EGW Desire of Ages big picture

[ucantblost]

wondering if anyone has  noticed the 'universalism' picture she paints throughout the DA? 

[Gregory Matthews]

There are many aspects to the theology known as Universalism.   Your statement is so broad that it is not possible to really understand what you are saying. 

[ucantblost]

well , its not only the DA, she makes statements in other books and periodicals that lead one to consider the implications, which many times leads to a universalism conclusion. So, let me begin with a really fascinating 'thought provoking' statement she makes in the first page of chapter 1 of the DA. (by the way, i was not into spelling or punctuation or when being educated so forgive me if things are not correct as i make my comments). So page 1 of 1st chapter; speaking of the 'glory of God'   she says ''It was to manifest this glory that He came to our world. TO this sin darkened earth He came to reveal the light of Gods love..."   

continuing next paragraph: "By coming to dwell with us, Jesus was to reveal God both to men and to angels. "   (interesting dont you think? angels?) . again: "But no alone for His earthborn children was this revelation given. Our little world is the lesson book of the universe. Gods wonderful purpose of grace, the mystery of redeeming love, is the theme into which 'angels desire to look' and it will be their study throughout endless ages. Both the redeemed and the unfallen beings will find in the cross of Christ their science and their song."

So, Jesus came to this earth to ''reveal'' God to the angels? (among others). What angels needed to see something about God they were not exposed to in heaven? and, whatever it was , obviously couldnt be revealed by Jesus while in heaven, true? thus the reason he came to this earth.  So, within this 2nd paragraph she says this; ''I hav declared unto them thy name, 'merciful and gracious,long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,''   Gods 'characteristics' wouldnt you say?   Then she says ''not alone for His earthborn children was this revelation given."  So, GOds charachteristics of ''mercy, goodness, truth, garacious, long-suffering'' is what Jesus came to this earth to ''reveal'' to both ''men and angels and all the unfallen beings''. 

So, the angels decision to stay loyal to Jesus or to side with Lucifer was based on what? wasnt there many things about God they didnt know  about? mainly ''goodness, truth etc etc''?

She makes it pretty obvious from this beginning statement that Jesus had to come to this earth to 'enlighten' the universe about God. Which leads me to believe that the angels made thier individual decisions to side with GOd or Lucifer on incomplete information, or knowledge about God. Which leads me to imagine a very very confusing time in heaven, and rightly so. The character of God had not be demonstrated to either group, or to the other worlds. And  if both groups of angels didnt know the knowledge about God that Jesus came to reveal, that would mean that neither did Lucifer, true? becuase he was the 'light bearer' no?  Whatever he knew about God he delivered or defused among the heaevnly host. So, obviously he was in the dark concerning Gods 'character' of ''truth, mercy, long suffering, graciousness''. 

Jesus came to this earth, left his glory up there, left his father and mother, and became a lowly human, to reveal some very important knowledge about God to Lucifer (and all the other angles. Interesting isnt it? God bless

[GayatfootofCross]

3 hours ago, ucantblost said:

 

I really appreciate this.

I myself have been finding people on the internet who are Universalist in the last few months. Out of all the christian groups I have encountered ..these people are much kinder

and least judgmental to me. It has come to be somewhat of a sanctuary.

I am not a complete universalist for I believe God has given us the power of choice to love Him or not. But I tell ya ... A place where they love  and talk about Jesus and painting a picture of a God is bigger is quite fetching .. I find they generally dont dog themselves and more trusting and relaxed in His grace and it shows up online how they approach strangers.  Wow praise GOD!

Follow the fruit!

I have been saying this for a very long time......  GOD IS BETTER THAN WE THINK!

[ucantblost]

hi, i'm sorry that some people think i'm trying to denigrate EGW, not at all, i believe she was as truly inspired as was everyone that is credited with writing in the bible. It is strange , yet understandable how the word 'denigrate'  has been used to 'assume' my intentions. Also, calling my remark about EGW and universalism in the Desire of Ages ''not true' without first asking to see the evidence and the reasoning used to come up with a universalism picture seems a bit premature.  I have posted my  first witness, the first page of the first chapter,  feel free to comment after you thoughtfully and prayerfully consider it. You can let me know whatever you're thinking, i will not be offended i promise, i'm not that type of person anymore, i've been saved...forever.....and so have you, and it's beyond your power or the devils to reverse that status.  Romans 5:10 ''for if WHILE WE WERE HIS ENEMIES we were RECONCILED to God thru HIS DEATH, much more then having been reconciled we shall be SAVED BY HIS life".  Reconciled? while His Enemies?  how exactly does that work? what if i didnt want to be 'reconciled' ? after all i was His enemy,  much like Herod, Saul, Hitler, Manson etc etc, should'nt He have asked my permission to be reconciled first? Humans would never do that right?  So,  it appears that God does whatever He pleases 'without our permission'.  I guess that is why He says ''My ways are not your ways..........as high as the heavens above the earth are my ways above your ways''.   God does things  to us and for us without  being considerate enough to ask permission first.  And thats what i love about Him,  He knows what Im going to want before i have any idea!  God bless you.  

[GayatfootofCross]

Let me explain a bit where I am coming from

As God's love and forgiveness for you penetrates your core ..you forgive yourself more quickly and know "it's under the blood"(as they say). And let others off too.

You come to understand He is always with you .. loving you ..facing you with no condemnation.. no matter where you turn. Even the most troublesome people have His riches. (the Father says to the older brother " ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that is mine is yours.' ".  our superpower to block Jesus or to reveal Jesus to others .. in essence -What was already done for them at the Cross.

 

Seeing all humans you encounter as holy ground .."For in HIM we All move and have our very being". -Paul

Jesus has put His face on every human soul. Matt 25:40.

God is in every breath we take. (the same word for Breath is Spirit).

My "universalism" isn't about All will go to heaven but to see (o God help me) Everyone as already ransomed!

So in essence ... Everybody you encounter isnt either a missionary project or a reprobate. But someone to love on as you love Jesus.

pssst ..they can tell the difference when approached  and o so weary on both fronts.

..........................................

 

[ucantblost]

What a beautiful mind you have. This is where God has led me too. God knew my respect for EGW and bible and my analytical mind (growing up with a SDA evangelist mother who preached law and sabbath to everyone) and being on the restrictive end of a wonderful mom and dad when it came to the sabbath hours and especially the Papacy (what another story). God knew what i needed to break free of that mindset, and He used ''behold your God'' by Fred Wright, which led me the Desire of Ages, and there is where God changed my paradigm concerning His behavior and Character and 'universal' plan for mankind. I love sharing what He opened to me and how He brought questions and thoughts to my mind which dispelled the 'bully' concept i had of God. Here is a bit of what my dilemma was on how i visioned God (and appears to be the SDA  message still) (i'm still a church going SDA, have way too many  friends that still want my friendship and I theirs, every sabbath). A little story. God knocks on a young mans heart, the young man asks 'who is it?', God replies 'it's God, your creator'. The man asks 'what would you like'?  God replies 'I like for you to let me in'.  'why' responds the young man.  'So I can save you'  replies God. 'From what?' says the young man. 'From what I'm going to do to you if you dont let me in'. 

when we tell the world they need to accept Jesus as their Lord and savior, they need to be covered by his blood and accept His gift of grace, OR ELSE they will be cast into a lake of fire , then we have just painted the picture depicted in that story.  It's the same as holding a gun to their head and demanding obedience. I believed this with all my heart. Not now tho. peace

[ucantblost]

So, for anyone experiencing in some way that same belief more or less, i would love to share some of what God has shown me over the past 10 years of my awakening. That is my only intention here, to possibly lighten the burden of guilt and fear that you might be living which has created a not so peaceful life. I'm a work in progress still, not a holier than thou guy. So, with what i posted hours ago from DA first page of first chapter about Jesus coming to this earth to 'reveal' God to 'angels' as well as men, and infact to 'all beings in the universe', which begged the question ''what could the angels, Lucifer being one of them, need to see about God that they obviously 'couldnt' see while in heaven?  ok, God led me to a very very interesting statement, related to this DA statement, it's found in The Signs of the Times, December 30, 1889. (oh btw, God wispered to me that I should read everything very very slowly, i mean thoughtfully and slowly and consider every word printed. I suggest this for you too). : " ...The angels scribe honor and glory to Christ, for even they are NOT SECURE EXCEPT by looking to the sufferings of the Son of God. It is thru the EFFICACY OF THE CROSS that the angels of heaven are GUARDED FROM APOSTASY. WITHOUT THE CROSS THEY WOULD BE NO MORE SECURE AGAINST EVIL THAN WERE THE ANGELS BEFORE THE FALL OF SATAN. Angelic"   ponder it for a while, let God speak. I'll continue in the next post with another DA statement. God bless you.

[Gregory Matthews]

Ucantblost, in an earlier statement said the following about Ellen White:

Quote

So, within this 2nd paragraph she says this; ''I hav declared unto them thy name, 'merciful and gracious,long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,''  

The common person reading the above quote would think that Ellen White made the quoted statement, and that would be incorrect.  If you check the original statement as Ucantblost cited it, you will see that Ellen White attributed that statement to Christ.    In Adventist thought, Ellen  White is not equivalent to Christ.  We do not attribute words that Christ said to her.

So, where  did that statement come from?  It probably came from John 17:26, although it may be elsewhere, I have not checked everywhere that it could be.  At this time, I have not checked other references that Ucantblost has made.

Anyway, Let us be a bit more careful, please, in citing Ellen White.  

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Ucantblost has also cited Ellen White in an article that she wrote which was published in the December 30, 1889 issue of The Signs of the Times.  I think that it is helpful to see the context in which EGW wrote so that we do not think she was writing on some other issue and focus on a singe sentence to the exclusion of the everything else that she said.

So, the following in the complete paragraph that Ucantblost cited:

The death of Christ upon the cross made sure the destruction of him who has the power of death, who was the originator of sin. When Satan is destroyed, there will be none to tempt to evil; the atonement will never need to be repeated; and there will be no danger of another rebellion in the universe of God. That which alone can effectually restrain from sin in this world of darkness, will prevent sin in heaven. The significance of the death of Christ will be seen by saints and angels. Fallen men could not have a home in the paradise of God without the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Shall we not then exalt the cross of Christ? The angels ascribe honor and glory to Christ, for even they are not secure except by looking to the sufferings of the Son of God. It is through the efficacy of the cross that the angels of heaven are guarded from apostasy. Without the cross they would be no more secure against evil than were the angels before the fall of Satan. Angelic perfection failed in heaven. Human perfection failed in Eden, the paradise of bliss. All who wish for security in earth or heaven must look to the Lamb of God. The plan of salvation, making manifest the justice and love of God, provides an eternal safeguard against defection in unfallen worlds, as well as among those who shall be redeemed by the blood of the Lamb. Our only hope is perfect trust in the blood of Him who can save to the uttermost all that come unto God by Him. The death of Christ on the cross of Calvary is our only hope in this world, and it will be our theme in the world to come. Oh, we do not comprehend the value of the atonement! If we did, we would talk more about it. The gift of God in his beloved Son was the expression of an incomprehensible love. It was the utmost that God could do to preserve the honor of his law, and still save the transgressor. Why should man not study the theme of redemption? It is the greatest subject that can engage the human mind. If men would contemplate the love of Christ, displayed in the cross, their faith would be strengthened to appropriate the merits of his shed blood, and they would be cleansed and saved from sin. There are many who will be lost, because they depend on legal religion, or mere repentance for sin. But repentance for sin alone cannot work the salvation of any soul. Man cannot be saved by his own works. Without Christ it is impossible for him to render perfect obedience to the law of God; and heaven can never be gained by an imperfect obedience; for this would place all heaven in jeopardy, and make possible a second rebellion. { ST December 30, 1889, par. 4 }

 

[ucantblost]

36 minutes ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Ucantblost, in an earlier statement said the following about Ellen White:

The common person reading the above quote would think that Ellen White made the quoted statement, and that would be incorrect.  If you check the original statement as Ucantblost cited it, you will see that Ellen White attributed that statement to Christ.    In Adventist thought, Ellen  White is not equivalent to Christ.  We do not attribute words that Christ said to her.

So, where  did that statement come from?  It probably came from John 17:26, although it may be elsewhere, I have not checked everywhere that it could be.  At this time, I have not checked other references that Ucantblost has made.

Anyway, Let us be a bit more careful, please, in citing Ellen White.  

 

oh i see what you mean, i should have checked it 3 times    i'll be more careful not to do this again, thanks for the heads up. I should have said ''As Christ said'  , that would have been more accurate. Thanks

[ucantblost]

so the statement made by her; ''It is through the efficacy of the cross that the angels of heaven are guarded from apostasy. Without the cross they would be no more secure against evil than were the angels before the fall of Satan''  makes it appear that without the cross absolutely none of the angels (or unfallen beings) would be ''safe'' from apostasy. We SDAs believe that  ''sin will not raise its ugly head a 2nd time'' right? Well, without the Cross that prophecy by God could not have been made. The Cross was an absolute necessity , it appears, since the very first Angel was created, or whoever was created first. Apostasy was always a possibility before the cross. "Perfection failed'' in heaven according to Ellen, 'perfection failed on earth' according to Ellen. As i contemplated this God brought to my mind the enormous necessity of the Cross. Since the very first created being 'free will' made the cross absolutely necessary. Or at least it seems this way to me. So, Christ came to ''reveal Gods character'' to the 'angels, other worlds and mankind'.  Angels including Lucifer and those who sided with him. Lucifer did not 'know' God. ''this is life eternal , that they might KNOW THEE the only true God and Jesus Christ...." John 17.  Lucifer and all the rest of them did not know God, obviously, according to chapter 1 of Desire of Ages. Putting her Signs of the Times statement together with the DA statement, The reason the universe could not be ''safe'' from apostasy without Jesus becoming a lowly human (we cant even imagine the degree of lowlyness for Jesus) and living and dying on the cross was that Gods true character of self sacrificing love must be seen and understood by the Cosmos, including Lucifer. He didnt know God. This is part of the bigger picture God was unfolding to me. Even if Lucifer had never rebelled, if there had been no defection among the angels and  Adam had never sinned, not one single being was 'safe' against apostasy.  One more  EGW statement quoting Christ. DAp722 , it's the last words of Jesus to Judas as Judas looked with bewilderment at Jesus  ''entreating Him to deliver Himself'': "jesus spoke no word of condemnation. He looked pityingly upon Judas, and said, FOR THIS HOUR came I into the world''.  Jesus admits that He came to this earth ''for this (very) hour''  and i would add ''for this very event''!  Let this one sink in. If Judas would have meditated on those words i think God could have opened his understanding to the significance of that statement and he would have felt a gratitude that God allowed him to follow such a path to bring about the salvation of the world. The ''cross'' was an absolute necessity remember, or else nobody , on any planet, in the entire cosmos of creation would have been ''safeguarded'' against Apostasy. Judas couldn't even begin to fathom the 'implications' of Christs statement, not even Jesus' own mother and disciples , nor John ''the disciple whom Jesus loved'' could fathom such an act by Jesus. They were all dumbfounded. Jesus on the cross was the only ''hope of safety  for the Universe'. It will be studied for eternity by the Angels and unfallen beings and mankind. Eternity is a very long time wouldnt you say? heavy.

[GayatfootofCross]

1 hour ago, ucantblost said:

oh i see what you mean, i should have checked it 3 times    i'll be more careful not to do this again, thanks for the heads up. I should have said ''As Christ said'  , that would have been more accurate. Thanks

If  you were saying I have a beautiful mind to me I will blush and say Golly.

But seriously I grew up thinking God hated the likes of me (and o how i hated Him back ) and even jumped  from my parents two story house roof at 15 (face first)  with such anguish and hopelessness.

I survived!

My church painted the worst picture of God and I sincerely didnt know anything else.

I now see God as the most beautiful Being in all the universe cause of universalistic people and sermons.

It is hard to find a non condemning God anywhere else.

though Ty Gibson comes close

 

What kind of fruit does it produce? Is the question Ive been asking myself when studying all kinds of matters.

I posted this a couple of years ago.

When we fully realize what a wonderful God we have you take another look at scriptures with this in mind.

1 Cor 13:4-6

God is patient with us All, God is kind to All.
God does not envy,
God does not boast, God is not conceited,
 God  is not disrespectful to us All,
God is not selfish, God does not get angry,
God does not keep a record of our wrongs.

...

These truths of God relaxes you. It gives peace to you. It heals the heart towards HIM.

 

[ucantblost]

you have a great outlook on life and your walk with God is such a encouragment to the wayfarer. Thanks for sharing that part of your journey. Peace and Love is what Jesus is the Prince of. You found it!

david

[ucantblost]

49 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Your agenda here is painfully obvious, and so on that basis, I would say that nothing said so far, is  *premature*  Also, rather than chiding us for not asking you for *evidence* and such, why dont you just provide it. Anyone who cared about a sensible and fair discussion would have posted references of some kind, but in the OP for this topic, you basically did a drive-by shoot it down comment, that is not true. You have a choice to make this personal, and continue to post vague insinuations and denigrations, or you can provide clear evidence for what you stated in the OP At any rate, its not hard to see your agenda here. Many have come before and tried to *straighten us out.* like this.

im wondering how you can say it's not true without examining any of my evidence?  not chiding just mentioning that it doesnt make sense to me. Saying a statement is not true without hearing my case does seem like a premature judgment to me, but i've been wrong a time or two, and i could be here. I guess i could also ask you why you say 'not true' also, yes? i'm sure you have your evidence for your position. I will take your advice tho, i just didnt want to be a 'blogger' without someone wanting to actually hear it, out of curiosity or any other interest. Thanks.

[GayatfootofCross]

14 minutes ago, ucantblost said:

im wondering how you can say it's not true without examining any of my evidence?  not chiding just mentioning that it doesnt make sense to me. Saying a statement is not true without hearing my case does seem like a premature judgment to me, but i've been wrong a time or two, and i could be here. I guess i could also ask you why you say 'not true' also, yes? i'm sure you have your evidence for your position. I will take your advice tho, i just didnt want to be a 'blogger' without someone wanting to actually hear it, out of curiosity or any other interest. Thanks.

It is interesting how we all see things differently and I appreciate the humility you share.

I personally didn't notice any degradation of EGW.

I love The Desire of Ages!

And you being new and me who have been here for a few years .. I can welcome you. ( i see you only have a few posts in)

I sometimes see this forum as a Church foyer where SDA's or people looking in can talk before go into the sanctuary.

We have the privilege to love and to be kind to strangers no matter what they think or believe.

That's the kind reception  God loves regardless where we people are coming from or where we are at in their understanding.

after all ..This is a Christian Forum!

 

 

 

[ucantblost]

thanks Gayatfootofcross, now i feel more at ease. I really dont want to offend anyone or make them think i'm anti-sda or any such thing. God still keeps me bound to our significance in this world as a body of unique beliefs. especially the health message. I just returned from watching ''Jumanji'' , God brought still another message to me in that movie, another picture of how all of humanity will end up loving and enjoying one another on the new earth. I will explain in my next post. I need to get into some hot water, it's 40 where i live. later

peace and love

david

[GayatfootofCross]

5 hours ago, GayatfootofCross said:

I now see God as the most beautiful Being in all the universe cause of universalistic people and sermons.

 

 

 

I have to amend ^

I now see God as the most beautiful Being in all the universe cause of my studies in the past few years and the universalistic people and sermons (as of late) really helped me laser focused some scriptures ive gave a passing glance.

i really have a hard time putting my thoughts on type!

 

[ucantblost]

that makes sense, thanks for bringing that to my attention, i'm not a pro by any means when it comes to online communication. Universalism to me means simply God has taken care of the 'eternal death thanks to sin' problem. All angels, all of them, have been rescued from the grips of that ''mystery of iniquity'' and ''sin'' when Jesus died. Thats what God has led me to see in DA and other of her books and the bible. 

[ucantblost]

Say Wonderer,  how do you understand then the line ''Jesus came to earth to REVEAL God both to angels and men. And with that the part in Signs of times ''the cosmos was not safe against apostasy until Jesus died on the cross.?  Also Jesus saying to Judas  '''its for this hour i came to this earth''.  thanks

[GayatfootofCross]

9 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

I like this!

 

You know there is a few people here who know what ive been going thru and in this ..God's love for me have been becoming more personalized

in my heart ..so in my big picture mind in relation to this beautiful topic  ..i put this up.

 

(the first meme i ever made)

 

 

 

[GayatfootofCross]

On 12/27/2017 at 1:17 AM, GayatfootofCross said:

pssst ..they can tell the difference when approached  and o so weary on both fronts.

..........................................

 

Sometimes I wish I can take back the things I say.

..whether it's true or not.

[phkrause]

On 12/27/2017 at 11:33 PM, The Wanderer said:

The Bible is in agreement with Mrs White's statement about "the law of life for earth and heaven:"

Actually I'd say it the other way, Mrs White is in agreement with the Bible.

[Sauliga]

On 27/12/2017 at 5:52 PM, The Wanderer said:

We are glad to have you on this forum no matter what you are or are not. The person in the OP has made a remark about Ellen G White and the book Desire Of Ages that is not true, and seems intended only to denigrate. The church you describe my friend, the Universalist Church you describe, would be, by their very nature, as you just described them,  NOT likely do what the OP did.

On a related note; I rejoice with you that you are finding people who you can develop healthy relationships with. Thats a good thing!

 

 

On 27/12/2017 at 5:44 PM, GayatfootofCross said:

I really appreciate this.

I myself have been finding people on the internet who are Universalist in the last few months. Out of all the christian groups I have encountered ..these people are much kinder

and least judgmental to me. It has come to be somewhat of a sanctuary.

I am not a complete universalist for I believe God has given us the power of choice to love Him or not. But I tell ya ... A place where they love  and talk about Jesus and painting a picture of a God is bigger is quite fetching .. I find they generally dont dog themselves and more trusting and relaxed in His grace and it shows up online how they approach strangers.  Wow praise GOD!

Follow the fruit!

I have been saying this for a very long time......  GOD IS BETTER THAN WE THINK!

Follow the truth..than the fruit. God is love, it is his nature...ours is to accept or reject..

[GayatfootofCross]

7 hours ago, Sauliga said:

 

Follow the truth..than the fruit. God is love, it is his nature...ours is to accept or reject..

Hello. The truth is Jesus( The Way The Truth and the Light) and He said " By their fruit you shall know them" !   HE   is    serious!

Rejoice!

And Welcome to the forum!