Everlasting Torment in Hell

[JoeMo]

In the interest of trying to move us forward from church and USA politics, I thought I might ask a question I've noodled on a little bit.

In my time as an SDA, I think I have been taught that all evil beings - human and spiritual - will be eternally destroyed in the lake of fire.  I'd always assumed that this included satan.  Then I read Rev. 20:10:

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

This explicitly states that satan, the beast, and the false prophet will be tortured forever in the lake of fire.  Another strange thought is that - no matter how long satan is tortured - the beast and the false prophet will have been tortured a thousand years longer than satan.

[Kevin H]

With in Adventism there are two understandings of what hell fire is. One group sees it as the physical fire we are use to when say lighting a match or a volcano. The traditional Catholic/Baptist hell, except that it only burns people up then burn out.

The second understanding is that hell fire is the fire we see in the Bible to describe the glory of God, God's love, power, beauty. That sin affects how we relate to him. How Moses could see his back but not his front because it would have consumed him. But at the end we all get the privilege that had to be postponed for Moses, to see him face to face. For some this will be heaven and eternal life, for others it will be horrible and end up destroying them.

I will write more later on the eternalness of the suffering. However the fire of God's glory,  love and beauty never does end. It is an eternal life.

[Gustave]

Whatever IT is - IT is perpetual. Eternal Life is perpetual life in God's ( & the Saints ) company while Hell is the perpetual existence outside God's company. 

[Lone Ranger]

While I do agree that "Eternal Life" is perpetual existence in God's presence,  I cannot agree that "Hell" is a similar perpetual existence outside of God's presence. Certainly not a perpetual existence of torment.

IMO, those who do not go to Heaven are destroyed in the fire of hell when the Earth is cleansed*. They are destroyed in as much time as it takes a fire to kill someone, they lose conscience existence,  and are no longer sentient beings. They do feel the fire, but only until they lose consciousness and die.

* I recognize that this may be an SDA viewpoint.

[Kevin H]

Some of the sources that has helped me in developing my understanding of hell, and helped me to notice this in the Bible and Mrs. White, are of course the religion classes at Atlantic Union College and also applying the writings of the poet - philosopher Eli Siegel to the situation.

The most important thing about hell fire is the beauty of Jesus. Our deepest desire is to be like and with him. To love the world as he has loved it. Yes, at the fall we got the sinful nature, or a disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world, to esteem ourselves more highly than others, to serve self, to seek the highest place. But unlike what Calvinism teaches, that is not all there is to us. Yes the other part was given to us from God in Genesis 3:15; God put something in us that finds evil not only attractive, but also ugly, there is also enmity between us and the serpent. A longing to be with the one who will crush the serpent's head. Jesus is the fairest of 10,000, the Lilly of the valley, the one more desirable than gold and sweeter than honey. He's the desire of all nations, the desire of ages, the one beloved by women. When Jesus was born the angels did not say that it was great joy for only the honest at heart, it was not great joy for the seekers, but great joy for ALL people. Each and everyone. Even Herod who tried to kill him, was still trying to use all of his evil to try to do what he thought he needed to do to find the world likeable.

The traditional understanding of the Judgement: We stand before God with our knees knocking. Our record is reviewed and God either tells us that we are allowed into heaven where we run with joy and relief wiping the sweat off our brow and hoping to get into heaven before God changes his mind. Otherwise we are judged and God says we have to go to hell were we are dragged off screaming and begging for mercy and suffer the physical pain of the fire forever.

Now we (and Mrs. White has helped us to see this) that hell fire is the glory and beauty and love of God. Moses was unable to see God's face because it would have consumed him. He was able to only see the back of God. And from just seeing the back of God he shone so bright that he had to wear a veil. When Jesus cleaned out the temple we find that his divinity flashed through humanity and people ran in 2 directions. The money changers were running away from it, and children and the poor were running TO it. How often to you see children running with joy to an angry man with a whip? Yet there was something about Jesus' anger that made the little children and the poor want to run and be with him. That flash of divinity that made the money changers run away and children and poor and ill run towars him was a peek at hell fire.

Mrs. White pictures that when Jesus comes and we see him in all his glory It will be so awesome that we all ask "Who shall be able to stand?" There is a moment of awful silence, the angels stop their singing. Then Jesus says [sings?[ "My grace is sufficient for you" Notice Jesus does not say "My grace is sufficient for some of you" He does not say "My grace is sufficient for you and you but not you over there, and it's sufficient for you, no not you I'm talking to the person standing behind you, sorry for the confusion and false hope you held until you realized that I was talking to the person behind you" Jesus tells all of us that his grace is sufficient for me! However Mrs. White points out that despite what Jesus just told me, that the people who hear him give 2 responses. The one group says "Of course his grace is sufficient for me! This is my God and he will save us!" But other people who just heard Jesus tell them that his grace is sufficient for them feel that he's lying, and with the influence of existentialism on our culture they have become slaves to their feelings. They feel that his grace is not sufficient for them and as they see their lives in contrast to his purity they believe that God is going to get them for their sins, they run in terror to the hills and caves and say "Fall on us and hide us from the one who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the lamb."

"Wrath of the lamb" Can you picture yourselves hearing a news bulletin "Lamb escapes from the children’s zoo lock your doors and stay inside? The lost have no more need to be afraid of Jesus than they are of a little lamb. However they are terrified like never before and the brightness of his coming consumes them. We have the truth here at the second coming, but then we fall apart and into tradition and superstition at the third coming instead of carrying out what we saw a taste of at the second coming to be in it's full force at the third coming.

So at the end of time. Isaiah 33 asks who can live in the eternal fire. The answer is that the righteous live forever in that fire. When prophets first saw God in vision they felt like they were being burned alive. But learned that they could not only survive in that fire but thrive in that fire and hated not to be burning in that fire. Deuteronomy 4:24 reads For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

We, all of us have 2 attitudes fighting with in us. One is our sinful nature or a disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world. To esteem ourselves more highly than others, to serve self, to seek the highest place and often this results in evil surmisings and bitterness of spirit. Fighting disposition this is a gift that God gave us in Genesis 3:15 which is not only a promise of the messiah, but that there is something in us attracted to God and beauty and repulsed by the ugliness of sin. That our deepest desire is to love the world as Jesus has loved it. Then for us his mission is accomplished. We are fitted for heaven for we have heaven in our hearts.

Everything we do builds on one of these two attitudes and weakens the other. Yet even at our worst we are trying to manipulate the world into what we think we need to be able to like it better. And even at our best there is a taint of selfishness and thus truly our best is like filthy rags. Thus everything we do has both elements of respect and contempt in it.

At the end of time we do what Moses was not at that time ready to do, see God's front (granted there will still be the unapproachable light and deep darkness reminding us that there is more to God then what we are seeing so that we don't commit the sin of idolatry and think we are seeing God in total). But we will see him in love and glory. Jesus is our deepest desire. The one altogether lovely, the one sweeter than honey and more desirable than gold. The one beloved of women (a forgotten Biblical name of Jesus). We are all overwhelmed by his beauty and glory. The righteous find it heaven to be in this situation and we respond to the overwhelming aspect of seeing our filthy rags in contrast to Jesus' holiness by casting our crowns at his feet singing "Holy, Holy Holy, worthy if the lamb!" and at the second coming our sinful nature, or the disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world will been burned out of us.

To the lost they are in a dilemma. Jesus is their deepest desire. They are overwhelmingly attracted to his beauty. They long to run into his loving arms and give themselves fully over to him. They are welcomed by Jesus who tells them that his grace is sufficient for them. But as they contrast their selfishness to his righteousness they do not sing the song of the redeemed. They are unforgiving people and thus they cannot comprehend forgiveness. They think that sooner or later God is going to get them for their sins. Jesus in John 3:18-21 said that there is only ONE reason why people are lost. And that it because they won't come to the light for fear their deeds will be exposed. For fear that God is going to get them for their sins. (while those who do come to the light find not a condemning God but a welcoming God who changes them).

The lost see loved ones around the throne who they long to be reunited with. But they also remember how they would use things like criticizing, complaining, blaming, nagging, threatening, punishing and rewarding to control to make these people do what they wanted them to do. They see how horrible and selfish their interactions with even their loved ones has been. And they see others who they did not love and who they wanted to hurt. And they are horrified especially as they contrast their behavior with the purity and beauty and self-sacrificing love of Jesus. And they know that the one who sits on the throne knows the deepest recesses of their mind and heart and they want to pull away from the source of life. Hitler does not see the final solution from the results of thousands of years of sin and excuses, but sees how these acts were seen through the pure eyes of God. So everyone will see themselves. The redeemed cast their crowns and sing out of gratitude, while the lost want to pull back and hide from the only source of life. Yet Jesus is still their deepest desire. They are in a dilemma. They want to run to Jesus and accept his grace, but they refuse to yield to this desire. It's God's nature to love and forgive and to draw all unto him, but God's love is a power that brings out the best in us. For those who do not want the best in them to be brought out, who are horrified at the ugliness of their sin and don't trust in God's grace but are slaves to their feeling where they feel that God is going to get them so also want to pull back from the one they so long to run to. It is a very uncomfortable position. It is even worst than the traditional Catholic/Baptist hell.

Heaven and hell are not two different places. God does not say to some of us we can go into heaven and send the rest to hell. We are wrong when we say that the fire burning forever does not mean forever. "The Glory of him that is love will consume the wicked" When does the glory and beauty and love of God burn out? Never. It's just that some of us will find it to be heaven to burn forever in the fire of God's love and beauty and glory, while others will find it to be hell and consuming and death. God treats each and every one of us the exact same way. Lucifer is treated the same way as Gabriel. Judah is treated the same as Abraham. The only difference between heaven and hell is that one is embracing all of reality with joy and enjoying reality and enjoying their friends and loved ones and have allowed the selfishness to have been burned out of them and to cast our crowns at Jesus feet and sing "Worthy is the lamb" and others are following a sick figment of their imagination that God's grace is not sufficient for them, are slaves to their feelings that God is going to get them for their sins. They become prisoners of their minds where they have created their own morbid heaven of complaining and whining about how unfair everything is only to see that God is indeed fair, and to come up with excuses but see that they have no excuse yet they refuse to leave this state of mind. Hell is locked not with a pad lock but a sliding lock and it's locked from the inside. As they see all their excuses melt but refuse to yield to their desire to run to him they make a compromise. They go on their knees and admit that God is indeed right, but they refuse to go further. This dilemma between wanting to run into his loving arms and have him wipe their tears from their eyes and wanting to be with him like nothing else they have ever been attracted to ever before, yet their refusing to yield to this desire and instead stay in their fear of what God would do to them and their morbid heaven of complaining and whining becomes so intense that it quite literally rips them apart and disintegrates them. God is the great purifier, he does not need some other flame for a clean up job. He is the great consuming and cleansing fire.

On the one hand God is completely active in the destruction of the wicked. He is not passively twiddling his thumbs. The event that is so horrible for the lost is seeing God in full beauty and love and glory. If he did not show them this they would not have to suffer hell. On the other hand the lost are completely active in their own destruction since they make a different choice in how to respond than the saved.

 

[Lone Ranger]

36 minutes ago, Kevin H said:

Now we (and Mrs. White has helped us to see this) that hell fire is the glory and beauty and love of God.

Sorry, but after reading the entire sermon I have to reject this line of reasoning. Hell IS NOT "the glory and beauty and love of God." That equates to "If you're looking for God, you're going to hell." The Gospel cannot get any more twisted.

I will not waste any more time with this distraction.

[Lone Ranger]

14 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Oh dear! Thats terrible!

The short answer is that I recognize that not everyone will agree with this point of view, and it MAY be unique to SDA, as opposed to orthodox Christianity.

[8thdaypriest]

1 Timothy 6:15-16   "which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen." (NKJ)

John 6:46 "Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father." (NKJ)

It appears God the Father is the ONLY IMMORTAL BEING.  We may live forever if we receive life from Him, through Christ.  

Satan and his angels are spirit beings.   Spirit beings must literally be confined, or must be destroyed in a special way.  The "Lake of Fire" was created especially for their destruction.  

On 11/10/2018 at 10:25 PM, JoeMo said:

Then I read Rev. 20:10:

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

The words "forever and ever" are from the Greek, and mean "unto the age of the ages".   We just don't know how long that will be.   It would seem logical that spirit beings would last longer in the "lake of fire" than would human beings. 
 

[8thdaypriest]

On 11/10/2018 at 10:25 PM, JoeMo said:

Rev. 20:10:

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

The Beast is NOT JUST ONE PERSON.  The Beast power is a whole global empire - consisting of perhaps billions.  

The "terrible beast " does not even EXIST on the earth, until the last days. 

The "false prophet" is NOT JUST ONE PERSON.  The false prophet is a whole system of false teaching in the name of God. 

Both are thrown into "the lake of fire" @ the Second Coming.  

Hence my belief that thousands (perhaps millions) who knowingly lived in rebellion against God and His Son, will be resurrected to face judgment and then "the lake of fire" AT THE GLORIOUS RETURN.

It does not make sense to think the Lord would retrieve them out of the "lake of fire" - to execute them AGAIN - at the end of the 1000 years.  

[8thdaypriest]

We are told that "the lake of fire" was made for Satan and his angels.   Does that make it a literal specific "lake" that is located at some specific place in God's universe?  

Is it possible this "lake of fire" is simply the present creation (the heavens and the earth) which will "perish" and "burn up" at the end of the age? 

Only those rescued/redeemed from this present creation, will live on (in new spiritual bodies) in a new creation. 

Hebrews 1:10-12   And: "You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 11 They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment; 12 Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail." (NKJ)

"The lake" is described as a "lake of fire and brimstone".   Brimstone is burning elements.  This earth and the planets and the stars are composed of elements.   I think this may describe the destruction of this ENTIRE CREATION. 

Some say "the earth" only refers to "the land" area promised to Abraham - only that area will be "burned up".   Hebrews 1:10-12  includes both "the heavens" and "the earth" - everything that was created "in the beginning".  

I think it fitting that Satan and his angels would be consumed with the creation he ruined.   If this created universe is slowly sucked into a giant sort of black hole, such a destruction would seem to last "forever and ever".  I've heard from Nova science films, that the "event horizon" makes "time" seem to stop.   The Greek does allow for "You will roll them up" - like rolling up an old tent.  And Revelation does say, ""the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up".  

[8thdaypriest]

Has anyone seen a verse which describes a resurrection from "the lake of fire"?  I don't know of one. 

If one is DEAD, then in order to LIVE again, one must be resurrected. 

I've been dialoging with a Universalist.   She is adamant that the "lake of fire" is only cleansing fire.  It burns out the sin, without actually killing the person (or angel). 

I asked her,  why then, is it called "the second death"?   If it is death - then there must be resurrection if one is to go on living.

She said it is only a spiritual death - such as we die in Christ.   I pointed out that we are also "raised with Christ, to walk in newness of life". 

I pointed out the sin against the Holy Spirit, which is not forgiven - either in this age, or in the age to come (Matt 12:32).  

She says the "lake of fire" is to burn out un-forgiven sin.   If sin is not forgiven, then it must be burned out.   Forgiven sin is cleansed by blood.  Un-forgiven is cleansed by fire. 

I can agree that God's creation will be cleansed by fire.  But those who refuse the cleansing by blood will be burned up - along with this first creation.

She then points to some who will be refined "in fire" and come through the fire. 

I point out those verses are speaking of those who hold on to faith despite persecution and pain.  Things of no value in their lives are left behind. 

I've never seen anything like her distortions and misuse of verses.  It's exhausting. 

[Kevin H]

16 hours ago, The Wanderer said:

Well; I definitely have a number of questions about the content of your post here. May I ask where you got this quote from that I am citing? That seems like a good place to start. Is this your opinion, that you are summing up from something you read, or do you have some Bible texts that you could use to help us flesh this out some?

I am not sure it is "wrong" to view the "hellfire" as NOT burning forever, because in the literal sense, Bible texts regarding this denote a "fire" that does burn to the point of extinction of said people concerned, but it is "everlasting" in the sense of the burning has the permanent result of separation from God, with no "second chance" after the second resurrection of "the wicked."

I will have to come back here to explain more, and include references, but I thought my comment for now would get us started?

These ideas have been in the Adventist community for quite some time. There was an Elder Fifefield in the 1800s who was at least close if not here. And he was a good friend of the Whites. During the 1920's Dr. Lynn Harper Wood developed this from his study of the scriptures and Mrs. White and taught it in our schools. Paul Heubech  was one of his students and spent his career teaching this. (I can't think of his name right now but the guy who started the "God does not kill" heard this from Paul Heubech but took it to an extreme and has a partial truth).  I learned this from the Theology faculty at Atlantic Union College (although I put it in my own words).

Lynn Wood came to PUC for a week of prayer when Graham Maxwell and Jack Provonsha were students. They both said that Wood's week of prayer was the most impressive week of prayer that they ever attended. Neither remembers learning anything that week that set their thoughts along this way of thinking, but after PUC they both developed a similar theology.

Over in England Jonathan Gallager come to a similar view from his study of Mrs. White, and behind the iron curtain Daniel Dudah was allowed by the communists to get an M. Div from a Lutheran seminary. He brought a large amount of Mrs. White's writings and decided to compare and contrast what he was learning at the Lutheran Seminary with Mrs. White and he also developed from her writings . My professors at AUC developed it independently from each other and was not influenced by any of the others such as Lynn Wood, or the others listed here.

So this was formed by different Adventists over our history in different parts of the world independently from each other.

[JoeMo]

On 11/11/2018 at 9:43 AM, Kevin H said:

he second understanding is that hell fire is the fire we see in the Bible to describe the glory of God, God's love, power, beauty.  ... For some this will be heaven and eternal life, for others it will be horrible and end up destroying them.

I haven't read to the bottom of the thread yet; but at first glance, I disagree with this.  I think it is much simpler.  The glory of God does not destroy the saints because they have indestructible immortal bodies.The glory of God destroys the unrighteous because they have mortal, destructible bodies.

 

 

[JoeMo]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The words "forever and ever" are from the Greek, and mean "unto the age of the ages".   We just don't know how long that will be.

The dragon is thrown into the lake of fire in the 8th millennium.  I've always thought that the age after the millennium extends into eternity.  Besides that, the False Prophet and Beast have already been suffering in the lake of fire for 1,000 years by the time satan is thrown in.  If they all die the second death at some period in time, what justifies the false prophet and beast suffering 1,000 longer than satan - their master?

 

On 11/10/2018 at 9:25 PM, JoeMo said:

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Rev. 20:10)

I think all of us agree (the SDAs, at least) that all of the unrighteous humans die the second death at the Judgement.  Scripture says the condemned suffer eternal punishMENT; not eternal punishING.  Complete destruction and oblivion is as permanent of a punishment as you can receive. But it appears that the entities referred to in the OP are tormented forever.

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I've never seen anything like her distortions and misuse of verses.  It's exhausting.

Most Universalists are blind to the degree to which God holds  free will sacred.

[8thdaypriest]

On 11/12/2018 at 3:10 PM, Kevin H said:

These ideas have been in the Adventist community for quite some time. There was an Elder Fifefield in the 1800s who was at least close if not here. And he was a good friend of the Whites. During the 1920's Dr. Lynn Harper Wood developed this from his study of the scriptures and Mrs. White and taught it in our schools. Paul Heubech  was one of his students and spent his career teaching this. (I can't think of his name right now but the guy who started the "God does not kill" heard this from Paul Heubech but took it to an extreme and has a partial truth).  I learned this from the Theology faculty at Atlantic Union College (although I put it in my own words).

Lynn Wood came to PUC for a week of prayer when Graham Maxwell and Jack Provonsha were students. They both said that Wood's week of prayer was the most impressive week of prayer that they ever attended. Neither remembers learning anything that week that set their thoughts along this way of thinking, but after PUC they both developed a similar theology.

Over in England Jonathan Gallager come to a similar view from his study of Mrs. White, and behind the iron curtain Daniel Dudah was allowed by the communists to get an M. Div from a Lutheran seminary. He brought a large amount of Mrs. White's writings and decided to compare and contrast what he was learning at the Lutheran Seminary with Mrs. White and he also developed from her writings . My professors at AUC developed it independently from each other and was not influenced by any of the others such as Lynn Wood, or the others listed here.

So this was formed by different Adventists over our history in different parts of the world independently from each other.

Thanks for that short list Kevin. 

I used to listen to a lot of Maxwell ("Can God be Trusted?") and Provonsha back in the day.  I do believe that natural consequences account for a whopping lot of the destruction and pain suffered by the disobedient in this world.  Some happen when we just don't follow instructions.  "Brush your teeth comes to mind."

Some happen when the LORD withdraws His special protection - leaving us to be attacked by our enemies (Satan included).

    1 Corinthians 10:10   Those Israelites who murmured against God in the wilderness were “destroyed by the destroyer.”  “The destroyer” is Satan.

In every case, the LORD assumes responsibility for what has happened.  He always says, "I did it".

There are ALSO examples of God's special execution of some seriously rebellious persons.   Nadab and Abihu -  Korah, Dathan and Abiram and the 250 rebellious princes.  "Fire" flashed from the pillar of the cloud/fire.  That was the LORD's direct action.  

I have noticed that the "lake of fire" is NOT CALLED God's "wrath", whereas the 7 last plagues  are called the "full" wrath of God unmixed with mercy.  

Wonder why the "lake of fire" would NOT be called "wrath".