How exact do we need to be?

[Gail]

I know that God wants us to be perfect as He is perfect.

Since to our human understanding that is pretty impossible, what do we do? 

Try to understand what God means by those words, I guess. 

Or, wait for Him to endow us with... what, exactly?

What I am getting at, is that our human idea of perfection makes us focus on others' imperfections. This is a whole lot easier than taking that long look in the mirror.

When we use, The just shall live by his faith, as a way to focus on ourselves instead of Christ's faithfulness, our beauty will be changed back into ashes and our joy will recede into the oil of mourning again.

It has to be more than about us.

Just some thoughts wandering about and popping onto a page.

[dgrimm60]

GAIL

I  hear  a  sermon  about  the  word  perfection====the speaker  made  a  point   about  the  word  perfect  

he  said  we  could  use the  word  qualified ===an example===" this  person  is  perfect  for the  job"

we  could use  the  word  qualified====" this person is qualified for the job "

so GOD THE FATHER===GOD THE SON===GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT  are  qualifying    his  people  to  be in HEAVEN

just  a  thought

dgrimm60

[Gail]

Doug, I really like that! Good thought!

[JoeMo]

" And he said, “The kingdom of God is as if a man should scatter seed on the ground. ²⁷ He sleeps and rises night and day, and the seed sprouts and grows; he knows not how. ²⁸ The earth produces by itself, first the blade, then the ear, then the full grain in the ear. ²⁹ But when the grain is ripe, at once he puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come.” (Mark 4:26-29)

This verse indicates to me that "exactness" (perfection) is a process rather than a goal.  We "grow" into it - by experience and faith, we become qualified for salvation by the grace and righteousness of Christ.  At any point along the path, we are "qualified" through maintaining faith and trust in Him who qualifies us.

[debbym]

It is not the blessings that fall upon us that endure, but the blessings we cling fast to, the blessings we hold tight and not let be taken from us.  It requires firm decision, and earnest faith, and  not allowing any forces to take the blessed gifts from us.  Those forces will come to steal away the blessings.  The enemy comes to kill, steal, and destroy.  We are called to be defenders of the faith.

The blessings of faith ask us to be engaged, not just passive receiving.  God wants our involvement because he wants to grow in us His beautiful attributes.

 

[8thdaypriest]

5048 teleio,w teleioo {tel-i-o'-o}
Meaning:  1) to make perfect, complete 1a) to carry through completely, to accomplish, finish, bring to an end 2) to complete (perfect) 2a) add what is yet wanting in order to render a thing full 2b) to be found perfect 3) to bring to the end (goal) proposed 4) to accomplish 4a) bring to a close or fulfilment by event 4a1) of the prophecies of the scriptures
Origin:  from 5046; TDNT - 8:79,1161; v
Usage:  AV - make perfect 12, perfect 4, finish 4, fulfil 2, be perfect 1, consecrate 1; 24

Obviously - the word "perfect" in our Western culture, is used to mean "without any flaw", but the Greek word that is translated "perfect" or "perfection" means "to finish", "to complete", "to fulfill", "to accomplish", "to bring to an end", "to render full". 

Examples of usage or translation:

Hebrews 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, (NKJ)

Jesus was not "perfected" when He incarnated.  He was "perfected" when He died, rose again, and was glorified.  This should tell us that "perfect" has a different meaning from the one we usually think of - to be without any flaw.

Would not "perfected" - in our own journey, then mean that we reach the state of glory that God has intended for us - immortal, and completely filled with His Spirit. 

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. (NKJ)

We ARE perfect (without flaw) in God's sight, the moment we belong to Christ.  We partake of His perfection.  This is imputed perfection.

1 John 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. (NKJ)

It's HIS love that is perfected - IN us and though us. 

We must give up this burden of perfectionism.   Jesus is the One who will perfect His love through us and in us.  That is His job.  I can no more love perfectly, than I can walk on water, or fly.  So long as I'm watching myself - to see if I'm perfect enough, I am not watching Jesus, trusting Him that He WILL bring me to perfection.  So long as I am working to change myself, I am actually getting in His way. 

Philippians 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ; (NKJ)

Philippians 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. (NAU)

If Jesus shows me something in my character that HE wants to change (but I'm hanging on to), then my part is to open myself to HIS working - to ask HIM to change me, and then TRUST that He will.  (Trusting means I will NOT constantly monitor my "progress".) 

 

 

 

[dgrimm60]

8THDAYPRIEST

well with the Greek definition  and meaning  my post  is on the right thought process

dgrimm60

[aka]

18 hours ago, JoeMo said:

This verse indicates to me that "exactness" (perfection) is a process rather than a goal.  We "grow" into it - by experience and faith, we become qualified for salvation by the grace and righteousness of Christ.  At any point along the path, we are "qualified" through maintaining faith and trust in Him who qualifies us.

That's the right way of looking at the call of perfection in us.

[aka]

8th day priest Rachel said:

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. (NKJ)

We ARE perfect (without flaw) in God's sight, the moment we belong to Christ.  We partake of His perfection.  This is imputed perfection.

1 John 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. (NKJ)

It's HIS love that is perfected - IN us and though us. 

------------ 

The message is well put in a continuum of grammatical progression.  The indwelling of His holy Spirit brings in us a progress of sanctification to reach a goal that God has in mind for each of his new-creatures-in-Christ. It was not a new concept to the Jewish hearers because of the Old Testament saying

"Thou shalt be perfect with the Lord thy God" Deut. 18:13. 

I believe perfection has to do with our moral condition. We are blameless when we do not getting drunk, not promiscuous, don't steal, aren't pathological liars, and any of the other carnal sinning. If we are approaching holiness we are approaching perfection.

Colossians 3:14 (21 century King James)

"And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness."

 

[8thdaypriest]

7 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Jesus has something a little different in mind.

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Mat 5:48)

 

Something "different".  What are you saying? 

Jesus had "in mind" that Peter should walk on the water.  But Peter could only walk on that water BY the power of God.  Certainly NOT by his own mind over matter.  The critical factor was his belief.  Did Peter believe that God would enable him to do it?   Peter's faith/belief started out fairly good, but began to fail part way to the finish (perfection/completeness). 

Personally, I've lost track of how many times I've cried out, "Save me!  I perish." 

Whether Peter walked the distance by faith, or by special rescue - either way - Peter was saved from the water.   That's what I count on.

[JoeMo]

12 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Mat 5:48)

As Rachel said in a recent post:

On 10/17/2017 at 11:43 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

Obviously - the word "perfect" in our Western culture, is used to mean "without any flaw", but the Greek word that is translated "perfect" or "perfection" means "to finish", "to complete", "to fulfill", "to accomplish", "to bring to an end", "to render full". 

Being realistic, we can never be as perfect ("without any flaw") as our Father in heaven.  Didn't Paul say "“There is no one righteous, not even one;" (Rom.3:10)?  If no one is righteous, no one is perfect, since perfect righteousness is part of being perfect.

[JoeMo]

On 10/17/2017 at 8:28 AM, JoeMo said:

first the blade, then the ear, then the full grain in the ear. 

 

14 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

well, even going by Rachel's take, (which I agree with, as far as it can be applied), no one will ever be "complete" enough either. Otherwise, we could just save ourselves - eventually.

I believe that the blade, the ear, and the full grain were "complete" at every stage of development.  The first cute little blade was "perfect". The healthy, developing ear was "perfect".  The delicious full grain was "perfect".  In this sense, "completeness" or "perfection" is a process.

8 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

This is a perfect example of what I really like about you [Rachel]. . You give great answers, that engage or challenge mu ever spinning mind, and I like reading your posts, even the disagreeing ones.

I agree with you 100%.  If you haven't been to her website www.prophecyviewpoint.com, take a look.  It's great.

[8thdaypriest]

I used to read the 10 as Commands, and the "be perfect" as a command.  Now I read them as promises - promises of what is possible in Christ.  

When we ask "what is our part", I look at the story of Peter - the boat - and the "command" to "Come to Me on the water". 

Peter DID get out of the boat - in a storm.  Not something a reasonable man would do.  He was headed in Christ's direction.  So - Peter's "part" was to act (based upon his belief in Christ).   He was rescued half way there BECAUSE he had acted in response to Christ's command. 

When we "act" - often we are waiting to see IF success will happen.  That is not faith.  That is testing HIM.  But in the story of Peter, the LORD was testing Peter.  Or maybe challenging Peter is a better way to put it.  The Word does say that everyone will be "tested".  Peter had already SEEN many miracles done by Jesus.  He had evidence upon which to base belief. 

We cannot even "have faith" without the spirit of Christ.  Right?  Faith is one of those "gifts" from God.  But evidence can help faith grow.  Evidence is like faith fertilizer .  Fertilizer does not start the plant growing.  It just helps the plant grow stronger.  Like the evidence for special creation, the finds by archeologists, the amazing complexity of biological systems, or fulfilled prophecy, or the amazing agreement between the 66 Books.    

Matthew 17:20  So Jesus said to them, "Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain,`Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you." (NKJ)

People who believe, have faith.  And people who have faith, believe.  It might be interesting to determine the difference between the two words.  At any rate, where does faith begin?  We already know it grows.  And we already know the more faith one has, the more one can accomplish - both within himself, and for others.  And we know that evidence can strengthen faith. 

For a "seed" (of faith) to "sprout" in the soul - the first thing needed is WATER.  Without RAIN, seed will just sit there in their shells.  Man has taken advantage is this for storage purposes.   Water (in the Scriptures) is a symbol for the SPIRIT.  So the first thing needed for faith is the action of God's Spirit upon the mind.  

God's Spirit can be "resisted", which is where the comparison breaks down.  Plants cannot resist.  LOL

[8thdaypriest]

59 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

I like the way you said this. Is there any room in your understanding of it to say the "commandments" are BOTH a promise and a command?

Sure.  If the LORD has commanded it, then HE will provide the strength, courage, faith to perform it.

[8thdaypriest]

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

I find it amazing to consider how long some seeds can preserve themselves until they get that water. In fact, some tree seeds cannot even respond to the water and grow, until they are "released" from their cones or shells, in a forest fire that is hundreds of degrees hot. Now that really makes it interesting. AND it provides some hope for stubborn old goats like me.

I am counting on this, for my sister, who has resisted for many, many years.  I wonder if it would be wrong to pray for a "fire". 

[LifeHiscost]

6 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I used to read the 10 as Commands, and the "be perfect" as a command.  Now I read them as promises - promises of what is possible in Christ.  

And since without Jesus we can do nothing, according to the Word I need to accept Jesus will perform the keeping of the Word as a gift. Confession and repentance are daily needful exercises of personal behavior.

15If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever—… John 14

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[debbym]

 I read the command to be perfect as a comment on the power of bigotry, prejudice...  We are asked to be impartial in giving love and graciousness to all without making a difference, and this may be harder than anything else the Lord asks to do in being His representative.  I would venture to say it is  much more challenging to our nature than walking on water.  To be gentle and loving, generous and gracious to someone who offends and repulses our being... is nothing less than the utterly transforming power of divine love.  God loves and is forgiving to all without any respect of persons, privilege, culture, education... etc...

[LifeHiscost]

3 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

That doesnt sound right???

Can you think of a better way to deal with this Word?

…8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His word is not in us.… 1 John 1

9What then? Are we any better? Not at all. For we have already made the charge that Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin. 10As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; 11There is no one who understands; no one who seeks God.… Romans 3

God is Love!~Jesus saves!     

[8thdaypriest]

16 hours ago, LifeHiscost said:

And since without Jesus we can do nothing, according to the Word I need to accept Jesus will perform the keeping of the Word as a gift. Confession and repentance are daily needful exercises of personal behavior.

15If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever—… John 14

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

Yes - LHC.  I believe the new Comforter, would be the glorified Christ. 

[8thdaypriest]

12 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

To me, the "ten commandments" are three things in one. lol Sound familiar yet?

1/ they are commandments

2/ they are promises

3/ they are an outline of God's character

4/ they show the nature of 2 things: our relationship with Him, and our relationship with other people...

PS I didnt say I could count, did I?

They are "The Covenant".

They are the basis for judgment against those who knowingly keep doing these things - without repentance.

 

[LifeHiscost]

9 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I dont "deal with the Word;" the word deals with me

Do you not believe in the reciprocal counter play with your best Friend?

…14You are My friends if you do what I command you. 15No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not understand what his master is doing. But I have called you friends, because everything I have learned from My Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose Me, but I chose you. And I appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will remain—so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you.… John 15

As a child of the King, would you not expect that in His love for you as His child, you please Him when you react by intelligent response insofar as you are able.

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[LifeHiscost]

7 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Yes - LHC.  I believe the new Comforter, would be the glorified Christ. 

15If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever — 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and He will be in you.… John 15

Notice that Jesus says Advocate, another Comforter in other translations.  There is no doubt I have little conception of the fullness of God's character. However that doesn't disturb me in the least for I'm of the understanding His character will be studied through the ceaseless ages of eternity by His children.

God is Love!~Jesus saves!   I wish you a   

[LifeHiscost]

15 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I have to plead ignorance here. I have no idea what you are talking about. I have been completely confused by your comment.

  

The Wanderer

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Posted yesterday at 08:50 AM

On 10/20/2017 at 1:41 AM, LifeHiscost said:

Can you think of a better way to deal with this Word?

I dont "deal with the Word;" the word deals with me 

 

 

 

One thing for sure is that God doesn't withdraw His grace from us for what we are ignorant of as long long as we don't turn away deliberately from what we know He asks of us.

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[LifeHiscost]

21 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

and you are saying this about/to me why?

Knowing this to be a topic on a forum with numerous readers, I try to address my comments to the topic at hand, "

How exact do we need to be?

" There is no doubt often my thoughts do not meet the expectations of the participants. Since I had no agenda other than making the OP contain one man's observations biblically more meaningful, perhaps equating my remarks as one might to a preacher in the pulpit, speaking to innumerable individuals, might give some idea we don't have a meeting of the mind.

God is love!~Jesus saves!