, passed judgment, etc.   I believe the redeemed will become priests, and will reign on the earth OVER "the nations" resurrected after the 7th millennium.  "The rest of the dead" will make up these nations.  Those will be people who died in ignorance, or immaturity (childhood), or with some mental disability that prevented choice.    They could not CHOOSE to serve Christ, or believe in Him. 

I believe those who lived in open rebellion against the LORD (without repentance) will face judgment and then death at the second coming.  The BEAST and the False Prophet are "thrown alive into the Lake of Fire" at the second coming.  They are done and gone.  The BEAST is not just one person.  It is a worldwide entity that fights against the LORD and His people.   According to Daniel 12:2-3, many of those resurrected at the SC are raised to "shame and everlasting contempt".   If the LORD resurrects MANY to judgment at the SC, why would He resurrect them AGAIN after the 1000 years just to execute them AGAIN?? 

 

[8thdaypriest]

"By beholding we become changed."  Why would we spend the millennium in heaven going over the sins of the lost.  It would be like watching crime movies for a thousand years.  YUK! 

The 24 Elders say they will be priests and kings ON THE EARTH, and will reign for 1000 years.   That's the 8th millennium - NOT the 7th. 

Why would we reign in Heaven?  That is where the Father reigns. 

Christ will reign on the earth, and the redeemed will reign with Him - OVER "the nations". 

At the END of that reign, Jesus will become subject to His Father (I Cor 15:24).

[JoeMo]

On 9/10/2017 at 7:52 PM, Gail said:

This topic is about how it could be that sin (affliction) will not rise the second time.

After more than 67 years of life, I have no answer for this. I can't even imagine a world (or universe) completely devoid of any evil ever again.  Never another derogatory comment?  Never a word spoken in anger? Never one of the "multitude who could not be counted" envying a member of the 144,000?  Never any gossip about "how did HE/SHE make it to the Kingdom"?  It's impossible for me to even imagine that this is possible.  But God said it would happen; and it sure would be nice!  I'm looking forward to it with great curiosity and anticipation!

[Kevin H]

There is no evil in heaven because we would have learned our lesson. The unfallen (and for that matter the fallen) made their final decisions by the cross. Humans are still learning. We will have a oneness of the opposites of evil being an option, but one we have had our fill of. I have a sensitivity to many dairy products except for plain (including flavored) milk/ice cream and a couple of mild cheeses melted. But all other dairy can cause me all types of upsets. Thus I do not want to experience what they do to me again. Even though I'm free to buy and eat yogurt, sour cream, buttermilk, cheddar cheese, I know what they do to me and I will not knowingly buy and eat them.

In the same way we know what sin does. We have seen Satan's deceptions answered. We will be no more eager to choose rebellion that I would buy those dairy products for my enjoyment.  

[Kevin H]

On ‎9‎/‎9‎/‎2017 at 9:32 PM, Gregory Matthews said:

I have never before heard anyone suggest that the Sanctuary was a representation of  Heaven itself.  I can not think of anything in the Bible that would support such.

I have only heard that it was something that it existed in Heaven.

 

Sometimes we can be surprised by each other. In studying the ancient cycles (see for example "Before Philosophy" 1946 university of Chicago press) the ancient world saw things overlapping. We think in terms of time lines. We are here and therefore not there. It is now so it is not then. But to the ancients it can be now and then, here and there at the same time. This is what the day-year principle stands on and the Investigative Judgment.

The Hebrews came to the reed sea it parted they made it through safely. They were both escaping from Egypt, yet also at the end of the world where evil destroys itself. When we are baptized we are in the baptismal tank or other body of water, but also with pagans who had their understanding of a god of life getting the victory over the sea monster. We are with the children of Israel crossing the red sea, and the Jordan river,  we are with John the Baptist on the Jordan, especially on that special day of atonement when he beheld the lamb of God who scapegoats the sins of the world. i

The Hebrews came to the promised land. The spies gave their report. Two supported the crossing over but the people decided not to cross over. They went into the wilderness for time to cycle around again to were they are right back where they started, spies giving their report but this time around they people decide to cross over. They cross the waters of destruction again, but also are being baptized in the Jordan with Jesus. 

Sanctuaries and temples were on the sacred mountain. They were full of plants and trees and designs of beautiful plants trees and animals and colors. When you were in the sanctuary you were also in Eden and you are learning about God as Adam and Eve were, and  you were in Eden restored.

Back in the Desmond Ford issue some of our scholars looked at Bible texts to see if they were talking about the earthly or heavenly sanctuary/temple. There were a couple where they could say was one or the other, but the majority of texts they simply did not know. That is because to the ancient mind they believed that if you were in one you were in the other.   

[phkrause]

On 9/12/2017 at 6:21 AM, aka said:

The saints spend the Millennium in heaven. Their "reign" is limited to judging the wicked dead. That's part of SDA teaching. The righteous will be there thousand years of reading constantly the sins that each one had done in their lives. That is the sins of the non-believers in Christ. Just for the sake of proving God was just in not taking them to heaven. Nowhere in my bible have I every read such a plan that awaits us when Jesus comes for us righteous ones. The saints will be auditors, not kings , apparantly. They will be according to SDA mentality judge and jury for the unsaved dead. Not reigning as priests and kings.  Apparently Adventists do not have much faith in God's ability to judge, since they see themselves spending 1,000 years going over the records so that they can assure themselves and the rest of the watching universe that God was fair. That does not sounds like much of a reign! Rather, this 1,000-year audit sounds like a huge waste of time!

That's not my understanding and as far as I recall, have never been taught this. From what I've been taught, is that the 1000 years is for us to get answers as to why family members, friends, etc., are not there!! Also to be able to seek out those we've read about in the Bible, and of course talk to Jesus, and ask those questions that have bothered us for so long.

[JoeMo]

11 hours ago, phkrause said:

From what I've been taught, is that the 1000 years is for us to get answers as to why family members, friends, etc., are not there!!

Can you provide a scriptural reference for this?  As far as I know, this is only proclaimed exclusively in the writings of EGW.

[8thdaypriest]

On 9/11/2017 at 2:11 PM, B/W Photodude said:

The Sanctuary message is a very important message and is an important part of SDA beliefs. One verse from Daniel regarding the cleansing of the sanctuary is one that has very much been "owned" by the SDA church while at the same time being very much ignored by all other Christian faiths. Yet we hear very little about the Sanctuary or of the message of the Sanctuary. You can ask around to all of your acquaintances and ask when the  last time they heard a sermon on the Sanctuary at church. Most, I have not come across any, will not remember having heard a sermon regarding the Sanctuary. Most contemporary discussion regarding it draws a line after the alter in the outer courtyard and little in Christianity today has much to say about what happens in the Tabernacle.

Regarding the Sanctuary in Heaven, there is no building there known as the Sanctuary!

And "Heaven itself" is not divided into two "rooms" or "apartments".  The two "apartments" illustrate a long mediation phase followed by a short judgment phase.   

[8thdaypriest]

On 9/12/2017 at 5:21 AM, aka said:

The saints spend the Millennium in heaven. Their "reign" is limited to judging the wicked dead. That's part of SDA teaching. The righteous will be there thousand years of reading constantly the sins that each one had done in their lives. That is the sins of the non-believers in Christ. Just for the sake of proving God was just in not taking them to heaven. Nowhere in my bible have I every read such a plan that awaits us when Jesus comes for us righteous ones. The saints will be auditors, not kings , apparantly. They will be according to SDA mentality judge and jury for the unsaved dead. Not reigning as priests and kings.  Apparently Adventists do not have much faith in God's ability to judge, since they see themselves spending 1,000 years going over the records so that they can assure themselves and the rest of the watching universe that God was fair. That does not sounds like much of a reign! Rather, this 1,000-year audit sounds like a huge waste of time!

If it is still true that "by beholding we become changed",  why would be spend a thousand years reading crime stories.  YUK!! 

I personally believe the redeemed WILL become "priests and kings" and will "reign on the earth".   First they must learn the ways of God, and get answers to their questions ABOUT God.

I believe we will govern the nations - as priests, under Christ - who will be High Priest and King of kings.  That was the system for Israel, before she elected to have a king (Saul).  The priests governed, along with the firstborn of each family, clan, and tribe.

"The nations" will be those raised at the 8th millennium.  They will be "the rest of the dead".  I know that Adventists teach that "the rest" are all of the lost, but I disagree.  I believe "the rest" will be those who (for whatever reason) could not freely CHOOSE during the 6000 years from Adam to the SC.  They will be resurrected, then grow up to maturity, then they will have to choose whether to serve King Jesus.  Those who rebel will come up as the Army of Gog-Magog. 

Adventism has no answer for how God will deal with little children, or mentally handicapped, or ignorant pagans.  If HE translates them into His kingdom, without their freewill choice, isn't that manipulation?  I don't believe our God would do THAT.  If he would manipulate, then why didn't HE just do it in the first place, and skip all the pain.  The point of all this pain is to learn from the experience,  and to prevent another rebellion. 

There WILL be evil on the earth, after the 7th millennium.  Satan is loosed, remember.  He is the essence of EVIL.   His rebellion started in Heaven.  So there WAS "evil in Heaven".  May we are saying there will eventually be NO MORE "evil in Heaven".