Replacement Theology

[JoeMo]

This is a question for people smarter than me.  I have read (on the internet, of course!) that SDAs are huge proponents of Replacement Theology (aka supercessionism), which states that Christians have replaced Jews as God's Chosen people; and all the promises God made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob have been taken from the Jews and given to Christianity - all because the Jews killed Jesus.

Is this true?  If it is, how can they say that after reading Romans 11 and Hebrews?  How can they say that knowing that a Jew will one day rule the world?

[LifeHiscost]

And what about this promise.

Luke 19:10

for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”

 

God is Love!~Jesus! 

[JoeMo]

Revelation seems to be clear that the 144,000 will be comprised of the nation of Israel - 12,000 from each tribe (Rev. &:1-8).  Does this include those Gentile Christians among spiritual Israel, or are they included in the great multitude? (Rev.7:9)

[Lone Ranger]

Whenever dealing with Revelation I always like to first of all establish whether the language is literal or symbolic, who says so, and based on what.

My second question is to be sure that I am not calling the language "literal" or "symbolic" simply to fit my pet theory (of which I have many.)

[phkrause]

22 hours ago, JoeMo said:

This is a question for people smarter than me.  I have read (on the internet, of course!) that SDAs are huge proponents of Replacement Theology (aka supercessionism), which states that Christians have replaced Jews as God's Chosen people; and all the promises God made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob have been taken from the Jews and given to Christianity - all because the Jews killed Jesus.

Is this true?  If it is, how can they say that after reading Romans 11 and Hebrews?  How can they say that knowing that a Jew will one day rule the world?

I've never heard of this?? Also having spent my youth years in a Jewish/Adventist church also never having heard this there!! Pretty sure that the "Chosen People of God" was never taken anyway from the Jews and given to anyone else!! The only thing that I know is that Jesus himself started christian church, I guess technically his apostles and followers were called Christians and the name stuck through the years!!

[JoeMo]

20 hours ago, phkrause said:

I've never heard of this?? Also having spent my youth years in a Jewish/Adventist church also never having heard this there!! Pretty sure that the "Chosen People of God" was never taken anyway from the Jews and given to anyone else!! The only thing that I know is that Jesus himself started christian church, I guess technically his apostles and followers were called Christians and the name stuck through the years!!

I had never heard it stated quite that way before, but I do remember hearing sermons in my SDA Church of 35 years ago about the promises to Israel now being for Christians.  Almost all the grass roots SDA's I know support Judaism.  I have been having informal impromptu Bible studies with my Orthodox Jewish next-door neighbor for 6 months now.  We have both benefited from it.

[JoeMo]

Don't know how valid it is, but this is one of the websites claiming SDA's embrace replacement theology:

https://amos37.com/replacement-denominations/

Here is an older thread from the Seventh Day Adventist forum where many people are discussing this - some strong proponents of replacement theology:

http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/seventh-day-adventist/TLJTGQHVLUKEQF9MG

Here is a paper by the BRI, which I infer to support replacement theology:

https://adventistbiblicalresearch.org/sites/default/files/pdf/Role of Israel_0.pdf

[Lone Ranger]

From my time in SDA  it seems that most Adventists believe or buy into Replacement Theology in one form or another and/or to a greater or lesser degree.

However, most would deny adherence to RT, at the same time affirming the points thereof. IOW, they believe it, but don't know they believe it.

[APL]

The term Replacement Theology is coined by those that do not want to see the truth of who a real Jew is. 

Romans 2:24-29

(24) As it is written: "God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."

(25) Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised.

(26) If those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised?

(27) The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

(28) A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical.

(29) No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God.

 

So it is not "replacement theology", but a denial of the truth. The true Christian is the true Jew. 

[Lone Ranger]

I would be reluctant to assign motive based on a differing viewpoint.

[JoeMo]

EGW had a vision of people on the path to heaven.  in summary, the ones that made it were 144,000 Adventists.  This is a prime example of replacement theology in Adventism.  If you believe all of EGW's visions were accurate, then you are a proponent of replacement theology.

3 hours ago, APL said:

Romans 2:24-29

(24) As it is written: "God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."

(25) Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised.

(26) If those who are not circumcised keep the law’s requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised?

(27) The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

(28) A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical.

(29) No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God.

So it is not "replacement theology", but a denial of the truth. The true Christian is the true Jew.

As long as we're quoting from Romans, let's consider the following:

"I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”[a]? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” (Rom. 11:1-4)

Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! "(Rom. 11:11-12)

"If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either." (Rom. 11:17-21)

3 hours ago, APL said:

The true Christian is the true Jew.

Incorrect.  A true Jew is a descendant of Judah.  A true Christian is a spiritual Jew.

[JoeMo]

44 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

EGW had a vision of people on the path to heaven.  in summary, the ones that made it were 144,000 Adventists.

I tried to locate the statement in EGW's writings.  I couldn't see where she said they were all Adventists.  The gist of her writings and the apparent position of the church is they are the saved of all ages - those who spent their lives living for and witnessing about Jesus.  It is fairly easy to infer that this means Christians.  Since - according to many SDA's, Sabbath will be the end-time issue - that pretty much limits it to SDA's and other Sabbath-keeping Christians, although I could find nothing explicit about the church saying that.

Some SDA's are Replacement theology proponents.  Just look at APL's post above.

[8thdaypriest]

There is ONLY ONE TREE - in Romans Cpt 11.  It's an OLIVE TREE.  God called Israel's name "Green Olive Tree" in Jeremiah.

The TREE is Israel.

The "root" of that tree is holy - so we know the root is Christ.

Branches were "broken off" from that tree - for unbelief.  Some during the wilderness wandering.  Some at the time Assyria destroyed the 10 tribes, 

- and some when they would not believe in Jesus Christ (who gave them every miracle as evidence of who He was/is). 

Israel remained.  Only branches were broken off. 

New branches were grafted in (Gentiles coming to faith).   Those Gentile believers were every bit part of "the tree" - and still are.

The broken off branches could be grafted in again - IF they came to believe.  Most did not.  Some did (like Saul of Tarsus). 

There is ONLY ONE ISRAEL - just like there's ONLY ONE TREE.  

Whatever Jews call themselves,  if they do not believe in Jesus Christ as their Messiah, then they are NOT living branches of THE TREE - NOT God's Israel. 

The promises are for Israel - for the living Olive Tree - NOT for broken off branches. 

"IF you are Christ's, then you ARE Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promises."  Galatians 3:29

IF you are NOT Christ's, then you ARE NOT Abraham's seed, and NOT HEIRS according to the promises.

Most here do not share my belief that those who died in various degrees of ignorance, will be raised at the 8th millennium as "the rest of the dead" to learn of Christ and then CHOOSE whether to serve Him as king.  I believe all those Jews who, because of their culture and education, did not learn the truth of Christ, will be raised at the 8th Day, to learn of Him.  At that time, they will have the opportunity to be "grafted in again" - into the ONE TREE that is ISRAEL. 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

If the ONE TREE - ISRAEL - has believing Gentile branches along with believing Jewish branches, then the 144,000 (all from Israel) could be of non-Hebrew as well as Hebrew origin. 

The 144,000 will be "able to stand" at "that day".   What DAY is that?  It's the Second Coming.  Look at the preceding verses.

Revelation 6:14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. 15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

The full "wrath" is poured out - as the 7 last plagues (16:1).   They are poured out on the DAY that Christ returns, as soon as He has removed His people. 

Whether the 144,000 are those who live through to the end, or those resurrected to everlasting life at His return - both - will "stand" at that day, while the wicked are hiding in caves and crying for the rocks to cover them. 

The New Jerusalem has 12 gates and 12 foundations.  The 12 gates are named for the tribes of Israel, and the 12 foundations are named for the 12 disciples.  Kinda combines Old Testament era with New Testament era saints. 12 x 12 = 144,000.   No.  I don't believe the #144,000 is a literal number.  It's symbolic.  Represents all those who have served Christ. 

The 144,000 are call "first fruits".  They will come first.  The "great multitude" will come later.  

The "great multitude" - I believe - will be "harvested" during the 8th millennium, from "the rest of the dead".   They "come out of the great tribulation" in the sense that they suffered with all the rest of mankind, during this terrible 6000 years of earth's history.   This earth's history - under Satan's domination - IS "the great tribulation".  

 

 

[APL]

2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Incorrect.  A true Jew is a descendant of Judah.  A true Christian is a spiritual Jew.

Thank you for giving an example of what I said.   Again:

Romans 2:28-29

(28) A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical.

(29) No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man’s praise is not from men, but from God.

[Kevin H]

One of Satan's favorite methods is to take a truth, divide it in half, and deceive some people with the one portion of the truth and to those who see the error in that portion of the truth to embrace the other portion of the truth.

We Seventh-day Adventists see that the view of the dispensationalists is wrong. That view is the idea that all the prophecies to the Jews in the land need to be fulfilled in exact detail and therefore the church is in the way. Thus theThy teach that the church needs to be raptured away then God will once again use the Jews in the land and fulfill every minor point of prophecies that were not fulfilled back then.

Sadly in seeing that error, Satan has encouraged us to embrace replacement theology. The idea that God is through with the Jew and is now using the church to fulfill the prophecies. (and for the Bible texts that you pointed out, replacement theology says that they apply to Jews who become converts to Christianity.)

The Bible sees prophecies as conditional to our response. And the Bible offers two possible ways how God is willing to use the Jews.

In one possibility you start with the land. We tend to read these in a vacuum and miss the historical setting. That piece of property was THE major intersection between the great trade routes between Europe, Africa and Asia. It was quite literally the center of the ancient world. While I Canaanites could have been blessed by the tolls of the caravans, they picked up a couple of very harmful ideas. One was in their worship they believed that they needed to help out the gods of life to defeat the gods of death. (That property was also where the weather patterns of Europe, Asia, Africa and the Arabian Desert also happened to meet.). They believed that this was done by uniting the life forces: They would on the important times in the agricultural cycle (which were the same as what we were to find later as the feasts of the land) they would wear clothing of mixed textures, eat breads of mixed grains, and everyone have sex with each other, man, women, children and animals.

This depravity caused other depravities, including the idea that if they raped someone that they were stealing some of their victim's life force, and if they were to rape them to death that they would get all their life force. That meant that some of the food that would have grown in their victim's garden will now grow in their garden. Some of the animals that would have been born in their victims animals will now be born to their animals, some of the children that would have been born to their victim's wife will now be born to their wife.

This made the land a very dangerous place, but yet it was again the center of the ancient world. In giving this land to the Hebrews, world commerce would improve because this great intersection would no longer be dangerous. The Hebrews could get their revenue from the tolls and trust in God for the weather issues. Meanwhile the trade caravans would travel the world and talk about the people in that intersection and their God and religion of simply trusting that God instead of trying to appease the gods or help them out. This would have carried the gospel to the whole world and God's kingdom would have been set up.

Now if the Hebrews were not faithful God would bring them curses to get their attention and encourage repentance. But if they all failed then they would go into exile where they were to talk about God's faithfulness and their unfaithfulness, and if faithful the messiah would come to take them home.

We find the Assyrian and Babylonian exile, it did not end as predicted but they had a lackluster second exodus back for another 70 weeks of years of God wanting to use them in the land to share the gospel. But they were so afraid of paganism that they kept to themselves, and Jesus was not accepted by the people as a whole, so Jesus again predicted exile theology, going into all the world and sharing about their unfaithfulness but God's faithfulness and wait for the messiah to come and take us home. God can use both the Jews and the grafted in gentiles in this situation.

As for the way of using the land.... that piece of property is no longer the center of the world. No longer where the great caravans need to go through and learn from the people and go and tell others about these people, their religion and their God. Shipping and air cargo has made the way God wanted to use the land back then obsolete, and the only way to use is us going into all the world spreading the gospel.

None of us have all the truth. The only time we had full gospel was in the Lord Jesus Christ himself. Once you got to his disciples you got different aspects of the truth that they saw clearer than others. God's people consists of Jews and Gentiles who are trusting in God and sharing what God means to us.

 

[JoeMo]

7 hours ago, Kevin H said:

None of us have all the truth. The only time we had full gospel was in the Lord Jesus Christ himself. Once you got to his disciples you got different aspects of the truth that they saw clearer than others. God's people consists of Jews and Gentiles who are trusting in God and sharing what God means to us.

?

[JoeMo]

16 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Is it really "replacement theology" when the Bible does say that those who "believe and have faith, will inherit the same things as "the [ literal ] children of Abraham? I am also wondering if you are trying to say "replacement theology" [ so-called] is "bad?"

Also; I think I found the EGW passage you were wondering about??
 

 

Yup, that's the passage!  Thanks.

As far as replacement theology goes, what you said is NOT replacement theology, because you are including ethnic believing Israelites with spiritual Jews (born-again Christians).  Replacement theology says that the Church has replaced the Jews as the Chosen people; and the unconditional promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are null and void; and now belong to the Christian church.  Such a thing would dishonor God and make Him a liar.  God doesn't want to be called a liar.

"So the Lord said to him, “Bring me a heifer, a goat and a ram, each three years old, along with a dove and a young pigeon.” Abram brought all these to him, cut them in two and arranged the halves opposite each other; the birds, however, he did not cut in half. Then birds of prey came down on the carcasses, but Abram drove them away. As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him. Then the Lord said to him, “Know for certain that for four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own and that they will be enslaved and mistreated there. But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. You, however, will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age. In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.” When the sun had set and darkness had fallen, a smoking firepot with a blazing torch appeared and passed between the pieces. On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi[e] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates—  the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites.” (Gen. 15:9-21)

In other words, God is saying through this covenant that He would rather kill Himself than break this Covenant.  He was the flaming pot passing between the pieces of slaughtered animals, indicating that this would be His fate if He broke that Covenant.

[8thdaypriest]

20 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Yup, that's the passage!  Thanks.

As far as replacement theology goes, what you said is NOT replacement theology, because you are including ethnic believing Israelites with spiritual Jews (born-again Christians).  Replacement theology says that the Church has replaced the Jews as the Chosen people; and the unconditional promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are null and void; and now belong to the Christian church.  Such a thing would dishonor God and make Him a liar.  God doesn't want to be called a liar.

"So the Lord said to him, “Bring me a heifer, a goat and a ram, each three years old, along with a dove and a young pigeon.” Abram brought all these to him, cut them in two and arranged the halves opposite each other; the birds, however, he did not cut in half. Then birds of prey came down on the carcasses, but Abram drove them away. As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him. Then the Lord said to him, “Know for certain that for four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own and that they will be enslaved and mistreated there. But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. You, however, will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age. In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.” When the sun had set and darkness had fallen, a smoking firepot with a blazing torch appeared and passed between the pieces. On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the Wadi[e] of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates—  the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites.” (Gen. 15:9-21)

In other words, God is saying through this covenant that He would rather kill Himself than break this Covenant.  He was the flaming pot passing between the pieces of slaughtered animals, indicating that this would be His fate if He broke that Covenant.

I do not regard myself as a "spiritual Jew".  I regard myself as an Israelite - "grafted in".   There are ethnic Israelites, and there are spiritual Israelites.  BOTH are "grafted in" by FAITH.

I don't know which tribe I have been "grafted in" to.  It is doubtful that every believer has been grafted-in to Judah.   More likely Ephraim.  Just one reason why I do not wish to belong to a group called "Messianic Jews".   

Romans 9:6 It is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel, (Rom 9:6 NET)

Just this verse - says that the promise to Abraham WILL NOT be fulfilled for everyone descended from Jacob.  It will be fulfilled only for those of faith. 

Paul goes even further to say that one is NOT a Jew because he was descended from Jacob.

Romans 2:28 For a person is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision something that is outward in the flesh, 29 but someone is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart by the Spirit and not by the written code. This person's praise is not from people but from God. (Rom 2:28 NET)

The promises to "the Seed" of Abraham, will be fulfilled only for those of faith - regardless of their DNA ancestry, or their religious identity and practice.

One may be "a Jew" (by DNA and practice) - and NOT BE attached to "the Tree".  

And one may be "a Christian" (by membership, practice, and avowed belief) - and NOT BE attached to "the Tree" - NOT one of Christ's own sheep. 

Even if every other DNA descendant of Abraham were lost, the promise to Abraham would not be "failed" - because Jesus triumphed - and HE is "the Seed" - and those who belong to Christ are "the seed of Abraham".  Christ could save ONLY Abraham and Gentiles who believed, and STILL FULFILL the promise to Abraham.  

Abraham may have understood the promise to apply to His literal descendants, but the promise actually applies only to ONE DESCENDANT - ONE SEED - Jesus the Christ (with those who belong to that Seed. 

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ. (NKJ)

Jesus Christ is the ONLY "SEED" where literal DNA descent was required to fulfill "the promise". 

[8thdaypriest]

CHOSEN PEOPLE

At this point of human history,  I believe the Lord's "chosen people" are "those of faith" in Jesus Christ - regardless of ethnic origin.   THEY are "the sheep of His pasture". 

Jesus said,  "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me." (John 10:27)

"He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and CHOSEN and faithful." (Rev 17:14)

 1 Peter 2:9 "But you are a CHOSEN people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light." (NIV)

Peter is writing to BELIEVERS.

The sooner we separate from the idea that God gives some sort of preference to those of Hebrew descent - the better.  I personally believe the idea to be preparing the world for a masterpiece of deception.   The deception being that Christ returned will rule the world from (and through) the nation of Hebrew descendants, during the upcoming 7th millennium.  

That being said, the Lord has not forgotten or "cast away" all those of Hebrew descent.  He will save a remnant - those of faith.

 Writing about ethnic Israelites:

Romans 11:1-2 "I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.  God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. "  

Romans 9:27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved." (NKJ)

The "children of Israel" includes BOTH ethnic Israelites AND "Christians". 

 

 

 

 

[phkrause]

On 10/12/2018 at 11:02 PM, JoeMo said:

EGW had a vision of people on the path to heaven.  in summary, the ones that made it were 144,000 Adventists.  This is a prime example of replacement theology in Adventism.  If you believe all of EGW's visions were accurate, then you are a proponent of replacement theology.

I must have missed where in the passages it says 144,000 and/or that they were Adventists? Or am I just reading to fast? Thanks in advance.

[JoeMo]

3 hours ago, phkrause said:

I must have missed where in the passages it says 144,000 and/or that they were Adventists? Or am I just reading to fast? Thanks in advance.

You are correct - it's not there.  I actually got that from a commentary on Adventists; and I remembered the vision.  The vision does not explicitly mention Adventists being the exclusive faithful on the path; nor does it specifically mention 144,000.  My bad. Sorry for the misinterpretation.

9 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I do not regard myself as a "spiritual Jew".  I regard myself as an Israelite - "grafted in".   There are ethnic Israelites, and there are spiritual Israelites.

Much more accurate.  I guess I've heard the term "spiritual Jew" from one too many TV preachers.

[LifeHiscost]

Whatever!

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[phkrause]

4 hours ago, LifeHiscost said:

Whatever!

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

That link doesn't seem to work

[phkrause]

19 hours ago, JoeMo said:

You are correct - it's not there.  I actually got that from a commentary on Adventists; and I remembered the vision.  The vision does not explicitly mention Adventists being the exclusive faithful on the path; nor does it specifically mention 144,000.  My bad. Sorry for the misinterpretation.

Thank you!