Apology

[Bravus]

In exploring the issue of origins, and the related issue of Biblical interpretation, it is absolutely not my intention to shake anyone's faith on God or the Bible. I am seeking to understand, but if that quest is a stumbling-block to others, then it's selfish to pursue it here, and I will stop immediately.

God is alive, and powerful: questions don't threaten Him. Sometimes they challenge us, though - and sometimes in healthy ways, sometimes not.

The Bible is authoritative for faith and life.

[Dr. Shane]

I believe that truth need not fear investigation.

[Nicodema]

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Bravus said:

In exploring the issue of origins, and the related issue of Biblical interpretation, it is absolutely not my intention to shake anyone's faith on God or the Bible. I am seeking to understand, but if that quest is a stumbling-block to others, then it's selfish to pursue it here, and I will stop immediately.

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You don't have to stop your exploring OR make an apology on my account, Bravus. Like you said in the other thread, "I don't want that responsibility laid on me" either -- the responsibility of being the "wet blanket" who shut down your discussion. & besides, I'm so not worth it.

[Bravus]

You're infinitely worth it.

[Stan]

Dr Bravus...

You are such a 'keeper'

So glad you fellowship with us..

[Nicodema]

I still don't want you to shut down that discussion on my account. I think it's worth having, it needs to be had, and besides, I don't deal well with bearing the onus for things like that.

[olger]

I appreciate the spirit that you posted in, Bravus. Thank you.

If chaos is the father of all flesh, then disaster is his rainbow in the sky. When we hear the news: Bomb blast kills 10, blacks go looting, man gunned down, women raped, what we are hearing is but the sound of unbelieving man worshipping his creator--chaos. This is the fruit of Darwin.

gcw

Isa. 43:15-16

[Nicodema]

Chaos is also the father of Babalon. (Not Babylon, the city, but Babalon, the occult archetype.) He is Jupiter (laughing arbitrary favoritism) and Saturn (karmic justice & severity, even cruelty as we perceive -- Chronos devoured his offspring, don't forget) combined. He is just as much L. Ron Hubbard (sad to say, that rogue element of shame redeemable only by Uncle Neptune's incestuous ministrations) as ever he was Jack Parsons (ah, sweet glimmer of hope and beauty, so devoted, perfect and true). And ... oh forget it, nobody here would even know what in the blue blazes I'm on about!

[Gerr]

Bravus, I don't know whose post it is that prompted you to issue an apology, but I can assure you, don't do it on my account because of what I said in that thread. While there are things we see in our world that pose a problem to Creationists, I see infinitely more problems with evolution. So, anyone can discuss evolution ad infinitum and it would not unsettle my faith one iota.

Gerry

[Bravus]

By the way, Nico, it may have been some of your posts that made me think about this, but it was also the realisation, which I try to keep in mind at all times when posting, that we verbose ones are the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the readers of these forums. There are likely 9 who read for every 1 who posts. If the discussion was effecting you that way, what was it doing to those who weren't speaking up? So, if I stop it, slow it down or pursue it more sensitively, it's not your fault or responsibility, OK? At the same time, I'm glad you were willing to reflect back how it was effecting you.

[Dr. Shane]

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There are likely 9 who read for every 1 who posts.

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Whenever I post I have this in mind. That is why I rarely use someone's name or the word "you". Because my response is not just for one person to read.

[Nicodema]

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Bravus said:

If the discussion was effecting you that way, what was it doing to those who weren't speaking up? So, if I stop it, slow it down or pursue it more sensitively, it's not your fault or responsibility, OK? At the same time, I'm glad you were willing to reflect back how it was effecting you.

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Truth to tell Bravus I'd much prefer to be engaged on the point of my questions, concerns and troubles in the matter and get some solid answers. Because I'm in the thick of it anyway myself with my family & friends as it stands, and the issues themselves aren't going anywhere (aren't going away, that is) anytime soon ... and I could use some wisdom from someone who IS committed to Christ and does NOT have an agenda to rip the whole fabric of faith to useless shreds ... because those arguing for evolution, for loose & fast rules with inspiration, etc. where *I* "live" are NOT so disposed themselves.

[Bravus]

Fair enough then - we'll proceed, but with care and due consideration. I think both Bevin and I would identify ourselves as strong Christians, strong believers, followers of Christ. We're definitely not about ripping up or ripping down anyone's faith in God or Jesus. If we're about ripping up anything it's spiritual arrogance and easy assumptions that get in the way of deep faith and growing understanding.

I take slight exception to the phrase 'loose & fast rules with interpretation', since the discussions around interpretation that I tried to carry on in my blog in particular were about better interpretations that more strictly and fully bore out the meaning of the scriptures as they were written, and did not play fast and loose with them by overlaying them with incommensurable modern assumptions. I'm definitely not arguing for 'anything goes' in interpretation - quite the reverse. I'm arguing for interpretations that take the text seriously, and are not satisfied with facile surface readings.

[Nicodema]

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Bravus said:

If we're about ripping up anything it's spiritual arrogance and easy assumptions that get in the way of deep faith and growing understanding.

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A total to THAT.

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I take slight exception to the phrase 'loose & fast rules with interpretation'

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... It was "loose & fast rules with inspiration". Still might not be the best way to put it -- understand no aspersions were meant, simply a sloppy grab for a quick & dirty phrase to encapsulate.

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... the discussions around interpretation that I tried to carry on in my blog in particular were about better interpretations that more strictly and fully bore out the meaning of the scriptures as they were written, and did not play fast and loose with them by overlaying them with incommensurable modern assumptions. ... I'm arguing for interpretations that take the text seriously, and are not satisfied with facile surface readings.

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Right on!

[Bravus]

D'oh! Remedial reading classes required over here!

{hugs}

[Taylor]

Bravus, your attitude is so admirable! Thanks for being a part of Adventist Forum!!

[LifeHiscost]

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Nicodema said:

I'm

so

not worth it.

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I appreciate your personal conclusions, Nico, and I'm tempted to give a consensus with others, I would like to bring to your attention something of which you're probably already aware.

If our moments of respite lie in the acceptance of others such as ourselves, when that source becomes scarce or non-existent, we will despair perhaps to improbable recovery.

May I suggest a better way, for which I know you didn't ask, always a risk.

[:"red"] "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." [/] Romans 5:8 KJV

[:"red"] "...for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him." [/] 2 Corinthians 5:21 YLT

[:"red"] "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost..." [/] Titus 3:5 KJV

Keep looking up!!

[Nicodema]

I wasn't fishing for anything with that remark. What I meant was that my moods are so variable and the damage done to me already in life so incredibly deep and complete, that it simply isn't worth the fuss for someone else to make or break a decision -- about something obviously near, dear and important to their heart -- based upon some particular reaction I exhibit at some particular moment. #1, I could end up reacting totally differently on a different day owing to things so subtle and intangible I myself cannot even name or catalogue them; and #2, whatever possible "harm" to me might be of concern, it is by comparison like the tiniest droplet lost in the vast sea of everything truly heinous and devastating that has ever befallen me before.

So really, truly, honestly, not fishing for anything here, I'm genuinely NOT worth it. Unchallenged. And that's why.

[LifeHiscost]

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Nicodema said:

I'm genuinely NOT worth it.

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And that's the awesomeness of our Father. I, personally do not refute your claim. And I also believe that applies to the rest of the some 6-7 billion people who have ever been born on this earth.

However I believe that is a conclusion that reflects, not what God has created,

[:"red"] "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good." [/] Genesis 1:31 KJV

but what the prince of darkness has done to that same creation under his usurped dominion. The need thus, to accomplish something impossible for any of humankind to accomplish.

[:"red"] "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." [/] 2 Corinthians 5:17 NKJV

And that is worthy of God's kind attention and care. When reocognized, it brings honor and glory to Him when we acknowledge it before others. When we exercise the gifts that can only be attributed to Him, we help others to see His lovingkindness, and it brings hope to the hopeless, spiritual sight to the blind, and worthiness to the unworthy.

If others refuse, for whatever reason, to see it as we make effort to reveal it by our own personal testimony for what Jesus has done for us, He does not ask us to make sure that every person accepts what we present, but to leave them in His hands to finish the work that He wishes in their lives, though we may not be granted the privilege to see the growth He promises to accomplish.

[:"red"] "And they overcame...by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony" [/] Rev 12:11 KJV

I suppose an important question to ask ourselves could be, "Is God worth my continued support/love when I don't see the promises He has made, affectively accomplished in my life in the now season". It seems to me to be a question worthy of consideration to anyone who might feel motivated to be a disciple of Jesus.

[:"red"] "And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." [/] Matthew 8:20 KJV

I don't believe God was here asking every disciple to take that calling to themselves, but I do believe He asks me, "Would you still be my disciple if I ask this of you?"

Each person, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, needs to answer that question for themselves.

[:"red"] "Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?" [/] "John 6:67 KJV

[:"red"] "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." [/] Romans 14:5 KJV

[:"red"] "Now the man from whom the demons had departed begged Him that he might be with Him. But Jesus sent him away, saying, “Return to your own house, and tell what great things God has done for you.” And he went his way and proclaimed throughout the whole city what great things Jesus had done for him." [/] Luke 8:38-40 NKJV

Keep looking up!!