Faith and religion

[Stan]

There is much talk about people coming into a Church and leaving same.

The real trouble is they come to learn faith, we try to teach them religion instead.

I believe too many religionist lack faith in their experience.

 

Thoughts?

[LifeHiscost]

3 minutes ago, Stan said:

There is much talk about people coming into a Church and leaving same.

The real trouble is they come to learn faith, we try to teach them religion instead.

I believe too many religionist lack faith in their experience.

 

Thoughts?

It took a good portion of my Christian experience to learn that nothing I could do, other than perhaps submission, was/is responsible for my salvation or relationship with Christ.

 

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God...Ephesians 2

 

When does a price given by myself make it no longer a gift?

 

²¹ “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. ²² Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ ²³ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’....Matthew 7

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[JoeMo]

Stan is saying something in a more eloquent way that I have said many times here.  People join the church and develop a relationship with the church/denomination instead of a relationship with Jesus.  They experience the rules and regulations of the church instead of an intimate relationship with Jesus.  When they become disillusioned and leave the denomination, they equate it with "leaving God".  The enemy capitalizes on this; and discourages them from continuing to seek Christ.

Faith tends to grow stronger - independent of the church - when we truly experience Christ.  There are people of all Christian denominations who have had an encounter with the God of Heaven.  The general result is that the become "sold-out, born-again" believers who fearlessly proclaim their faith (although the passion might be temporary).

This phenomenon is not limited to Christians.  I recently read an article from an Adventist missionary in the Middle East that 70 - 85% of Muslims who become Christians do so after a direct encounter with Jesus - through a miraculous healing, a deliverance from demonic harassment, or a dream or vision.  My faith has been strengthened through experiences I interpret as encounters with the supernatural.

[Gail]

It's too bad the realisation is coming now...

[debbym]

the evidence i see of faith is a kind heart, that does what God tells them to.

you don't have to be religious... God speaks to people everywhere, and some hear and obey and some do not.

[debbym]

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

This is a good thought; but I am wondering some now...the text actually says "evidence of things NOT seen," and the things you described ARE seen. (I think sometimes, people call the things we see, "fruit of the Spirit," just as Jesus says ye shall know them by their fruit." ) so why does the text say so specific "evidence of things NOT seen?"

Let your light so shine before men that they may see your good works and that they may glorify your Father in heaven.

yes, actions are seen, but they are evidence for a God that you do not see.

[debbym]

14 hours ago, JoeMo said:

 They experience the rules and regulations of the church instead of an intimate relationship with Jesus.  When they become disillusioned and leave the denomination, they equate it with "leaving God".  The enemy capitalizes on this; and discourages them from continuing to seek Christ.

Faith tends to grow stronger - independent of the church - when we truly experience Christ.  There are people of all Christian denominations who have had an encounter with the God of Heaven.  The general result is that the become "sold-out, born-again" believers who fearlessly proclaim their faith (although the passion might be temporary).

This phenomenon is not limited to Christians.  I recently read an article from an Adventist missionary in the Middle East that 70 - 85% of Muslims who become Christians do so after a direct encounter with Jesus - through a miraculous healing, a deliverance from demonic harassment, or a dream or vision.  My faith has been strengthened through experiences I interpret as encounters with the supernatural.

God speaks to us in many ways, through nature, through providence, through the witness of the Character of God through the actions of others, and through the inspiration of the spirit speaking in the word of God.  "Faith Comes by hearing... and hearing comes by the word of God."  God is the source of faith, humanity is the source of unbelief.

i wonder if every Christian doesn't go through the process, of sorting out  what is their faith and what is the source of their faith, and is their faith in God, or in man.  I believe we tend to over idealize church, and the institutions of the church,  schools,  hospitals, and various churches,  or prominent church families.  It can be so deeply disappointing to find we cannot place our faith on our own best efforts, or in our most wonderful institutions.  But this disappointment must come if our faith is not riveted in Christ.

unfortunately,  supernatural experiences can leave our faith in humanity.  the flow of money can be deceptive.  we can be so rapt by material blessings we fail to maintain that God is the source of our strength, and hope.  emotions can override our will to serve God, and we can inadvertently end up yielding to the will of flesh over the will of God.  there is a roaring lion going about seeking whom he may devour.  only Christ can interrupt this enemy.

[JoeMo]

10 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

what about those who "TRULY experience Christ" IN The Church?

One can experience Christ inside or outside of a church (aka a denomination).  Christ's "church" exists in all denominations as well as outside of denominations.  Although I self-identify as an SDA and most of my "God" experiences have occurred as an SDA, very few (if any) have taken place in a traditional SDA setting.  In fact, the most striking experiences have occurred when I was by myself - alone - just God and me.  Supernatural experiences are not limited to those of a specific denomination.

[JoeMo]

21 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

What is "the evidence of faith?"

"But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.  You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?  Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?  You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.  And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,”[e]and he was called God’s friend.  You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. (James 2:20-25)

Based on this scripture I would say the evidence of faith is your deeds.  Ephesians seems to say that salvation and faith are given prior to you doing the deeds God has prepared for you. 

" For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.  For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do". (Eph. 2:8-9)

[aka]

17 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.  As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead. (James 2:20-25)

Based on this scripture I would say the evidence of faith is your deeds.  Ephesians seems to say that salvation and faith are given prior to you doing the deeds God has prepared for you. 

" For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.  For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do". (Eph. 2:8-9)

[phkrause]

On 11/10/2017 at 10:40 AM, JoeMo said:

" For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.  For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do". (Eph. 2:8-9)

I do love that statement, JoeMo, but what's missing? Yes, Jesus died so we are all saved by His Grace, but the statement goes on to say by "Faith!!" So my question here is, is what's the missing part? What is it that we need to do to actually be saved by His "Grace" and through "Faith?" Don't get me wrong, I know we are all saved by His Death! But when it says "through" Faith, what does that mean to you?

[JoeMo]

On 11/13/2017 at 6:41 AM, phkrause said:

Yes, Jesus died so we are all saved by His Grace, but the statement goes on to say by "Faith!!"

I can't speak for everyone; but being saved through faith to me means having total dependence on Jesus as the author and finisher of our salvation.  Even though I consider myself a Christian, I am FAR, FAR from being a saint.  The sins of my past life are more than enough to garner me eternal death; much less the sins I still commit.  Faith for me means total dependence of the righteousness of Christ covering my sins.  If I have to rely on my own deeds for salvation - even just a little bit - I'm confident that I am doomed.  Only the death and resurrection of Christ can save me.  It's a mystery to me why He saves us - it must be out of blind, unconditional love.  The only response I can have to that is love for Him and trust that He is mighty to save.

[phkrause]

3 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I can't speak for everyone; but being saved through faith to me means having total dependence on Jesus as the author and finisher of our salvation.  Even though I consider myself a Christian, I am FAR, FAR from being a saint.  The sins of my past life are more than enough to garner me eternal death; much less the sins I still commit.  Faith for me means total dependence of the righteousness of Christ covering my sins.  If I have to rely on my own deeds for salvation - even just a little bit - I'm confident that I am doomed.  Only the death and resurrection of Christ can save me.  It's a mystery to me why He saves us - it must be out of blind, unconditional love.  The only response I can have to that is love for Him and trust that He is mighty to save.

I'm in 100% agreement!! But you didn't really answer this part:

 

On 11/13/2017 at 8:41 AM, phkrause said:

So my question here is, is what's the missing part?

There is still something we need to do? The reason I asked this is in your original question:

 

On 11/10/2017 at 10:33 AM, JoeMo said:

One can experience Christ inside or outside of a church (aka a denomination).  Christ's "church" exists in all denominations as well as outside of denominations. 

What I'm getting at is, when we say outside the church/denomination's, do we mean church members that have left the church? or those that are not/never been members? Like say atheists, etc.? They claim not to believe in God/Jesus, so how does grace/faith come in for them?

[debbym]

5 hours ago, phkrause said:

I'm in 100% agreement!! But you didn't really answer this part:

 

There is still something we need to do? The reason I asked this is in your original question:

 

What I'm getting at is, when we say outside the church/denomination's, do we mean church members that have left the church? or those that are not/never been members? Like say atheists, etc.? They claim not to believe in God/Jesus, so how does grace/faith come in for them?

i will not answer for the person you are asking... but i would just mention my view on this... it is really an important question in my book.

God speaks to every person, and what each person does with that truth, whatever truth it is... is what they do with their destiny.

Only God can see in the heart what the will of the heart is, or what the heart response to God is.  

I believe there will be people who will be in heaven who have never hear the name of Jesus, but their heart cherished the truth and light God gave them.

[phkrause]

23 hours ago, debbym said:

iGod speaks to every person, and what each person does with that truth, whatever truth it is... is what they do with their destiny.

Only God can see in the heart what the will of the heart is, or what the heart response to God is.  

I believe there will be people who will be in heaven who have never hear the name of Jesus, but their heart cherished the truth and light God gave them.

I'm in agreement debbym

[LifeHiscost]

On 11/9/2017 at 9:44 AM, The Wanderer said:

  Could faith be that line? What is "the evidence of faith?"

I'm satisfied what I do reveals what I have trust in.

1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.... Hebrews 11

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves!       

[8thdaypriest]

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (NKJ)

Romans 4:5  "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness" (NKJ)

Romans 14:23  "for whatever is not from faith is sin" (NKJ)

James 2:20  "faith without works is dead"

1 John 4:7   Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

I agree that the Spirit of God comes to everyone.   Individuals respond to, or resist the influence of God's Spirit.   Responding to that Spirit, causes persons to "love one another".   Resisting that Spirit causes human beings to HATE one another, because love comes only from God.  Satan and his Evil Ones are devoid of that Spirit of God. 

So far - so good. 

The "works" mentioned by James are works stemming from genuine unselfish love - hence from God.   Other verses where Paul mentions "works", these may be sacrifices at the Temple, or offerings, or whatever works are done to EARN salvation.   So there are two types of "works" - one from God, the other from self. 

I can see why faith would be "evidence" of the things not seen.  It is the unselfish love that is "evidence" to others that there really is supernatural force at work.  Because humans do not naturally love one another unselfishly.  My husband came to believe after seeing the changes in me, after I experienced Christ. 

I'm still not clear on just how "faith is the substance of things hoped for".   Maybe those things you "hope for" become a sure thing - have real substance, as you experience Christ and see yourself being changed. 

I should mention that there IS a counterfeit "love" in the world.  A love-high - like the hippie communes, or the Buddhist  rejection of "materialism".  It rejects worship of Jesus Christ as the risen Son of God.   This type of "love" is not of God.  The Spirit of God will always cause one to embrace Jesus.  1 John 4:3 "and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God.  And this is the spirit of the Antichrist."

 

[8thdaypriest]

An important question is:  Can one become a citizen of the Kingdom of God, and receive eternal life IF one has NOT acknowledged Jesus Christ as LORD? 

Many of those who lived before Christ incarnated, worshiped the Son of God as Yahweh.   (Or rebelled against Him).   Those who worshiped Him and obeyed by faith, will certainly receive eternal life. 
Others - both before and since the incarnation - have lived and died with no direct knowledge of Yahweh.  But they were influenced by His Spirit.  

Question:  Is responding to the Spirit of God a choice?   I would say - yes, because one can choose to resist.    Is it a salvational choice?   Is it enough?  Can one be "saved" and be rewarded with immortality, by responding to the Spirit of God, WITHOUT knowing the True God behind the Spirit - without knowing about His Covenant Law? 

To that question, I would say "No".   This seems unjust, to those who believe everyone must decide before the Second Coming.  

I believe it is just, because I believe that everyone who lived and died with no knowledge of Yahweh, will be resurrected at the 8th millennium, as "the rest of the dead".  (This includes all who died as young children, or with a mental impairment.) They will then HEAR about the True God, and His Son.  They will then CHOOSE either to serve Jesus Christ, reigning as LORD,  OR to rebel against Him - to serve Satan and the Army of Gog.   

Those raised at the Second Coming will serve as "priests of God and of Christ" (Rev. 20:5-6) to teach and govern those resurrected at the 8th millennium.  

I used to think I was alone in this belief.  I have since learned that some whole denominations taught this long before I came to believe it. 

http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/8thdaybook.shtml

 

 

[JoeMo]

20 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Question:  Is responding to the Spirit of God a choice?   I would say - yes, because one can choose to resist.    Is it a salvational choice?   Is it enough?  Can one be "saved" and be rewarded with immortality, by responding to the Spirit of God, WITHOUT knowing the True God behind the Spirit - without knowing about His Covenant Law? 

To that question, I would say "No".   This seems unjust, to those who believe everyone must decide before the Second Coming.  

I believe it is just, because I believe that everyone who lived and died with no knowledge of Yahweh, will be resurrected at the 8th millennium, as "the rest of the dead".  (This includes all who died as young children, or with a mental impairment.) They will then HEAR about the True God, and His Son.  They will then CHOOSE either to serve Jesus Christ, reigning as LORD,  OR to rebel against Him - to serve Satan and the Army of Gog.  

[debbym]

23 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

An important question is:  Can one become a citizen of the Kingdom of God, and receive eternal life IF one has NOT acknowledged Jesus Christ as LORD? 

Many of those who lived before Christ incarnated, worshiped the Son of God as Yahweh.   (Or rebelled against Him).   Those who worshiped Him and obeyed by faith, will certainly receive eternal life. 
Others - both before and since the incarnation - have lived and died with no direct knowledge of Yahweh.  But they were influenced by His Spirit.  

Question:  Is responding to the Spirit of God a choice?   I would say - yes, because one can choose to resist.    Is it a salvational choice?   Is it enough?  Can one be "saved" and be rewarded with immortality, by responding to the Spirit of God, WITHOUT knowing the True God behind the Spirit - without knowing about His Covenant Law? 

To that question, I would say "No".   This seems unjust, to those who believe everyone must decide before the Second Coming.  

I believe it is just, because I believe that everyone who lived and died with no knowledge of Yahweh, will be resurrected at the 8th millennium, as "the rest of the dead".  (This includes all who died as young children, or with a mental impairment.) They will then HEAR about the True God, and His Son.  They will then CHOOSE either to serve Jesus Christ, reigning as LORD,  OR to rebel against Him - to serve Satan and the Army of Gog.   

Those raised at the Second Coming will serve as "priests of God and of Christ" (Rev. 20:5-6) to teach and govern those resurrected at the 8th millennium.  

I used to think I was alone in this belief.  I have since learned that some whole denominations taught this long before I came to believe it. 

http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/8thdaybook.shtml

 

 

when Jesus separated the sheep and the Goats, there were those invited to enter the kingdom off God, because they ministered to Christ in the person of those in need.  they were not aware they did these things for Jesus. 

Jesus has identified himself with the human family in need, in grief, in dying, and in guilt, and as sinners.  He became guilty who knew no sin, that we could be made the righteousness of God in Him.

If by the power of the Holy Spirit, we Love God, and hate sin... not by power nor by might but by my spirit says the Lord of Hosts, if we choose  to live in the power of God, and not try to do righteousness in our own power and hold our goodness up to God for His approval of us... we honor His love, His mercy, His goodness... and we live not for ourselves but For Him, then we are really living.  And that life is an eternal life.

God knows His own,. He knows our hearts, what we are and what we are not, and what our heart response to Him is.  Every opportunity of His drawing, is given to us by Christ and is an opportunity to accept or reject Jesus.  This is a progressive walk of increased understanding, and love for what is of God.  in whatever increment we are accepting the work of the Holy Spirit in our heart, accepting the drawing of His love, we are turning to God, and turning form selfishness.

I don't know  that there is a line of measurement that says... ok your understanding of Christ is now adequate, and you  have now passed the line and you are saved.  Abraham didn't understand much about Jesus, until Issac was spared on the alter, but Abraham followed God.

The disciples didn't understand much about Jesus until Pentecost.  Even though they were eye witnesses, they had a progressive walk of comprehension of who Jesus was and what he was here to do, and what he was doing in heaven for them after the ascension.

[8thdaypriest]

8 hours ago, debbym said:

when Jesus separated the sheep and the Goats, there were those invited to enter the kingdom off God, because they ministered to Christ in the person of those in need.  they were not aware they did these things for Jesus. 

Jesus has identified himself with the human family in need, in grief, in dying, and in guilt, and as sinners.  He became guilty who knew no sin, that we could be made the righteousness of God in Him.

If by the power of the Holy Spirit, we Love God, and hate sin... not by power nor by might but by my spirit says the Lord of Hosts, if we choose  to live in the power of God, and not try to do righteousness in our own power and hold our goodness up to God for His approval of us... we honor His love, His mercy, His goodness... and we live not for ourselves but For Him, then we are really living.  And that life is an eternal life.

God knows His own,. He knows our hearts, what we are and what we are not, and what our heart response to Him is.  Every opportunity of His drawing, is given to us by Christ and is an opportunity to accept or reject Jesus.  This is a progressive walk of increased understanding, and love for what is of God.  in whatever increment we are accepting the work of the Holy Spirit in our heart, accepting the drawing of His love, we are turning to God, and turning form selfishness.

I don't know  that there is a line of measurement that says... ok your understanding of Christ is now adequate, and you  have now passed the line and you are saved.  Abraham didn't understand much about Jesus, until Issac was spared on the alter, but Abraham followed God.

The disciples didn't understand much about Jesus until Pentecost.  Even though they were eye witnesses, they had a progressive walk of comprehension of who Jesus was and what he was here to do, and what he was doing in heaven for them after the ascension.

 Well stated.  I'm sure that Enoch had no clear understanding of Father and Son,  the Lamb to come,  or of things we today would consider essential.  He just had a craving to "know" His Creator. 

[8thdaypriest]

13 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

 

"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." (Rom 5:10)

Reconciled by His death.   Saved by His life.  

Now that's a good topic for a thread.   How are we "saved by His life" ??    Can we be "reconciled" and yet NOT be "saved" ?  The word translated as "reconcile" is the SAME WORD that is translated as "atonement".   The Day of Atonement, is the Day of Reconciliation. 

Here's the Strong's for "atone" in Leviticus 6:7:

Meaning:  1) to cover, purge, make an atonement, make reconciliation, cover over with pitch 1a) (Qal) to coat or cover with pitch 1b) (Piel) 1b1) to cover over, pacify, propitiate 1b2) to cover over, atone for sin, make atonement for 1b3) to cover over, atone for sin and persons by legal rites 1c) (Pual) 1c1) to be covered over 1c2) to make atonement for 1d) (Hithpael) to be covered

 "Covered with pitch" makes me think of Noah's ark.  It was covered with pitch.  It was provided for the people, but individuals still had to get inside the "covering" in order to be "saved" from the flood.  

Leviticus 6:7 "So the priest shall make atonement for him before the LORD, and he shall be forgiven for any one of these things that he may have done in which he trespasses."

2 Corinthians 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, (2Co 5:18 NKJ)

I noticed that  "reconciled" is in the Greek Aorist Tense in this verse.   (Strong's 5660 Tense - Aorist).   Which means that Christ is reconciling us,  not "has reconciled us" .   The reconciliation is a sure process which is not yet complete to the "Perfect Tense".

God Himself does not change.  We change as we hear about our God.   We become reconciled to Him.   If an act of Christ changed something in God, causing Him to forgive men, then there would be nothing for us to do, and no need that men should HEAR the Gospel, or CHOOSE to serve Him. 

So what is "the ministry of reconciliation" ?  

Is it not to tell others that a means of salvation has been provided - an "ark" (covered with pitch) to save them from "the flood"?  But the message includes the command to "believe". 

Acts 16:31 "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved,"

    I Thessalonians 3:16   [Persecution by Jews and pagans] “forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved,”

        To paraphrase Paul,  -- If we don’t speak to the Gentiles about Christ, they cannot "be saved.” 

Why would Paul say such a thing?  

If anyone, living in any era, at any location on the earth, could/can "be saved" simply by responding to the Spirit, WHY the need to reach them and teach them??  Is the teaching mainly for those not self-motivated enough, or spiritually sensitive enough to respond to the Spirit without HEARING and/or SEEING.   Does the LORD provide isolated individuals with a stronger presence of the Spirit, to make up for the absence of missionary teachers, with the "ministry of reconciliation" ?