Liar, Liar!

[JoeMo]

"You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor." (Ex. 20:18)

Most Christians believe that this commandment means "Don't lie".  Yet, in scripture, there appears to be many occasions in which the heroes of the Bible lied - and sometimes where it even appeared that God sanctioned the lying.

- Abraham lied when he told Abimelek that Sara was his sister (Gen. 20:2)

- Rahab lied to the King of Jericho (Josh 2:4-6)

- Moses lied to Pharoah several times (Ex. 5:1; 7:16; Ex. 8:1; 8:20; 8:26; 10:3; 10:25)

- Michal lied to King Saul to protect David (I Samuel 19:11-17) NOTE: This passage also described the presence of an idol in David's house.)

- Jonathan lied to explain David's absence from the New Moon feast (1 Samuel 20:28)

It's easy to wonder if "lying" is a matter of situational ethics.  Is it okay to lie to someone if it protects them or another person?  Is telling "little white lies" to prevent hurting someone's feelings okay?  Almost all of us do that.  We tell people "we already have plans" or "I'm not feeling well" when we simply don't feel like going out with someone.  Whenever someone tells me "maybe" or "I'll get back with you" when I invite them to a party or dinner, I know that that means "no".

Or, is "lying" different than "bearing false witness"?

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

Which of the above "examples" would you say God "supported" the "lying?"

Ex. 7:16;  8:1; 8:20 and 9:1; for starters.

[JoeMo]

53 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Exo 7:16  Tell him, "The LORD God of the Hebrews sent me to order you to release his people, so they can worship him in the desert. But until now, you have paid no attention.

The way I see it, God is directing Moses to imply to Pharaoh "we'll be back" instead of "we're leaving forever".  Isn't deception a form of lying?

In the other (non-Moses) examples; even if the lies were not "encouraged" by God, my read infers that the lies were okay.  For example, Rahab was rewarded with being in the lineage of Christ for her deception.

[GayatfootofCross]

Man judges from the outward.. God looks upon the heart. It is about the intent.

God is relational and when we see the law from that perceptive it isn't so black n white nor cut n dry.

And never forget we can never compel the conscience in this.

To some they take it as never under any circumstances say what they believe is not 100 % true.

To others ... well you get the picture as demonstrated in the OP.

 

[GayatfootofCross]

3 hours ago, GayatfootofCross said:

Man judges from the outward.. God looks upon the heart. It is about the intent.

God is relational and when we see the law from that perceptive it isn't so black n white nor cut n dry.

And never forget we can never compel the conscience in this.

To some they take it as never under any circumstances say what they believe is not 100 % true.

To others ... well you get the picture as demonstrated in the OP.

 

I want to add that we always can educate the conscience in these matters as well as ALL other things.

 

"To some they take it as never under any circumstances say what they believe is not 100 % true." -

I have read at least four books by Corrie Ten Boom and ...

" In her book, The Hiding Place, Corrie Ten Boom relates an incident in Holland during the Nazi occupation in WWII. The Nazis were rounding up young men for work duties at munitions factories. Corrie was visiting with her sister-in-law, Nollie, when her two nephews, potential labor candidates, came rushing into the house with ashen faces wanting to hide because the Germans were coming.

Nollie had a small potato cellar under the floor. Quickly, they opened the trapdoor and the two boys jumped in. They covered the trapdoor with a rug, and the kitchen table was placed over the spot. The ladies quickly covered the table with a long tablecloth and set tea places for five.

Suddenly, the Germans burst in with rifles leveled, commanding everyone not to move. They asked Cocky, Corrie’s niece and the sister of the hidden brothers, where their men were.

The family had been brought up as Christians. As such, they were taught never to lie. Now was a time of testing in this crisis of conscience. What should Cocky do or say? Corrie believed that in such a case, it was right to lie.

Cocky tried evading and stalling, but the soldier pressed her.

“Where are your men? Where are your brothers?” he demanded.

Cocky continued to stall.

“Do you have brothers?” he asked.

She admitted she had three brothers and, upon demand, gave their ages – 21, 19, and 18. Continuing to avoid disclosure of her two hidden brothers, she said one brother was in theological college. The soldiers then demanded where the other two were.

What would she do? Would she lie or tell the truth, as she believed God would have her do? Again, they asked, “Where are they?”

“Why, they’re under the table,” she replied.

The Germans approached the table. One readied his rifle while the other tore back the tablecloth. Immediately Cocky “burst into spasms of high hysterical laughter,” as Corrie put it. The soldiers were offended, thinking she was mocking them, and having already searched the rest of the house, they left. " https://johnib.wordpress.com/2012/10/13/corrie-ten-boom-on-telling-the-truth-and-forgiveness/

 

Oh God what faith to have!

 

 

[pierrepaul]

The commandment speaks of bearing false witness against a neighbour. Is this then a proscription against perjury in legal matters only? Or does it cover every day speech? What about meaningless banter among friends? My father loves to play "April Fool's" jokes. Is this forbidden by the commandment?

The commandment covers speech concerning a "neighbour"? This raises the question of "who is my neighbour?" Did Jesus' parable of the Good Samaritan answer this question for all time in all situations? Or does the ambit of "neighbour" have a different scope in the context of the mosaic commandment?

The commandment proscribes false witness "against" a neighbour. What about untruths in favour of a neighbour? What about untruths that are neutral, neither for nor against the neighbour?

There are plenty of biblical texts outside of the decalogue where lying is condemned without qualification (e.g. Proverbs 6:16-19). So perhaps the true sense of the commandment is to forbid all lying.

It may also be useful to examine what it means to "lie"? Is it only a lie where one deliberately pronounces an untruth? If one utters an intentionally vague statement, and one is aware that such statement is being misinterpreted, and one takes no steps to correct it, is this a "lie"? To continue the thought experiment, suppose a clerk at the retail store errs and undercharges for an item. Is it "theft" to remain silent? If it is theft to remain silent in the face of an obvious error in one's favour, is it "lying" to remain silent in the face of an obvious misinterpretation of our words?

Now let's go further. What about the case where one's statement is truthful, but worded so as to deceive? For example, suppose a man has gone golfing. Just as he tees up for the drive, his wife calls. The man doesn't answer. When he gets home and his wife asked him why he didn't answer, he says he was "driving". Is this a lie? The well-known case was President Clinton's responses regarding his relationship with Ms Lewinski. He stated that "there 'is' no inappropriate relationship". At the time he uttered these words, the relationship had terminated and therefore there was no relationship, appropriate or otherwise - truthful, but intended to deceive. I know a man who is presently a clinical psychologist, but has a D.Div. from a previous career. He uses the title "Doctor" which he has earned, but many people assume that his doctorate is in the field of mental health (MD or PhD). Lying or not lying? In many jurisdictions the basic law degree is a J.D., which is a doctorate and which would entitle the holder to use the title "doctor". However in the USA it is not customary for lawyers without PhDs to call themselves "doctor". If a J.D. holder calls himself "doctor" is he lying? What about the fellow who has been on the job for exactly 2 years, and then constantly speaks about his "years of experience"?

What about if someone else unwittingly makes a false statement in one's presence, and one does nothing to correct it. My cousin (a man) is a nurse. Elderly patients occasionally refer to him as "doctor". Must he correct every instance of this behaviour? A colleague of mine once unwittingly overstated my experience and qualifications to a prospective client - what ought to have been my response?

Also, remember that approximation, exaggeration, hyperbole, understatement, metaphor, sarcasm and other figures of speech are part of language - it is not "lying" to speak or write using such well-known and accepted literary devises, unless the context requires precision. It is not "lying" to say "I received a thousand emails today" when one really only received 248 of them - or is it? If an item costs me $48, is it lying to say it cost $50? Probably not. Is it lying to turn in an expense report (where accuracy and precision are expected) claiming $50? Probably.

[JoeMo]

Pierrepaul,

Great post!  You stated my case much better than I did.  All your questions are pertinent.  Thanks for your contribution here.

[GayatfootofCross]

When we see the relational aspect (we serve a God who is all about relationships) it gives us breath to chime in on all these matters closer to God's heart.

The Law of Love is the framework here. Not whatever else people put on it.

[LifeHiscost]

On 1/10/2018 at 2:04 PM, GayatfootofCross said:

When we see the relational aspect (we serve a God who is all about relationships) it gives us breath to chime in on all these matters closer to God's heart.

The Law of Love is the framework here. Not whatever else people put on it.

There is more credence to your comment about relationship with our Father in Heaven when one considers this comment.

¹² So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. ¹³ For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment...James 2

¹⁴ What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? James 2

AS well as:

¹⁷ Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

¹⁸ But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your^[d] works, and I will show you my faith by my^[e] works. ¹⁹ You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! ²⁰ But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?^{[f] 21} Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? ²² Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? ²³ And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”^[g] And he was called the friend of God. ²⁴ You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

²⁵ Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

²⁶ For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2

And if you wish to have a free relationship;

31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

John 8

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves!    

 

 

[JoeMo]

Thanks, my friend! I submitted this topic to start a debate; and it worked (at least with you).

You have taken this precisely to the point I hoped someone would see.  I would propose that people like Moses, Jonathan, and Rahab who may have withheld the clear truth for the sake of fulfilling God's will or as a demonstration of faith are rewarded for doing His will or demonstrating their faith.  None of the examples I gave showed any evidence of harming God's people or rebelling against God.  Like you said - scripture never even uses the word "lie" in these instances. Like you said, God rewarded them for their faith.

What if a woman came up to you and said "there is a crazy man chasing me!  Please don't say you saw me or that you know where I am!"  Then she runs down an alley.  Seconds later, an obviously out-of-control guy comes up to you and asks "Did you see some dumb [expletive deleted] come by here? I'm gonna kill her!"  Do you protect her by pleading ignorance; or tell him the truth?  I would plead ignorance; and I don't think God would count that as a "sin" against me.

[B/W Photodude]

5 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Do you protect her by pleading ignorance; or tell him the truth?

Why would you feel obligated to even answer the question?

[JoeMo]

On 1/15/2018 at 5:53 PM, The Wanderer said:

So, you cornered me. You set a trap for me. You deceived me. Did you lie to me?  lol

I am a terrible sinner my brother.  I hope you can forgive me.  A little motivation - God forgives those who forgive others! 

[JoeMo]

In 1 Samuel 20 and 21, we read of David's deception of the high priest Ahimelek at Nob.  David told the priest that he was on a secret mission from Saul; and needed food and a weapon.  Actually David was fleeing from Saul.  Believing David, the priest gave him bread from the altar and the sword of Goliath.  When Saul found out, he was so angry that he had all the people (including all 85 priests) in Nob killed.  That was a terrible consequence of a lie.  Yet scripture never condemns this lie and its consequences.  Maybe the consequences speak for themselves concerning the unanticipated results of David's lie?

On the other hand, Ahimelek was a descendant of Eli and his wicked son Phinehas.  God pronounced back in Judges that Eli's offspring would not succeed him as high priest.  Was David carrying out God's justice on the offspring of Eli?  Or was it Saul's free will - encouraged by the evil spirit within him - that caused the slaughter at Nob?

Have any of our "little white lies" ever had devastating unanticipated consequences on others?

[JoeMo]

On 1/26/2018 at 10:49 PM, The Wanderer said:

OK, this will be the most diplomatic post I have made in a while here.

Thank you for your diplomacy; although I don't know if that question offended you or if I just stated it poorly.  It was meant to be a rhetorical question.  Maybe instead of a question, I should have stated that I know some of the "little white lies" I have told have ended up with quite adverse unintended consequences. Even little excuses like saying "oh, we just finished eating" when someone calls who I don't particularly care for invites us to dinned at a restaurant that I don't like has had adverse unintended consequences.  I truly make an effort any more to be totally honest and transparent with people without being "brutally honest" if you get my drift.  I know I hate to be lied to or deceived with half-truths.