Not UNDER the Law

[8thdaypriest]

I would appreciate some comments on the meaning of Paul's expression - "not under the law".   At present, my understanding is that "under the law" means "under" the condemnation of the law = under the curse of the law, which means condemned to death.  It does not mean that only those who are under the law must keep the law, or that those who are "not under the law" are not expected to obey the commandments of God.   

Romans 3:19 "Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;" (Rom 3:19 NAU)

?? So the law does NOT speak those those no longer "under the law" ??

Galatians 5:18 "But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." (NKJ)

1 Corinthians 9:20 "and to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews; to those who are under the law, as under the law, that I might win those who are under the law;" (NKJ)

Paul seems to be saying that only "the Jews" were "under the law".  But I thought that all mankind were under the law, because "all have sinned".  If Christ also was "born under the law", then what does that mean?  Christ never sinned.  He was not born condemned to death.  And I don't believe babies are born condemned.  They have not sinned - yet.  I don't believe the original sin of Adam is inherited by all his descendants. 

Galatians 4:4 "But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law," (NKJ)

The law says - You sin, you die.  Is that what it means to be under the the law?

Galatians 4:5 "to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship." (NIV)

It sounds like those redeemed are no longer "under the law".  Rather - they are adopted sons of God. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JoeMo]

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God." (Rom 3:19)

"For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!(Rom. 6:14-15)"You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[a] 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?" Gal. 3:1-5)

"You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. (Gal. 5:4)

These and many other verses indicate to me that we are all condemned under the Law - none of us is any more holy or unholy than anyone else.  Romans 7 says the Law tells us what evil is; but it can't save us.  Only the grace and blood of Jesus can save any of us - and all of us if we choose Him.  We are all condemned under the Law; but Jesus paid the legal penalty for all of us; so the debt has been paid; and our condemnation is lifted.  The freedom we have from not being under the penalty of the Law should move us to loving obedience.  I don't "have to" keep the Sabbath any more; I "get to" keep the Sabbath.  What a blessing!  I don't have to study God's word any more; I get to study God's word.  What a blessing!  I don't "have to come before God in prayer any more; I get to come before God in prayer.  What a blessing!

[8thdaypriest]

The Spirit within - enables.  Got that. 

I realize - believe me I do - that no one can keep the Law, unless filled with the Spirit.  Since I'm not perfect - yet - I must not yet be completely filled with the Spirit - yet. 

Do I then still need the "schoolmaster" to keep me on a leash ?  I think so.  Does that mean  I am still "under the Law" ?? 

Why does the Law speak only to those under it?  Maybe BECAUSE they still need a teacher.    They are following the Law, rather than Christ.  They hope to be "saved" BECAUSE they keep the Law.  We realize that Christ saves, not obedience to the Law.   Those indwelt with the Spirit of Christ, do naturally the things of the Law - without the schoolmaster - police.  

So - realizing that I am NOT "there" yet - that I still need instruction (along with the Spirit of Christ) - could I then say that I am still "under the Law" ??  

Seems the question is - do we keep the Law because we FEAR the judgment of God, or because we LOVE God ?? 

Those who are AFRAID of God, are "under" the schoolmaster.  Those who (by the indwelling Spirit) LOVE God, are not "under" the schoolmaster. 

[8thdaypriest]

Parents are "the schoolmaster" (law enforcer) for their kids.

The local police, and sheriff and county court is "the enforcer" to make sure we "keep the law". 

One day soon - we will no longer NEED "the enforcer" to see that we keep the Law. 

[JoeMo]

2 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

One of the laws involved with my "what if scenario" would be the commendment (law) that reads "thou shalt not steal."  Why would the Bible tell us that we dont have to do that law?

Being under grace rather than the Law does not mean you are free to do whatever you want whenever you want to do it.  Romans specifically says that we definitely should not sin that grace will abound even more.  Under the Spirit, you don't need a Law to tell you that stealing is evil; because you won't want to steal.  So you are free of that Law.

[JoeMo]

Hi Rachel,

Do you believe you are saved?  Are you assured of your own salvation, in spite of your "flaws"?  Do you still need a "schoolmaster" rather than a Father?  If not, you need to re-think that (he said respectfully).  I am a very jaded individual.  Confessing the specific sins of my past would likely get me kicked off this forum and maybe even arrested (thank God for a statute of limitations!).  I am still quite "flawed" using the Law as a standard.

Yet, I feel totally assured that I am saved - solely by the blood of Jesus.  I MUST believe that Jesus is Who He says He is, that He's done what He said He's done, and will do what He has promised to do.  Without that hope, I KNOW I'm doomed; and I might as well just get it over with now.

[8thdaypriest]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

Being under grace rather than the Law does not mean you are free to do whatever you want whenever you want to do it.  Romans specifically says that we definitely should not sin that grace will abound even more.  Under the Spirit, you don't need a Law to tell you that stealing is evil; because you won't want to steal.  So you are free of that Law.

In other words - you really ARE free to do whatever you want.   You won't WANT bad things. 

[8thdaypriest]

2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Hi Rachel,

Do you believe you are saved?  Are you assured of your own salvation, in spite of your "flaws"?  Do you still need a "schoolmaster" rather than a Father?  If not, you need to re-think that (he said respectfully).  I am a very jaded individual.  Confessing the specific sins of my past would likely get me kicked off this forum and maybe even arrested (thank God for a statute of limitations!).  I am still quite "flawed" using the Law as a standard.

Yet, I feel totally assured that I am saved - solely by the blood of Jesus.  I MUST believe that Jesus is Who He says He is, that He's done what He said He's done, and will do what He has promised to do.  Without that hope, I KNOW I'm doomed; and I might as well just get it over with now. 

Yes - I believe I am saved for His kingdom, and will be saved from the presence of evil and the Evil One - this despite present flaws. 

We watched the old movie last evening - "The Nuns Story".   I can relate much better to the character these days, than when I first saw it.  (I thought her pie-eyed and naive, when she joined the convent.)   Her struggle to be "perfect" and to overcome all "self".  She found it impossible, and finally left the convent.  This after serving years in the Congo as a nurse.   If she couldn't "do it perfectly" she would leave.  I wanted to tell her that Jesus loves us, and He will perfect us.  Our job is just to believe Him.  Now she was definitely struggling "under the Law" - not God's law entirely (like Sabbath, or prayers to the saints) but certainly the Catholic Church's version of "the Law" - and her own version, the one she thought she should live up to.

I'm just looking for a SIMPLE explanation of Paul's phrase - "under the law".   What does it mean - to be "under the Law".   Jesus was "born under the Law". 

Does "under the Law" mean:  You sin-You die?   No escape.  No mercy.  Does it mean living with GOD, and HIS LAW - without Christ and His Spirit?  

To be "under the law" IS to be without Christ Jesus.  

What did it mean for Christ to be "born under the Law".   Does it mean "the law of sin and death" (sin always results in death) was in operation - but without any savior available?   IF Jesus had sinned, He would have died eternally.  There was no savior - to save Christ from death, IF He sinned. 

Romans 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."

By the operation of one law - I have been freed from another law.  

The "law of sin and death" - THAT is "the Law" that I am no longer "under".  

 "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ" - THIS is the Law I now live "under" - also called "under grace". 

Romans 6:14 "For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace." 

I am still living UNDER a law - just a different law - "the law of the Spirit of life".  

But is it really a different law?  Both are ultimately one law - God's law.  They are the way things work.  We talk about "the law of gravity" or "the second law of thermodynamics".  They explain how different things work, but both are ultimately the law of God's creation.   

Jesus was perfect by the power of His Father, who dwelt IN HIM.   So even Jesus (the man) didn't do it all by Himself.  He had help (except during the final hours of His crucifixion).

Hope I'm making sense here.   I look for simple explanations. 

If it's a LAW - that the Spirit will bring about Christ's perfection in me - then it's a sure thing.  As sure as sunrise tomorrow.  

But the timing is not given.  Christ will bring this to pass, in His way, in His time. 

[JoeMo]

2 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

What if you are wrong?

Then I will either burn or be corrected when I get to the Kingdom.  I believe God is looking for reasons to save us, not condemn us: so I believe the latter.

[Ron Amnsn]

On 5/5/2018 at 5:49 PM, 8thdaypriest said:

I'm just looking for a SIMPLE explanation of Paul's phrase - "under the law".

There is no simple explanation. 

Paul used that phrase in several different ways, depending on which law or aspect of law he was discussing.  In a couple places the preposition translated as "under" is a different Greek word than in the other places.  And Greek prepositions have several meanings from which the translators choose the meaning that they prefer.  That would be fine if they held the same beliefs as the Bible authors, however very few Bible translators (or Christians) would echo Paul's testimony -- "I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets," (Acts 24:14 NIV) so of course they don't consistently translate or interpret Paul's writings in a way that agrees with the Old Testament.

When Paul was discussing the methods available to adopt a Gentile believer into the Jewish community during the era when "the Way" was still a sect within Judaism (Acts 24:5, 14), I believe that "under the law" referred to the requirements imposed on Gentile proselytes by the traditions of Jewish oral law.  Jewish tradition required that Gentiles become members under the terms of traditional oral law that governed Gentile proselytes. (see the Talmud, etc.)  The Jewish believers were already members of the Jewish community by birth under the laws of inheritance, by which they inherited from Abraham and their forefathers the covenants and promises of God.   Paul was teaching something different for Gentile believers -- that they become members of the Commonwealth of Israel by virtue of becoming (by faith in Jesus) a purchased bondservant of Jesus under the terms of Abraham's covenant of promise, which are found in Genesis 17 (see Galatians 3).

Keep in mind that when a Pharisee said, "a Gentile must be circumcised," he meant that the Gentile had to comply with all the man-made requirements of traditional Jewish oral law before he could actually participate in circumcision and be considered a "saved" member of the congregation, a process that took months or years.  A Pharisee talking about circumcision wasn't talking about Abraham's kind of circumcision (and may have believed anachronistically that Abraham himself followed all the man-made traditions about circumcision that were first developed centuries after Abraham was dead). 

Paul's belief and practice regarding circumcision for believers is illustrated by his circumcision of Timothy as they prepared to take to the congregations of believers (Acts 16) the decision of the Jerusalem Council regarding circumcision that had just been made in Acts 15.

[8thdaypriest]

On 5/5/2018 at 11:27 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

Romans 3:19 "Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;" (Rom 3:19 NAU)

This verse hit me in a new way.   The law "speaks to" those under it - so that "EVERY MOUTH" may be closed (have no excuse) and ALL THE WORLD may become accountable".  

That means every person who has ever lived was at one time - "under the law".  

Which means the law - referred to in this passage, must have existed from the creation of human beings.  

Which means "the law" Paul speaks of - is "the law of sin and death".   The law that says, "You sin - you die."   That law has existed from Eden.  

Jesus was "born under the law".   Which says that Jesus COULD HAVE  sinned.   

Those "in Christ", Paul says, "are under grace", and are "not under the law".   (Romans 6:15  "we are not under law but under grace")

How would grace render us "not under the law"?  

Romans 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death." (NKJ)

If we are FREE FROM a law, then we're certainly NOT "under" it.   (Those who have entered into Christ, no longer live "under"  the law of death as the sure curse for transgression against God.) 

The grace of God, offered through Jesus Christ, has allowed us access to "the law of the Spirit of life".   

Without that "Spirit of life" we are certainly all doomed to death, for "all have sinned".  

[8thdaypriest]

I had always wondered what Paul meant by "not under the law".   Don't remember ever hearing an explanation that made sense.   Could be my fault.  I wasn't listening much in my earlier days.  Now I think I've found an explanation that makes sense - for me.  This explanation does not invalidate the 10 Commandments, or other laws given through Moses. 

[8thdaypriest]

If "all the world" is either "under the law" or "under grace", then who are the people "outside the law" ?

    1 Corinthians 9:21 “To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law) so that I might win those outside the law” (NRS).

Are those "outside the law" - the Gentiles - who were ignorant of "the Law" of God?  

[JoeMo]

If we as believers are no longer under (or free from) the Law, isn't that the same as being outside the law?  Are there still laws we who are free from the law are still under - like "Love God and love your neighbor?" "Do to others as you want them to do to you"? "Believe in Jesus"?" Forgive others if you want to receive forgiveness"?

[8thdaypriest]

Joe,  

We are set free from "the curse of the Law" - which is death.   

We are set free from the penalty prescribed BY the Law.   (The penalty is eternal death.)

Just because we are set free from the penalty , that does not set us free to willfully keep on sinning. 

Paul said:   "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Absolutely not!" (Rome 6:15 NET).  

To understand what is sin, one must know the law.  So we are guided by the law, but we are set free from from the eternal death penalty - when we mess up.  

[8thdaypriest]

2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

If we as believers are no longer under (or free from) the Law, isn't that the same as being outside the law? 

I see three types of people here:

1.  "under the Law"  (have rejected Christ - therefore doomed to destruction)

2.  "under grace"  (belong to Christ)

3.  "outside the Law"  ("not having the law") 

The NIV translates "outside the Law" as "those not having the law" .

1 Corinthians 9:21 "To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law), so as to win those not having the law. (NIV).

The only definition I can see for the third group is "those who live in ignorance of God and His Law".   This group is not doomed to destruction, because the death of Christ covers all sins committed in ignorance - until such time that they "see" that they have sinned against God.   

This group still has a choice to make.  To choose, they must be made aware of God and of His Law, and of the One sacrifice offered for their salvation.  

And those who die "without the Law"?  They could simply be left dead like animals, with no resurrection to judgment, but I do not believe that Jesus - who died for them - would leave them behind, when they could choose Him.    They did not CHOOSE during their lifetimes.  

It is amazing how every trail I go down, every subject - leads to three groups -  to "the rest of the dead" and the resurrection at the 8th millennium.  

[JoeMo]

16 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Just because we are set free from the penalty , that does not set us free to willfully keep on sinning. 

You should know that I understand that.  Being free from habitual sin is the result of grace and salvation; not the prerequisite.  If my life is not improving (in a spiritual sense), am I really making myself available to and responding to that saving grace?

[8thdaypriest]

36 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

If my life is not improving (in a spiritual sense), am I really making myself available to and responding to that saving grace?

Moses herded sheep for 40 years Joe.   Wonder how much "progress" he made during those years?   We are in a hurry.  God isn't.   We will have a thousand years to heal.  

[stinsonmarri]

On 5/19/2018 at 9:48 PM, Ron Amnsn said:

I'm just looking for a SIMPLE explanation of Paul's phrase - "under the law".

There is a simple answer: Obey and live; disobey and die! YAHSHUA came because the Adams did not obey the Law and they breach the Covenant (contract) that they made with HIM. The Adams lost their perfection and became a six  imperfection; instead a seven which is perfection. Poor animals had to die, they could never take way the punishment of sin. Sin is the transgression of the Law! Let's give an example:

When I get up in the morning and look at my face; its dirty. What do I need to do? Why of course wash it! My dirty face is sin, the Law is the mirror reflecting my sin. The Law can't clean my dirty face with sin. What cleans my face is a soapy wash rag. The rag represent YAHSHUA and the soapy water on the rag represents HIS BLOOD. But I have an active part, I must use the rag to wash my face. By me lifting up my hand to wash my face is grace giving to me by YAHSHUA, the rag through the soap and water! What can wash away my sins, nothing but THE BLOOD of YAHSHUA!

Here's another example:

I come to a stop sign, I have not  broken the law yet. But the sign says to stop, I pause and drive on. A police person is watching and he/she stops me. I now have come under the law! I received a ticket because I came under the law. I now must go before the judge. Now he can do two things either throw the book at me or pardon me. Now this is my first offense, my records (like what the angels keep), show I am a good citizen. I threw myself at the mercy of the court, show that I am truly sorry for coming under the law. I plead with the judge with an assurance that I will obey the law for now on. He believes me and give me mercy (that's grace). YAHSHUA told Mary HE did not condemn her, but go and SIN NO MORE!!!!!

The problem today with us, many think that sanctification is a life time. IT IS NOT!!!! If we want YAHSHUA  to save us, we must stop sinning. If we stop sinning you will not come under the Law. YAHSHUA Said be ye perfect as MY FATHER and I AM PERFECT. Most do not believe what HE Said! If any of us want to be sealed, then THE HOLY SPIRIT will do it, but we all must stop coming under the Law!! 

To the Law and to the Testimony if they speak not according to this Word, there is no light in them Isa 8:20

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed,, those keeping the Commandments of ELOHIYM, and having the Testimony of YAHSHUA MESSIAH. Rev 12:17 WOY

Blessings!