1844 by Jack Sequeira

[Robert]

part 1 of 2

On page 409 of The Great Controversy, Ellen G. White makes this statement:

• The scripture which above all others had been both the foundation and central pillar of the advent faith was the declaration: “Unto 2,300 days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed” [Dan. 8:14].

Turning to the 27 SDA Fundamental Doctrines, this is how this text is interpreted:

• In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2,300 days, He (i.e., Christ) entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement.

According to this fundamental doctrine, the anti-typical Day of Atonement and the investigative judgment of the believers began in 1844. However, ever since the early 1950s, and even earlier, this doctrine has come under fire that it is unbiblical, first from non-Adventist scholars and, more recently, from our own scholars. The objection to this truth is threefold.

1. The Linguistic Problem. The word translated “cleansed” in Dan. 8:14 (KJV) is not the same original word for “cleansed” found in Lev. 16 for the Day of Atonement. In Dan. 8:14 the word is “tsadag,” while the word used in Lev. 16 is “taheer.” Therefore, linguistically, we cannot link the cleansing of the sanctuary of Dan. 8:14 with the cleansing of the sanctuary on the Day of Atonement.

2. The Contextual Problem. In Dan. 8:9-12, Daniel describes the little horn which casts the truth of the sanctuary to the ground and prospers. Verse 13 raises the question: how long is God going to allow this? The answer is in verse 14: after 2,300 days, then the sanctuary will be “cleansed,” “restored,” “vindicated,” or “reconsecrated” (the original word could mean any of these). This answer has nothing to do with the investigative judgment of the saints.

3. The Investigative Judgment Itself. Our traditional explanation of the investigative judgment of the saints contradicts the gospel truth of justification by faith alone. Therefore this doctrine is also unbiblical.

These are all serious charges which we cannot ignore. Why? Because, as we noted, 1844 is the foundation and central pillar of our faith. To do away with 1844 is to do away with the very purpose God raised the advent movement. As one evangelical scholar stated: “If SDAs cannot prove 1844 from the Bible, they have no right to exist as a denomination.” The question we must therefore ask ourselves is, have we been following cunningly devised fables or does 1844 have a Biblical significance for our existence?

As we tackle this subject, we shall discover that 1844 is vital to our global mission, which I believe is to restore and proclaim the everlasting gospel into all the world. Even though our pioneers did not use correct Biblical rules to interpret Dan. 8:14, I honestly believe that God was behind the advent movement He raised out of the great disappointment of 1844. Therefore, what we are going to do in the next two studies is to re-examine Dan. 8:14 in its proper setting and examine it significance to us as a denomination.

Now we will examine Dan. 8:14 in the context of the entire book of Daniel, as well as in the context of chapter 8 itself. Once we do this we will be in a position to correctly interpreting Dan. 8:14, which will be our next study. Then, in our final study, we will turn to the investigative judgment an examine it in the light of the gospel truth of justification by faith alone. This is going to be heavy stuff, but I hope very profitable to our own personal faith journey as well as our mission at [this church].

In examining the entire book of Daniel, you will notice that the book is divided into two distinct parts — historical and prophetic. Since Dan. 8:14 belongs to the prophetic part, this is the section of Daniel we will consider.

In studying the prophetic parts of Daniel, we discover that certain chapters are dealing with the same kingdoms and periods of time. This is especially true of chapters 2, 7, and 8. These are all parallel passages even though different symbols are used in each chapter. Therefore, using the hermeneutic principal of parallelism or recapitulation, a principal first used by the Christian church in the 3rd century A.D., I want you to notice a very important truth that is vital to a correct interpretation of Dan. 8:14.

The Great Stone event of Dan. 2:44, 45, the Judgment scene described in Dan. 7:9-28, and the cleansing of the sanctuary of Dan. 8:14 are all parallel events that belong to the same kingdom and period of time — the establishment of the kingdom of God. This is the kingdom that will eventually replace all earthly kingdoms and will be an everlasting kingdom.

Turning to chapter 8 of Daniel, we discover that the prophet Daniel is shown four major events regarding the history of this world. Here is a brief outline of the four events he is shown and their interpretation:

1. The Ram with two horns [read Dan. 8:3, 4]. Turning to verse 20, this symbol is clearly shown to be the kingdom of Medo-Persia.

2. The male Goat with one horn [read Dan. 8:5-8]. According to verses 21, 22, this kingdom represents Greece.

3. The little horn [read Dan. 8:9-13]. When we consider the description of this little horn, as well as the interpretation in verses 23-25, we discover that it is not only a political kingdom but also a ecclestical power that cast the truth of the sanctuary to the ground and prospers.

4. Finally, in answer to the question of verse 13, Daniel is shown what will take place after the 2,300 evenings and mornings, which is translated into days in the King James Version [read Dan. 8:13, 14]. Now please note carefully that while the first three events or kingdoms are explained, no explanation is given to Daniel when it comes to the 2,300 evenings and mornings. Instead, note what Daniel is told about this fourth event and his reaction to it [read verse 26, 27].

One thing clearly stands out as we consider this fourth item, the 2,300 evenings and mornings or days, of Daniel chapter 8. Daniel is clearly told that this fourth item will take place in the distant future. Note verses 18, 19 (“the appointed time of the end”) and look again at verse 26 (“but seal up the vision, for it concerns the distant future”).

This clearly agrees with what we discovered in looking at the 2,300 days prophesy in the light of the entire prophetic section of the book of Daniel, that this prophesy is a last day event that belongs to the establishment of the kingdom of God. Hence, the interpretation that many commentaries give that this 2,300-day prophesy applies to Antiocus Epiphenies of the Greece period is incorrect, and if I may say so, the interpretation that is unbiblical.

How then are we to interpret Dan. 8:14? Did God leave Daniel in the dark regarding this prophesy? The answer is no. You will notice that in verse 27, Daniel fainted and was sick for days when the angel Gabriel told him that this prophesy was to be sealed because it had to do with the distant future. Plus, we also read in verse 27 that Daniel “was astonished or appalled by the vision, but no one understood it,” or as the NIV puts it, “it was beyond understanding.”

In our next study we will discover why Daniel fainted and was appalled at this 2,300 day prophesy and the interpretation God gave him, as a result of his sincere prayer recorded in chapter 9. What I want you to keep in mind is the fact that our contextual study of Dan. 8:14 clearly established the 2,300 days prophesy as a last day event. Next study you will hear the rest of the story.

[Robert]

part 2 of 2

“Unto 2,300 days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.”

This scripture, wrote Ellen G. White, was the foundation and central pillar of the advent faith (Great Controversy, page 409). In the last study, I touched on the linguistic and contextual problem created by our traditional interpretation of this text and which has caused many in our midst to reject 1844.

However, as I mentioned in that study, 1844 is significant to our global mission, including [our missions at individual churches]. I trust this will become crystal clear in today’s study. In the last study, I laid the foundation to what I believe is the correct interpretation of Dan. 8:14. Today we will see why 1844 is significant to our global and local church mission.

But first a quick review to jog your memory. In order to come to a correct understanding of Dan. 8:14, we first looked at this verse in the context of the entire book of Daniel. In doing so, we discovered two things:

1. That chapter 8 of Daniel belongs to the prophet section of this book, and

2. That all the prophetic chapters of Daniel — especially chapters 2, 7, and 8 — use the principal of parallelism, i.e., they repeat or recapitulate world events.

Therefore, following the hermeneutic principal of parallelism or recapitulation, we discovered that the Great Stone of Dan. 2, the Judgment scene of Dan. 7, and the cleansing of the Sanctuary of Dan. 8 all belong to the Kingdom of God period. Each of these three symbols is introduced by the word “till” (in the original), indicating the end of all human kingdoms and the ushering of God’s everlasting kingdom.

Following this, we did an exegesis of chapter 8 itself. We discovered that, of the four symbols Daniel was shown in this vision, the first three were explained, but when it came to the fourth (i.e., Dan. 8:14), all that the prophet was told was that it is true but its meaning was to be sealed since it belonged to the distant future, confirming that the cleansing or vindication of the sanctuary is a last-day event, belonging to the kingdom of God [read Dan. 8:26].

However, this news was devastating to Daniel [look at verse 27]. Why did the prophet take this information so hard? The answer is found in chapter 9 of Daniel. After wresting with Dan. 8:14 for some 13 years, Daniel finally decided to plead with God in prayer [read Dan. 9:1-3].

To appreciate Daniel’s prayer and concern, keep in mind three facts:

1. At the time that Daniel was given the vision of chapter 8, the earthly sanctuary and the city of Jerusalem were lying in ruins.

2. In Daniel’s day, nations fought in the name of their gods. Therefore, the god of the victorious nation was considered superior to the god of the defeated nation. Since Babylon had defeated Israel and destroyed the city of Jerusalem and the temple, this implied that the god of Babylon was greater than Israel’s God. This was Daniel’s main concern.

3. According to Jeremiah’s prophecy, a contemporary of Daniel, the desolation of the temple and the city would last only 70 years. This period was about to expire at the time Daniel was given the vision of chapter 8.

So when Daniel was told by Gabriel that the cleansing of the sanctuary would be accomplished in the distant future, he immediately concluded that God had changed His mind and postponed the restoration of the earthly temple and the city of Jerusalem. Note the plea of his prayer [read Dan. 9:17-19]. This created a problem for God. Why? Because, as we have already seen, the vision of Dan. 8:14 referred to the establishing of God’s kingdom on earth in the last days and not the restoration of the earthly sanctuary.

But since God did not want to disappoint His beloved prophet Daniel, He did what Christ did to the disciples when they linked the destruction of Jerusalem, which took place in 70 A.D., with His second coming, which is still future [read Matt. 23:37-24:3].

Going back to Daniel 9, please notice how God responded to the plea of Daniel’s prayer [read Dan. 9:20-23]. According to this statement, the angel Gabriel now comes to explain the unexplained part of the Dan. 8 vision, namely verse 14.

But when we read Gabriel’s explanation of Dan. 8:14 in Dan. 9:24-27, we discover that all Daniel is told is about the final probation period determined for his people Israel, i.e., 490 years [read verses 24-27]. Does this mean the real explanation of Dan. 8:14 was not really given? If so, then Gabriel lied, because he clearly stated in verse 22, “I have come to give you insight and understanding,” i.e., regarding Dan. 8:14.

However, God does not lie. Therefore, the only way we can resolve the problem is to give verses 24-27 of chapter 9 a dual application, just as we do with Matthew 24, the 490 years being the final probation period for the Jewish nation while the period following 2,300 days will be the final or last days for the Gentile world. According to Dan. 9:24-27, five events take place:

1. The 490 years begins with a command to restore the temple and the city of Jerusalem [read verse 25a].

2. For this command to be carried out, the Jews would have to come out of Babylon and return to Israel. This is implied.

3. Next comes the actual restoration of the temple and city. However, note that this would be a difficult task because of troublous times [read verse 25b].

4. Finally, during the last seven years of the 490-year period, the covenant promised through the sanctuary model would be confirmed: The Messiah would come. Keep in mind the sanctuary and its services were a visual aid of the plan of redemption in Christ [Ex. 25:8; Jn. 1:14; Jn. 2:18-22 (for context, read Jn. 2:12-16)]. Unfortunately, Israel would reject Him and this would bring the probation period for the Jewish nation to an end [read verse 26, 27].

5. When the Jewish nation rejected Christ, after the miracle of the resurrection, they had committed the abomination of desolation (their rejection of Christ was deliberate and final). The evidence of this was the stoning of Stephen in 34 A.D. [read Acts 7:44-52].

Now, taking these five points which sums up Gabriel’s explanation of Dan. 8:14, we will apply the same five points to 1844 and the cleansing or reconsecration of the sanctuary truth, the true gospel the little horn cast to the ground and prospered:

1. The command to re-proclaim the gospel truth was given in 1844. [Read Rev. 10:11 in context.] The only book of the Old Testament that was sealed till the time of the end was Daniel (Dan. 8:26; 12:4). For further support that 2,300 is equal to years, the “evening morning” is singular: the 2,300th Day of Atonement.

2. For the above command to be carried out, God’s people will have to come out of spiritual Babylon [read Dan. 4:30].

3. The restoration of the everlasting gospel will be realized, but through troublous times. That is where we are today.

4. When the gospel is finally restored and proclaimed with a loud voice, Matt. 24:14 will be fulfilled. Thus the gospel covenant will be confirmed to the Gentile world. But Christ will be deliberately and finally rejected. This will be the abomination that will make this world desolate.

5. The end of the world will come and God’s kingdom will be established.

[Ron Lambert]

Pastor Jack Sequeira has offered some good, sound reasoning here, based on a responsible and consistent use of Scripture to ensure a truly biblical interpretation. I for one greatly welcome this approach to the interpretation of Bible prophecy. It is the one I use; how else can I face my Creator, Redeemer, and Judge, if I use any other means of interpreting His written revelations, than this one of intellectual honesty, textual integrity, and logical consistency? This is the only way we can ever hope to avoid making a "private" or "subjective" interpretation, which is forbidden by 2 Peter 1:20.

I also appreciated Pastor Sequeira's pointing out that Daniel 8:26 says that the portion of the vision that was "sealed" was the part that was not explained. This reinforces my contention that it is primarily Daniel's fourth vision, the one by the Tigris (Daniel 10-12) that was sealed until the time of the end, because it was not explained. Daniel "sealed up" the vision in the simplest way possible--by just closing up his writing of the fourth vision without attempting to add any additional comments to it beyond what he was told. And please note, that the verses including the time prophecies are not an explanation of the whole vision, but only add a few additional items of information, in the same manner as Daniel 8:13, 14 was added (and by the same means, a question-and-answer sequence involving heavenly beings)--while the explanation portion of the vision did not begin until verse 17.

[benherndon]

First of all, the fact that Wm Miller and his followers chose Oct 22, 1843 and later 1844, as the Day of Atonement and the day of the Lord's return, they obviously were ignorant of texts that clearly say nobody knows when the Lord will return. Those mistakes deprived them of validity. Why believe any other obscurity they taught?

Thirdly, if Dan 8:14, involving the sanctuary being cleansed and the Inv Judg set up, IS the most important founding text of Adventism, Jack Sequiera sure has a series of hoops to jump through in trying to 'prove' it. It looks and feels contrived. Any text teaching a seriously important doctrine certainly wouldn't be that 'hidden', would it?

The world's scholars of the Bible and Christianity have failed to 'buy into' our 2300 day prophecy. Why? It doesn't have obvious validity. We've been told to demand a "plain thus saith the Lord".

Assuming, for purposes of discussion, it is glaringly 'the truth'......what purpose, then, does it serve the believer who is saved by 'believing' just as John 3:16 says. Most people see nothing of an essential belief contributing to one's salvation in Dan 8:14. Obviously is isn't real clear to a very lot of those who examine the SDA interpretation that it holds up to careful evaluation. And...the Maccabbees, the Jews, have an explanation they've had for thousands of years...they celebrate the 'cleansing' of the temple in their Feast of Lights, yearly.

Jack Sequeira's explanation is too complex and involving too much widely separate & obscure support texts for a doctrine so important. I don't buy it.

It was all a mistake from the very beginning with Wm Miller.....His mistakes, later admitted by him, doesn't need to be compounded further.

Placing EGW's writings in a 'pastoral' status would solve the whole problem that keeps bugging the church year after year after year for 160 yrs now. Enough already! The church is bigger than an obscure Dan 8:14.

Ben

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "First of all, the fact that Wm Miller and his followers chose Oct 22, 1843 and later 1844, as the Day of Atonement and the day of the Lord's return, . . ."

Dr. Ben:

I need to correct a misstatement in your post. William Miller never did set October 22 as the day of the Lord's return, as you stated above,in either 1843 or in 1844.

William Miller set a time period of one year for the return of the Lord, never a specific day. That is your first error.

Your second error is that William Miller first set the beginning and ending of the period of one year in the month of March, and then later changed it to the month of October. But, in both cases the beginning was in 1843, and the ending was in 1844.

Note: Millers first date was ". . . between March 21st, 1843 and March 21st, 1844." At no time did Miller ever set a specific day during the one year period for the return of Christ. That one year period was changed to October 22, 1843 to October 22, 1844. That change was not made by William Miller, but it was a change that Miller accepted. Again, at no time did Miller ever set a specific day during that one year period for the return of the Lord.

The above does not change the fact that there was error on the prophetic understanding of William Miller, and his followers. But, we need to be accurate in our criticisms. You misstated the historical reality.

[benherndon]

Yes, you are correct on that, Gregory....I forgot that Miller didn't set Oct 22, 1844, the exact date and hour like his followers did. However, he did set a time and WAS convinced to join his followers again the second time (1844)--and, he subsequently admitted he had been wrong to have projected the time and he also criticised other followers who were making the same mistakes he did.

The transfer of God and Christ from thrones in the Holy Place to thrones in the MHP, and starting at that time to judge the salvation of, first, the dead, and then the living, is obviously not well supported in New Testament teachings.....and it serves no good purpose in the subject of Christian beliefs. Sure!... God is going to judge each of us....but we don't know when exactly..... other than when He comes again. Surely He isn't going to close my probation while I'm still alive, praying to Him and believing in Him, and trying to live a decent life towards Him and others He has created...as I was taught in the 1930s.

Remember something else about that dream/vision---when God and Christ allegedly left the Holy Place, they must have created a spiritual vacuum there, because the prayers of those Christians who didn't know God and Christ had moved their thrones, were prayed to the "wrong compartment" which They had left and Satan 'appeared' to be there in that abandoned compartment having an evil influence on those who didn't know about this important event. Their prayers were considered 'useless'. (Imagine such a statement?) Read about it in EW, pp54-57. I understand dreams as all of us do....but we don't incase them in spiritual authority. EGW was sincere, no doubt about it, and she was a Godly lady, but that doesn't make it right and confirms, once again, that 'the writings' should be 'pastoral' rather than 'prophetic'.

If we were to admit that was a 'dream' and not a spiritual fact, in all probability....that the Bible doesn't clearly support the story.... would that bring down the entire church...after all the good it has done and is doing? If the church's validity depends on the alleged transfer of God and Christ from thrones in the Holy Place to thrones in the MHP, then we ARE in big trouble. But the church is a great organization FOR THE LORD..and just because a belief or two of our human founders is sort of relegated to the back burner until further 'light' is no reason to have the church fold up and resign from the Christian world, is it?

Then, why not cease actively promoting some questionable, poorly Biblically supported idea, and focus all our attention on things that *are* clearly supported? Does Christianity rise and fall on every dream/vision and thought of EGW?....I don't think so!! While she was a good and Godly talented woman, I don't think everything she said or thought or dreamed about should be encrypted as a message from the Holy Spirit. After all, if you remember, she had a dream in which she talked with her deceased husband and followed 'his advice' given in that dream. None of us are perfect, not her, and not you or me. Christianity is based on the Bible and it alone and she said so!!

We are advised in 1Thess 5 to not reject prophecy if it has been tested and stands true to Scripture. Keep that which is 'good' and reject that which isn't 'good'....that's what is implied in that reference. See also 1 Cor 14 on prophesying.

Ben

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: ". . . the prayers of those Christians who didn't know God and Christ had moved their thrones, were prayed to the 'wrong compartment'"

Dr. Ben, as much as I like and respect you, you sure have an active immagination. I have got to give you an A+ for creativity!

I have never heard that one before.

[Ron Lambert]

Benherndon, you said about the early Millerite Adventists: "Those mistakes deprived them of validity. Why believe any other obscurity they taught?"

Well, the disciples of Christ were mistaken too, about important matters involving Christ's first coming, completely ignoring what Jesus told them about having to die and then rise again the third day. Does this render all the preaching of the apostles invalid?

No humans are inerrant. All faithful followers of God are embarked on a learning curve. Do you want to keep up with them, or be left behind?

As for the failure of theologians and Bible scholars of other denominations to see light in our teaching of the beginning of the judgment at the end of the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14, how many of the teachers, learned scholars, and leaders of Israel saw light in Christ's preaching? Are churchmen today any better than the Scribes and Pharisees of Christ's day? Do they not prefer their own traditions over the plain teaching of the Word of God that the seventh day is the Sabbath? Why should we give weight to their attempts to justify their own living in denial of Daniel 8:14 And Revelation 14:7?

[benherndon]

Gregory, "What do these quotes mean to you?":

"...Then I turned to look at the company who were still bowed before the throne. They did not know that Jesus had left it. Satan appeared to be by the throne trying to carry on the work of God. I saw them look up to the throne and pray, My Father give us thy spirit. Then Satan would breathe on them an unholy influence. In it was light and much power, but no sweet love, joy and peace. Satan's object was to keep them deceived and to draw back and deceive God's children. I saw one after another leave the company who were praying to Jesus in the Holiest, go and join those before the throne and they at once received the unholy influence of Satan." DS, March 14, 1846, par 1, similar writing in EW, pp 54-56

...and this one, too.....

"I saw that the nominal churches, as the Jews crucified Jesus, had crucified these messages [10/22/'83 and 10/22/'84], and therefore they have no knowledge of the move made in heaven [i.e.,God and Christ leaving their thrones in the Holy Place], or of the way into the Most Holy, and they cannot be benefited by the intercession of Jesus there. Like the Jews, who offered their useless sacrifices, they offer up their useless prayers to the apartment which Jesus has left, and Satan, pleased with the deception of the professed followers of Christ, fastens them in his snare, and assumes a religious character, and leads the minds of these professed christians to himself, and works with his power, and his signs and lying wonders."

GC, pp 171-172. (bracketed parts mine)

Greg, I'm sorry if quoting these brings hardship to the mind of any body. I believe EGW was sincere, honest at heart and truly a Godly Christian writer and person. However as I said, such things as this force me and many others to regard her as 'pastoral' rather than nearCanonical 'prophetic'.

Do you still think I am imagining things...and...or...have a creative 'mind' so that I say things that are untrue to the facts of the situation? I try to not do that and if I do, and realize it, I try to apologize and correct my error. I know the smallest mistake I make will cause the 'traditionalists' to pounce on the mistake and sometimes avoid the point of my posts.

That's a 'forum' for you. LOL

Ben

[benherndon]

Ron Lambert said:

Benherndon, you said about the early Millerite Adventists: "Those mistakes deprived them of validity. Why believe any other obscurity they taught?"

[:"blue"] Ron, pardon me, I should have said mistakes deprived them of SOME of their validity. Their explanation of Dan 8:14 IS now an obscurity to most Biblically knowledgeable people. Few outside our church if any accept our interpretation.[/]

Well, the disciples of Christ were mistaken too, about important matters involving Christ's first coming, completely ignoring what Jesus told them about having to die and then rise again the third day. Does this render all the preaching of the apostles invalid?

[:"blue"]When the disciples mistook His purpose and intention in coming it was BEFORE His death and resurrection. AFTER His death and resurrection, they understood quite quickly especially after the Pentecost. Paul didn't understand it either even until he was stricken in Damascus. Then, he began to wake up...but didn't it take him a few years alone in the desert to think it all out? Look what happened when he really spent hard times thinking about what I assume, pardon me, the HS was teaching him![/]

No humans are inerrant. All faithful followers of God are embarked on a learning curve. Do you want to keep up with them, or be left behind?

As for the failure of theologians and Bible scholars of other denominations to see light in our teaching of the beginning of the judgment at the end of the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14, how many of the teachers, learned scholars, and leaders of Israel saw light in Christ's preaching? Are churchmen today any better than the Scribes and Pharisees of Christ's day? Do they not prefer their own traditions over the plain teaching of the Word of God that the seventh day is the Sabbath? Why should we give weight to their attempts to justify their own living in denial of Daniel 8:14 And Revelation 14:7?

[:"blue"] Ron, the Bible scholars of today know the Bible very well including the NT. Nobody but SDA scholars and preachers like Sequeira and the ones at the Seminary chosen because they will support our founder's theories, will give any credence to our unique interpretation of Dan 8;14. Sr. White said that as far as doctrines are concerned we must demand a "plain thus saith the Lord". To me that means that obscure interpretations are not to be taken too seriously.

As far as 'traditions' are concerned, Ron, surely you realize we have our traditions about as certainly as other denominations do. All denominations start out by some people following a spiritual 'guru'. That guru starts with 'traditions' as understood my him or her. Today, most credible Biblical scholars go by the Bible alone. They don't always agree....but that's nothing....I watch SDAs talking to each other right here on this forum and though they both disagree with me, they do not agree between themselves. Its kind of funny, to watch that happen.

Didn't you watch Archierierus and Dwight Hornbacher argue a long time over some Greek translating? Both of them 'know' Greek, you know. But...Do they? [/]

Ben

[David Koot]

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benherndon said:

Sr. White said that as far as doctrines are concerned we must demand a "plain thus saith the Lord". To me that means that obscure interpretations are not to be taken too seriously.

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Very well, Ben, let's take a careful look at the verse and see what the Bible indeed says. Perhaps a new thread would be appropriate.

Quote:

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[benherndon]

To Gregory:

The second quote I gave you and stated as being from G.C. was, rather from 1 S.G. pp 171-172 and the chapter it was under in that edition of SG was "Great Controversy". It is not in G.C. under those page numbers. It is in Vol 1 of Spiritual Gifts.

Ben

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

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Robert said:

3. The Investigative Judgment Itself. Our traditional explanation of the investigative judgment of the saints contradicts the gospel truth of justification by faith alone. Therefore this doctrine is also unbiblical.

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Nothing gives me greater hope than the traditional explanation of the investigative judgement, especially as I see my name come before the courts of heaven. It is written in the Lamb's book of Life and there is profiled to be indicating no flaws revealed, as the blood of Jesus has washed away all my sins and I have been accounted worthy. This by grace afforded from the Lamb, and faith, a gift of the Holy Spirit.

[:"red"] "In the daytime (for there will be no night there) its gates will never be closed;

and they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it;

and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life." [/] Revelation 21:25-29 NASB

[:"red"] "...for the reckoning of God is living, and working, and sharp above every two-edged sword, and piercing unto the dividing asunder both of soul and spirit, of joints also and marrow, and a discerner of thoughts and intents of the heart; " [/] Hebrews 4:12 YLT

[:"red"] "...and he who is boasting -- in the Lord let him boast... " [/] 2 Corinthians 10:17 YLT

It is of interesting note that in the Jewish system of justice, it was recognized that the Judge was on the side of the defendant. The only one opposed to the sinful mortal was the prosecutor, the devil himself as the accuser of the brethren, and those who wished to side as one with the accuser.

The investigative judgement holds no fear for those who depend on the continuous cleansing of the blood of Jesus as their only hope of eternal salvation.

[:"red"] "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." [/] John 3:17 KJV

Lord Jesus!!!!

[:"red"] "If we [freely] admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just (true to His own nature and promises) and will forgive our sins [dismiss our lawlessness] and [continuously] cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action]. " [/] 1 John 1:9 AMP

[:"red"] "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." [/] Isaiah 64:6 KJV

[LifeHiscost]

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benherndon said:

Yes, you are correct on that, Gregory.

Ben

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Of how much importance is it, Ben, to assure everyone of another human's failings.

[:"red"] "Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory which God bestows and receives." [/] Romans 3:23 AMP

We as Christians are asked to preach the Word, the everlasting gospel.

[:"red"] "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people..." [/] Revelation 14:6 KJV

Why is it found necessary to disprove the one who identified herself as a lessor light, to lead to the greater Light? When we have found the fifty billion candlepower beam, of how much use is the 50,000 candlepower lantern if it does not lead one to the Greater?

[:"red"] "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." [/] John 1:9 KJV

For every candle that burned for my salvation, when I walked with the light, I've been blest. If I used that light to cause others to stumble, it will be on my shoulders, not because it was wrong but because failure to walk toward the greater with the aid of the lessor refuses the help sent for those who need it.

[:"red"]"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." [/] John 17:3 KJV

[:"red"] "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This is the first and great commandment.

And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." [/] Matthew 22:37-40 KJV

Blessings!!

[benherndon]

Post deleted by benherndon

[David Koot]

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benherndon said:

>>>Apparently, LHC, you don't understand the need to clean up some teachings that do not appear to have plain Biblical support and that in a way hinder the church's desire to encourage educated and Biblically knowledgeable people to regard us other than a 'cult'!

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The problem with that statement is that the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment, which began in 1844, is Bible doctrine. The few who regard SDA's as a 'cult' (and they are few) often are the ones who object to the personal accountability which the doctrine of the IJ calls for.

[bevin]

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that the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment, which began in 1844, is Bible doctrine

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Okay - since you are doing so well in the Origins forum on the evidence for/against evolution, lets do this one too.

Here are the steps you need to perform to show that the IJ started in 1844

Assuming you are going to use Dan 8:14, you need to show

• When the period starts
• How long it is
• What happens at the end

For the sake of argument, I will concede the standard SDA start date of 457BC without argument.

Let's discuss the other two points.

Why do you think '2300 evening morning' is 2300 years?

Why do you think the judgement of the saints starts at the end of the period?

/Bevin

[benherndon]

Before proceeding with the less important, please deal with the two "SOP" quotes I gave in response to Gregory's post. Don't pass over the sentences. Interpret each sentence, if you can.

Then go on with your 'way' of interpreting Dan 8:14 supporting all the details of the unique things attributed to that text..."For 2300 evenings and mornings, then the holy place will be properly restored." Don't ask questions of me....just tell me How? you get to those conclusions.

I used to believe the classic SDA way......... before I looked into it. What was OK with Mom and Dad and my profs was OK with me.....until I looked into it. Straighten me out.

Let's see if we can discuss this and be 'cool' in doing so. I've been PM'd that others are watching what goes on and what is said.

Ben

[Robert]

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LifeHiscost said:

Nothing gives me greater hope than the traditional explanation of the investigative judgement, especially as I see my name come before the courts of heaven.

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Okay...but then you misinterpret the following:

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"If we admit that we have sinned and confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness [everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action]. " 1 John 1:9 AMP

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You are interpreting to cleanse from sin "everything not in conformity to His will in purpose, thought, and action"! Are you that way? If you aren't then "the traditional explanation of the investigative judgement" is very bad news.

Rob

[Robert]

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LifeHiscost said:

"Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory which God bestows and receives." [/] Romans 3:23 AMP

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This AMP Bible isn't a Bible at all! It's highly paraphrased and biased!

Here's the context taken from a good, solid translation:

Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, that every mouth may be closed, and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. 21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.... [NASB]

The context is "the righteousness of God"....This is what we fall short of....Moses agrees:

Ex 33:18 Moses said, “I pray thee, show me thy glory.” 19 And he said, “I will make all my goodness [i.e., righteousness] pass before you....

[Robert]

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benherndon said:

Jack Sequiera sure has a series of hoops to jump through in trying to 'prove' it.

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Did you read Jack's material? His conclusion is as follows:

1. The command to re-proclaim the gospel truth was given in 1844. [Read Rev. 10:11 in context.] The only book of the Old Testament that was sealed till the time of the end was Daniel (Dan. 8:26; 12:4). For further support that 2,300 is equal to years, the “evening morning” is singular: the 2,300th Day of Atonement.

2. For the above command to be carried out, God’s people will have to come out of spiritual Babylon [read Dan. 4:30].

3. The restoration of the everlasting gospel will be realized, but through troublous times. That is where we are today.

4. When the gospel is finally restored and proclaimed with a loud voice, Matt. 24:14 will be fulfilled. Thus the gospel covenant will be confirmed to the Gentile world. But Christ will be deliberately and finally rejected. This will be the abomination that will make this world desolate.

5. The end of the world will come and God’s kingdom will be established.

[David Koot]

Quote:

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benherndon said:

Before proceeding with the less important, please deal with the two "SOP" quotes I gave in response to Gregory's post. Don't pass over the sentences. Interpret each sentence, if you can.

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I have read those statements at various times over the years. Without the slightest doubt, Ellen G. White was given visions by God, in which she saw those very things. Without the slightest doubt, they are absolutely true. I don't see any need to 'interpret' the sentences, as they are straightforward.

[benherndon]

OK, Robert....I didn't want to get involved in the first place...I wanted to know what you thought about Dan 8:14. Thanks for telling me.

Ben

[David Koot]

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bevin said:

Why do you think '2300 evening morning' is 2300 years?

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Because it is prophetic time--day for a year principle

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Why do you think the judgement of the saints starts at the end of the period?

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Because of the sanctuary service

[Bravus]

But evening/mornings in Genesis still mean 24 hours, right? Just checking...

(I know, I have no point here, I'm just being mischievous - /me runs away)